257 replies to this topic

[DivineEvil]

Ed Steele, on 26 October 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

First off, congratulations on being one of the rare few people who actually use "I could NOT care less" correctly!

It's the perk of someone who had learned english as his secondary one, I guess .

Quote

Secondly, all players will never be "equal" even if all mechs are completely the same (which would be boring as hell), since no one / computer / internet connection is equal, this is just silliness (the same silliness that infects many leftwing nut jobs, but this is a different discussion). This game is supposed to simulate a battle, in battle evenly matched forces are a very rare luxury.

I do not consider factors as these. We can as well add the skill difference into it, but without much bragging you should understand it's not something what PGI team is capable of or expected to deal with, as it is completely outside of the game.

What I meant by that, of course, is that each player has to have equal chances to do his thing in battle roughly as good as someone else with similar mech for similar playstyle. Clan players tend to pull up the emphasis on lore, which, like I said, is irrelevant for the competetive MMO environment, and I don't give a rat's ass about.

More often than not, it's all actually originates from their miserable believe, that Clan mechs worth more, or that Clan packages were more expensive, thus either way they're supposed to be outright better. First notion is ridiculous because, like I've already said, they're outfitted with better XLs, better FF and/or better Endo-Steel and armed with better weapons on the moment of purchase. Second notion is ridiculous for the same reason, with the addition of the fact, that any Clan package is basically a Omni-Package with unnecessary excess of identical base armatures, each of which can be elited with the same Omni-set and sold for C-Bills. For roughly the same level of flexibility, I'm expected to purchase every variant of a given chassis and keep them all, maintaining the additional number of Mech Bays occupied.

Edited by DivineEvil, 26 October 2015 - 09:29 PM.

[ShinVector]

DivineEvil, on 26 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

- Ghost Heat removal.
- Significantly reduced TTK and more engaging combat.

Hmmm... These two points kinda contradict each other.... 6PPC Stalker and the Direstar ? Aiyayai !

Oh wait.. Unless you really meant reducing Time to Kill... Then that's absolutely correct.. LOL.

Edited by ShinVector, 26 October 2015 - 09:32 PM.

[kka]

shad0w4life, on 26 October 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

10 v 12, rewards and match making becomes an issue (Unless it's restricted to CW) no one seems to take that in to account, Cbill rewards are already paltry, remove 2 mechs and less targets to shoot you're going to have people quitting from the grind.

If 10 vs 12 balances the ACTUAL GAMEPLAY I think balancing the rewards is easy.

Matchmaking will not be a issue. Just put 10 vs 10 clan, 12 vs 12 IS and 10 vs 12 clan vs IS in.

PGI please, can you at least TEST the 10 vs 12 in PST?

Edited by kka, 26 October 2015 - 09:34 PM.

[DivineEvil]

ShinVector, on 26 October 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

Hmmm... These two points kinda contradict each other.... 6PPC Stalker and the Direstar ? Aiyayai !

Oh wait.. Unless you really meant reducing Time to Kill... Then that's absolutely correct.. LOL.

Well, with reduced base heat capacity (-20 heat cap for IS, -30 for Clans), these mechs would in fact kill themselves very fast, no doubt about that.

Quote

Matchmaking will not be a issue. Just put 10 vs 10 clan, 12 vs 12 IS and 10 vs 12 clan vs IS in.

Which would mean that not only groups are now limited by weight limit, but they can only pick all IS or all Clan. And matchmaker will have to somehow figure out how to build a match with all these ******** prerequisites.

Aaah, good old days of 30 minutes matchmaking... bringing much nostalgias.

Edited by DivineEvil, 26 October 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[kka]

DivineEvil, on 26 October 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Which would mean that not only groups are now limited by weight limit, but they can only pick all IS or all Clan. And matchmaker will have to somehow figure out how to build a match with all these ******** prerequisites.

Point taken.

I was thinking the solo queue, where it would not be an issue, I think.

However, there are ways to fix the group queue too. The simplest (and the most brutal) is to allow only group sizes of 10 or 12.

[DivineEvil]

kka, on 26 October 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Point taken.

I was thinking the solo queue, where it would not be an issue, I think.

However, there are ways to fix the group queue too. The simplest (and the most brutal) is to allow only group sizes of 10 or 12.

Solo Queue is indeed a very simple basis for doing such things. Unfortunately for that solution, MWO in its inherent nature is a teamwork-based game. Unlike conventional shooters like CS or CoD, where each player is essentially the same guy with a set of guns, there's a lot of space for cooperation and role warfare, which are central to the depth of the gameplay. In regular FPS, teamwork in practice is secondary to pretty much anything and personal performance with guns and tools is the axis around which every player evaluate himself. As close as any FPS before came to the MWO's reliance on cooperation is Team Fortress, perhaps. In all of those games, there's no such thing as "other side", only different guns with modest variation of FLD/Reliability and DPS/Accuracy ratios.

Limiting group sizes to 10-12 is just brutal... The more I imagine it working in practice, the more I understand how it is going to ruin everything in Group Queue for everyone.

No, as long as I'll keep any interest in MWO at all, I'll keep to the idea, that the best and the most simple solution is to make Clan and IS mechs roughly equal in potential, while keeping them conceptually different. It's the only way I see random queue fair for new players and veterans alike, and Community Warfare equally demanding and interesting on both fronts.

Edited by DivineEvil, 26 October 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

DivineEvil, on 26 October 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

Solo Queue is indeed a very simple basis for doing such things. Unfortunately for that solution, MWO in its inherent nature is a teamwork-based game. Unlike conventional shooters like CS or CoD, where each player is essentially the same guy with a set of guns, there's a lot of space for cooperation and role warfare, which are central to the depth of the gameplay. In regular FPS, teamwork in practice is secondary to pretty much anything and personal performance with guns and tools is the axis around which every player evaluate himself. As close as any FPS before came to the MWO's reliance on cooperation is Team Fortress, perhaps. In all of those games, there's no such thing as "other side", only different guns with modest variation of FLD/Reliability and DPS/Accuracy ratios.

Limiting group sizes to 10-12 is just brutal... The more I imagine it working in practice, the more I understand how it is going to ruin everything in Group Queue for everyone.

No, as long as I'll keep any interest in MWO at all, I'll keep to the idea, that the best and the most simple solution is to make Clan and IS mechs roughly equal in potential, while keeping them conceptually different. It's the only way I see random queue fair for new players and veterans alike, and Community Warfare equally demanding and interesting on both fronts.

Group and Solo queue are not the problem, since either side can take Clan, or IS; it is only in CW where the perceived imbalance is. CW is the perfect place to enforce 10 v 12 and to greatly increase rewards for Clan players who fight one on one, or who "bid" down to lighter mechs.

[DivineEvil]

Ed Steele, on 26 October 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

Group and Solo queue are not the problem, since either side can take Clan, or IS; it is only in CW where the perceived imbalance is. CW is the perfect place to enforce 10 v 12 and to greatly increase rewards for Clan players who fight one on one, or who "bid" down to lighter mechs.

Perhaps, but the major imbalance between IS and Clan mechs makes former essentialy worthless. In theory, if PGI would officially deny the concept of IS/Clan balancing as a thing, IS mechs will be phased out of both Queues. This will result in a far less interesting matches for everyone, including Clan players. Large portion of current designer's content would become redundant and future content futile. IS mechs will only remain in posession of IS zealots as collectibles or machines used specifically for private matches and leagues, and new players, who will not be able to afford them. For both given parties, public queue gameplay will turn into a literal purgatory, where ratio of Clan-to-IS mechs will skyrocket beyond reason. IS mechs on a field will be considered as nothing but cannon fodder. This situation is already slowly coming into fruition, kept in check only by the notion of upcoming rebalancing and ridiculously bloated quirks. Imbalance is everywhere, no matter when or how it is percieved. There's simply no justified reason for using IS mechs, unless it's a meta-game overquirked one-trick-pony.

In CW, it might have an effect, but again, it's a surrender to the imbalance, not a solution for it. For many IS units atm, CW is essentialy dead because Ebon Jaguars and Arctic Cheetahs are unchallenged. It's unlikely that the difference in numbers will practically allow IS to compete, it will only increase the amount of damage one Clan player would be able to get.

Most of all, solutions like these would follow the unfortunate pattern of earlier MWO development; Decisions, that are too focused on patchworking some particular issues, but giving way to even more issues as result. Community Warfare is a specific game-mode, which is not even shaped-out to a significant extent, so it's not a good foundation for propagating balance in general. It is not the point why CW is bad to begin with.

Scale of the solution must resemble the scale of a problem.

[NocturnalBeast]

DivineEvil, on 26 October 2015 - 11:35 PM, said:

Perhaps, but the major imbalance between IS and Clan mechs makes former essentialy worthless. In theory, if PGI would officially deny the concept of IS/Clan balancing as a thing, IS mechs will be phased out of both Queues. This will result in a far less interesting matches for everyone, including Clan players. Large portion of current designer's content would become redundant and future content futile. IS mechs will only remain in posession of IS zealots as collectibles or machines used specifically for private matches and leagues, and new players, who will not be able to afford them. For both given parties, public queue gameplay will turn into a literal purgatory, where ratio of Clan-to-IS mechs will skyrocket beyond reason. IS mechs on a field will be considered as nothing but cannon fodder. This situation is already slowly coming into fruition, kept in check only by the notion of upcoming rebalancing and ridiculously bloated quirks. Imbalance is everywhere, no matter when or how it is percieved. There's simply no justified reason for using IS mechs, unless it's a meta-game overquirked one-trick-pony.

In CW, it might have an effect, but again, it's a surrender to the imbalance, not a solution for it. For many IS units atm, CW is essentialy dead because Ebon Jaguars and Arctic Cheetahs are unchallenged. It's unlikely that the difference in numbers will practically allow IS to compete, it will only increase the amount of damage one Clan player would be able to get.

Most of all, solutions like these would follow the unfortunate pattern of earlier MWO development; Decisions, that are too focused on patchworking some particular issues, but giving way to even more issues as result. Community Warfare is a specific game-mode, which is not even shaped-out to a significant extent, so it's not a good foundation for propagating balance in general. It is not the point why CW is bad to begin with.

Scale of the solution must resemble the scale of a problem.

Actually Clan mechs are already nerfed to the point where they are not an unbeatable threat. I can not count how many times that I have easily taken out overheated clan mechs. Yeah, they might hit me a couple times before I can get into range, but then they are generally easier to take out than other IS mechs. In BATTLETECH, there have always been mechs that were better than others, better designs, newer, older (Lostech). It was always the pilots in BATTLETECH who overcame the odds, or died.

[BazzOOka]

Hello. I'm a Mechwarrior fan from way back; I played the original board game and all the PC versions that came out. It was without doubt my favorite game. Having now played MWO i am both pleased and displeased with some aspects of the game, but I accept not everyone can be pleased all of the time.
The mismatch between Clan and IS mechs is imperative so as to maintain the historical significance of the original game. War in every sence of the word is not balanced, however the "underdog" usually finds a way to overcome the odds. But this was not overcome by telling the more advanced enemy to remove some weapons or reduce their engine speed. That's ludicrous, as is the idea to nerf Clan mechs in any way.

Clan mechs are now the benchmark and the challenge should be making the IS mechs more competitive instead of the other way round.

Think of what happens on the battlefield as it is played now... The winning team gets salvage. One idea would be to give pilots of IS mechs the ability to train for the "Operate Clan Weapons" skill which would then allow them to install and operate Clan weapons that where salvaged from the battlefield after having won a battle that contained Clan Mechs.

Also IS mechs can be given an extra module and their own sub-set of modules, for instance, 50% faster target lock and identification of Clan mechs, 25% longer scanner range against Clan mechs, ect ect. Use your immagination.

I think what is important here is to NOT ruin the gaming experience for one group to satisfy the other. Nerfing has never been good for gaming morale.

We all need to accept the most important part of any game is the game play and by over balancing you will just negate the need to have anything other than 1 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy and 1 assault mech to choose from. The game needs this mismatch but I think is could be overcome by giving the IS pilots more specific "anti-clan" skills" and give them the opportunity to use Clan equipment salvaged from the battlefield....

TERF THE NERF I say.

Thanks for your time.

[REDACTED]

Edited by Scout Derek, 27 October 2015 - 11:17 AM.
Copy/Paste Multiple times.

[Wing 0]

To PGI. *kisses and hugs followed by a big FK YOU!* You don't have a clue. The recent change to groups in public queue brought back something you never wanted again but you did. PGI you brought back a phantom of a past long gone without trying or breaking it yourselves. Using 3rd party media like twitter and telling us you plan to screw us over after paying so much on this game. what a farce. so many people spent a lot here and now you intend to backstab us. weak.

Russ. You know what Steve Jobs did to one of his developers when the guy claimed he wouldn't fix it in time before their presentation in 1984? He would call out the names of who did what and would also call out those who fked up when they couldn't get something to work right. He basically called out a Russian Roulette on the guy. I am seeing that with this but with PGI having that "roulette to its head". I call you out in a vote of NO CONFIDENCE. People on steam might never bother to touch this game at this point with the incompetent changes that have been going on recently if it were put on steam now.

[BazzOOka]

Sorry everyone, It was not my intention to post my previous post 3 times. My bad.

[Elizander]

The basic question is:

"Should we bring IS up to Clan levels, bring Clan down to IS levels, or find a median in between for both?"

IS Standard Engines are a penalty in itself. Lower speed, lower twist rate, less weapons. If you want to see what a Direwolf looks like minus 9.5 tons of pod space you might not enjoy the results.

I'd rather go halfway. First we'll balance IS/Clan XL by making them both not kill the mech on one ST loss. (IS engine bigger, sturdier so yeah it takes 4 crits to blow up instead of 3). Each crit to the engine removes 3 Heat Sinks and reduces Engine Rating by 10%. This makes an IS XL Mech have -9 Engine DHS and -30% Engine Rating (300 XL will perform like a 210XL) and this makes Clan XL mechs have -6 Engine DHS and -20% Engine Rating (300 XL will perform like 240XL).

So an IS mech will keep moving when the ST is lost with an XL engine on but will be slower and run hotter than a clan mech that loses its ST. This will also heavily penalize Laservomit because you're not gonna do much wub when you lose your 6-9 engine DHS.

TL;DR

• IS/Clan mechs with XL don't die from one ST loss.
  
• When ST is lost on an XL mech, IS lose 9 DHS and 30% engine rating while Clans lose 6 DHS and 20% engine rating.

[Kin3ticX]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 25 October 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

Well a interesting point was brought to my attention on Twitter Im going to copy/pasta the convo here n let y'all decide whats up.

• 
  
  
  
  

  45]

  
  
  
  
  VoodooLou ‏[color=#B1BBC3]@[/color]VoodooLou1 22m22 minutes ago
  [color=#BDA3E0]@[/color]VXJaeger [color=#BDA3E0]@[/color]russ_bullock Wonderful. So does this mean that I can ask for a refund? 'Hey lets F**k over ppl who pay more for mechs!
  

• 45]

VoodooLou‏[color=#8899A6][color=#B1BBC3]@[/color]VoodooLou1[/color]


[color=#BDA3E0]@[/color]VXJaeger [color=#BDA3E0]@[/color]russ_bullock Better to scrap Clan mechs altogether n refund everyones money who bought them





[color=#8899A6]10:11 AM - 25 Oct 2015[/color]
VoodooLou ‏[color=#B1BBC3]@[/color]VoodooLou1 22m
22 minutes ago
[color=#BDA3E0]@[/color]VXJaeger [color=#BDA3E0]@[/color]russ_bullock To me it means that when I pay more for a CB than both a marauder and warhammer pack combined Ive been F**cked[/color]

Those tweets look pretty idiotic. Who is the author? I Don't understand how someone can send such negative msgs to Russ without getting insta-blocked.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 27 October 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

SkippyT72, on 25 October 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

Want to screw over clan mechs more, I'm ok with that BUT only if you remove the ability of the IS to use mech lab and make them take stock and varient mechs like the lore actually calls for. People paid more for Clan mechs for all kinds of reason, but the fact of the matter is the DID pay more real world cash and should not continue to be screwed over because some folks continue to rant about how un balanced this game is basically because they refuse to use teamwork and get better as a team.

Honestly these kinds of posts show low credibility and prove a lack of objectivity. You are evaluating the state of the game based on "because lore says" and because "I paid money" and not showing actual understanding of the game.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 27 October 2015 - 01:51 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

As for Russ's tweet on Clan XLs, a change like that would not be simple as it also brings into question the various omnimech hardlocks like the engine size. It would have to be a series of changes. I suspect they are concerned how to balance not only omnimechs but also non-omnis (including ones we dont know about). Its tricky and is probably the reason for the whole PTS grand rebalance thing they have been working on since ~June. Quirks were the politically easy route but also a dead end so now they are thinking about pre-quirkening balance again.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 27 October 2015 - 02:02 AM.

[Nightshade24]

ChapeL, on 26 October 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Be careful what you ask for... some of those early IS Omnis come hardwired with single Heat sinks

But the first few are some of the only ones with DHS in the next decades... Sure owens a much later light mech has SHS... but the Raptor (the first) has DHS...

Btw, Single heatsinks getting buffed next patch to the point it actually has more unique advantages besides reduced crit/ more durrability/ water helps. My urbanmech will actually be happy to switch to SHS...

[Mogul]

Clan XL engines, well aren't they a conundrum wrapped in an enigma of a conundrum. I personally think if an ST goes on a clan mech it should get a 25% speed penalty and a 20% heat penalty. This should be enough to "realistically" represent the damage caused, I cant believe anyone thinks that losing 1/3 of your engine should mean no effect on the overall mech, even if you did pay for it, like other people paid for IS mechs who may get stomped regularly (CW). On a side note, anyone who has read any of the books associated with BT, do you remember the passages where the clan mechs get severely damaged and just carried on as if nothing happened? Because I don't. I'll play regardless of how its handled in future, even if a clan mechs gets a 50% speed increase if it loses both torsos, at the end of the day its a game.

[SkippyT72]

Elizander, on 27 October 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

The basic question is:

"Should we bring IS up to Clan levels, bring Clan down to IS levels, or find a median in between for both?"

IS Standard Engines are a penalty in itself. Lower speed, lower twist rate, less weapons. If you want to see what a Direwolf looks like minus 9.5 tons of pod space you might not enjoy the results.

I'd rather go halfway. First we'll balance IS/Clan XL by making them both not kill the mech on one ST loss. (IS engine bigger, sturdier so yeah it takes 4 crits to blow up instead of 3). Each crit to the engine removes 3 Heat Sinks and reduces Engine Rating by 10%. This makes an IS XL Mech have -9 Engine DHS and -30% Engine Rating (300 XL will perform like a 210XL) and this makes Clan XL mechs have -6 Engine DHS and -20% Engine Rating (300 XL will perform like 240XL).

So an IS mech will keep moving when the ST is lost with an XL engine on but will be slower and run hotter than a clan mech that loses its ST. This will also heavily penalize Laservomit because you're not gonna do much wub when you lose your 6-9 engine DHS.

TL;DR

• IS/Clan mechs with XL don't die from one ST loss.
  
• When ST is lost on an XL mech, IS lose 9 DHS and 30% engine rating while Clans lose 6 DHS and 20% engine rating.

Something like this may work if you lose all quirks when using a xl engine because with the current quirks AND the extra tonnage of the XL the IS mechs would be unstoppable.

[SkippyT72]

Kin3ticX, on 27 October 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

Honestly these kinds of posts show low credibility and prove a lack of objectivity. You are evaluating the state of the game based on "because lore says" and because "I paid money" and not showing actual understanding of the game.

I understand the game after playing it for years, my point is the simple fact that PGI greatly inflated the price of the clan mechs and I. Doing so promised a product that now whiners what to make unviable after people paid real world cash for. Now they want to meet them even more than what has already been done then a refund or the removal of all positive quirks for the IS mechs seems to be in order. You may have the extra cash that it does not matter to you as far as getting what you were promised when you paid for it, but frankly I don't enjoy being sold a Porsche and ending up with a VW. The lore comment is because that excuse is used when some off the wall change is thrown out there like TT values but only to nerf or add more penalties to mechs the most vocal whiners scream about, been happening since closed beta and got worse when open beta started.

Edited by SkippyT72, 27 October 2015 - 06:26 AM.