101 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 October 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

How would you prefer we played?

I don't really care how you all play myself, just see a lot of T1's complaining about how boring it is to be in the alpha only game.

Personally I prefer sustained damage output with a bit less front loaded damage, reaps higher rewards and just makes for far more interesting brawls/skirmishes.

[Alistair Winter]

ExplicitContent, on 27 October 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

I have yet to build any combination, and I have tried many of the mechs suggested, that out perform the TDR-5SS. That being said and my own recognition of it being OP, should I now desire it to be nerfed? The answer is no. I mostly run clan tech and that is one of the few IS mechs that I have to be really careful around.

Right now, I think it's kind of pointless to talk about which builds or mechs should be nerfed, because PGI is planning to change all the quirks completely and remove most weapon quirks. So whatever the players may think, PGI is already well underway implementing their own change and we have no idea how it'll turn out.

The safe money is on TBR still being OP, because PGI hasn't really shown any signs that they've found a way to make IS mechs compete with Clan mechs without weapon quirks. Clan mechs have been brutal in both recent PTS sessions.

Widowmaker1981, on 27 October 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

With tonnage limits being a thing now, and therefore heavier mechs having more opportunity cost, do you think its right that a light SHOULD compete with a heavy? That only makes sense in the solo queue now.

I think PGI really needs to decide whether all mechs are supposed to be equal or not. Ever since 2012, they've been undecided, and the game has been in a weird middle ground where "some mechs are more equal than others", and yet there's no consistent game mechanic (e.g. an equivalent of BV) to deal with this.

If some mechs are supposed to be inferior, there needs to be a game mechanism to counterbalance this. For example, CounterStrike has some weapons that are blatantly inferior. But they're also cheaper. So you can buy them pretty fast, even if you die more often. R&R used to have a similar function, but it didn't really work, for a variety of reasons. One reason is that we have no cap on C-bills, so if you just play the game enough, repair bills don't matter anymore. And unlike CounterStrike, MWO isn't really based on a series of matches involving the same players. Not intentionally, anyway.

Whether all mechs are equal or assault mechs are supposed to be better than light mechs, I don't care. I just wish PGI would make their mind up and build a game around a clear vision of class balance, just like other PVP combat games.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 27 October 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

I don't think too many people know what OP means in this context. OP means overpowered. The "most OP" build is the build that is most powerful. In other words, if you put two pilots of roughly equal skill in two different mechs, the guy in the "most OP build" will normally win.

If your answer is the gauss+laser or pure laservomit TBR, EBJ and/or Stormcrow, you are correct. The pulse boating Thunderbolt and Banshee are also good answers. The Dire Wolf is a good answer if you mean the group queue. In the pug queue, the Dire Wolf is at the mercy of the Gods of Mount Puglympus. It's a feast or famine mech.

If your answer was the ACH or Firestarter, you either misunderstood the question or don't know how this game works. They are arguably the two best light mechs in the game, by a good margin, yes. But they are not consistently the highest scoring mechs on the battlefield and their score is often 'artificially' enhanced by their ability to pick off weak targets (i.e. dumb opponents who got isolated). If you put a laservomit TBR up against a ACH or Firestarter, the light mech will be legged faster than you can say 'coolshot'.

The SPL ACH is just very powerful in one particular setting, just like many dual gauss builds or UAC5-boating builds. But its lack of versatility and its inability to deal with the actual OP builds, like the laservomit Timber, disqualify it from being a candidate.

People have grown so accustomed to light mechs being the least effective weight class in MWO that they lose their minds when new light mechs are actually able to compete with heavy mechs.

Fun fact: Competitive players used to prefer the 5 ML Firestarter over the 8 SPL Firestarter because the longer range let them keep a safer distance from the big boys, which when played by skilled opponents would tear apart their lights rather quickly. I'm not sure what the compie boys use nowadays on their FS9's, but I'm going to guess it's either still the 5 ML or maybe it moved to that variant with the pretty big MPL heat reduction.

I'm going to assume that when they get their hands on Cheetos, builds like 4 ERML might be more favored with such players for the same reasons.

[DrxAbstract]

Alistair Winter, on 27 October 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

I don't think too many people know what OP means in this context. OP means overpowered. The "most OP" build is the build that is most powerful. In other words, if you put two pilots of roughly equal skill in two different mechs, the guy in the "most OP build" will normally win.

If your answer is the gauss+laser or pure laservomit TBR, EBJ and/or Stormcrow, you are correct. The pulse boating Thunderbolt and Banshee are also good answers. The Dire Wolf is a good answer if you mean the group queue. In the pug queue, the Dire Wolf is at the mercy of the Gods of Mount Puglympus. It's a feast or famine mech.

If your answer was the ACH or Firestarter, you either misunderstood the question or don't know how this game works. They are arguably the two best light mechs in the game, by a good margin, yes. But they are not consistently the highest scoring mechs on the battlefield and their score is often 'artificially' enhanced by their ability to pick off weak targets (i.e. dumb opponents who got isolated). If you put a laservomit TBR up against a ACH or Firestarter, the light mech will be legged faster than you can say 'coolshot'.

The SPL ACH is just very powerful in one particular setting, just like many dual gauss builds or UAC5-boating builds. But its lack of versatility and its inability to deal with the actual OP builds, like the laservomit Timber, disqualify it from being a candidate.

People have grown so accustomed to light mechs being the least effective weight class in MWO that they lose their minds when new light mechs are actually able to compete with heavy mechs.

The contextual use of 'OP' in this regard largely disqualifies your points: Your initial claim was "equal skill pilots in different mechs" and then expanded the specifications to pug and group play among teammates. So which is it - 1 on 1 fights or in team play? Laser vomit builds are not 'OP' in many 1v1 scenarios, meaning they do not meet the requirements of the aforementioned label because AC heavy builds like the Dire or KGC as well as cooler running IS counterparts like the 5SS or Grasshopper 5N in a 1v1 will wreck laser TBRs and EBNs , especially on hot maps because those builds require team support to distract or occupy opponents and keep them from focusing on or overrunning you, allowing you to utilize your weapons and accommodate the heat output as they are not even remotely the best 'brawlers'.

AHCs and Firestarters in my games have consistently had lower scores than the laser vomit Timbies, Crows, Hellbies or Jaguars, but this does nothing to show their real contribution. Their support was easily more valuable than the other 'Mechs due largely in part to the fact they exercise a much higher level of mobility to flank and deal real damage at the same time to keep your opponents off balance. This makes them far more 'OP' in a team setting. 4 AHC/FS9s will wreak a hell of a lot more havok than 4 laser Timbies, but 4 v 4 directly? I wouldnt have the same expectations of them as that's one hell of a tonnage difference.

There arent any end-all-be-all OP mechs because, as I said, AC Dires/KGCs will wreck laser Timbies/Jags/Hellbies, and AHCs/FS9s will wreck AC Dires/KGCs. /shrug

[Dino Might]

And Ember with Gauss rifle will wreck them all.

Mo' Gauss!

[Clit Beastwood]

sycocys, on 27 October 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

I don't really care how you all play myself, just see a lot of T1's complaining about how boring it is to be in the alpha only game.

Personally I prefer sustained damage output with a bit less front loaded damage, reaps higher rewards and just makes for far more interesting brawls/skirmishes.

After a certain point though, you *have* to adjust your playstyle. Meta's boring, but dying and losing a lot isn't much fun either.

[Alistair Winter]

DrxAbstract, on 27 October 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

The contextual use of 'OP' in this regard largely disqualifies your points: Your initial claim was "equal skill pilots in different mechs" and then expanded the specifications to pug and group play among teammates. So which is it - 1 on 1 fights or in team play?

It's both.

DrxAbstract, on 27 October 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Laser vomit builds are not 'OP' in many 1v1 scenarios, meaning they do not meet the requirements of the aforementioned label because AC heavy builds like the Dire or KGC as well as cooler running IS counterparts like the 5SS or Grasshopper 5N in a 1v1 will wreck laser TBRs and EBNs , especially on hot maps because those builds require team support to distract or occupy opponents and keep them from focusing on or overrunning you, allowing you to utilize your weapons and accommodate the heat output as they are not even remotely the best 'brawlers'.

Even if this was correct, the Thunderbolt and Grasshopper are almost always played as laservomit. So you're basically just comparing top laservomit builds.

Furthermore, I'm not discounting the fact that many builds (such as the AC KGC) have unique advantages in certain situations. But a Timber Wolf can defeat a UAC5 King Crab on a map like River City by having higher alpha / burst damage, popping in and out of cover to avoid sustained engagements. I don't really think there are any conditions under which the ACH or Firestarter has a real advantage over the best heavy mechs. Even at close range.

DrxAbstract, on 27 October 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

AHCs and Firestarters in my games have consistently had lower scores than the laser vomit Timbies, Crows, Hellbies or Jaguars, but this does nothing to show their real contribution. Their support was easily more valuable than the other 'Mechs due largely in part to the fact they exercise a much higher level of mobility to flank and deal real damage at the same time to keep your opponents off balance. This makes them far more 'OP' in a team setting. 4 AHC/FS9s will wreak a hell of a lot more havok than 4 laser Timbies, but 4 v 4 directly? I wouldnt have the same expectations of them as that's one hell of a tonnage difference.
There arent any end-all-be-all OP mechs because, as I said, AC Dires/KGCs will wreck laser Timbies/Jags/Hellbies, and AHCs/FS9s will wreck AC Dires/KGCs. /shrug

I must admit I haven't watched too many elite comp team matches on YouTube, but my impression is that in a match without any sort of weight or class limitations, the best teams would never drop with 4 ACHs. The amount of havoc they're able to wreak against good, coordinated teams is more limited than against pugs or less coordinated teams.

[ExplicitContent]

Ascaloth, on 27 October 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Blackjack 1X can do the same damage with 6ML+2MPL, but running at 116,8km/h.

So speed vs armor. Also, ML spreads damage a lot more than an MPL, especially against a moving target. I don't own the BJ-1X, so I don't know, but how much before it overheats? I have heard that is a solid chassis. but never heard someone calling it OP.

[Lugh]

FupDup, on 27 October 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

Fun fact: Competitive players used to prefer the 5 ML Firestarter over the 8 SPL Firestarter because the longer range let them keep a safer distance from the big boys, which when played by skilled opponents would tear apart their lights rather quickly. I'm not sure what the compie boys use nowadays on their FS9's, but I'm going to guess it's either still the 5 ML or maybe it moved to that variant with the pretty big MPL heat reduction.

I'm going to assume that when they get their hands on Cheetos, builds like 4 ERML might be more favored with such players for the same reasons.

Nope that runs way too hot. It's an OK build on the Cheeto, however with the ECM advantage the 6 CSPL is superior in every way. 6 more damage for 6 less heat.

That won't stop SOME from going the other way, but they aren't playing the current Highest firepower version. They can also do a single er ppc and some ? 3? cslers but again too hot most times and just inferior to the 6 cspl.

[C E Dwyer]

As mentioned Stormcrow, Timberwolf, but the real OP is the Artic Cheater

[Clit Beastwood]

ExplicitContent, on 27 October 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

So speed vs armor. Also, ML spreads damage a lot more than an MPL, especially against a moving target. I don't own the BJ-1X, so I don't know, but how much before it overheats? I have heard that is a solid chassis. but never heard someone calling it OP.

It's got a lot going for it (6ml 2mpl xl295 build):
- Is fast enough to get into trouble... but also fast enough to get back out if you plan your route of egress.
- Has high mounted energy, great at peeking.
- Torso twists pretty fast.
- With so many similar weapons, you can run right at that 98% heat level while still outputting *some* damage.
- Has enough armor to tolerate roughly one stupid mistake per drop.
- Massive damage potential.
- hitscan weapons means that it hurts people even when hitreg goes poopy.
- Not so much recently, but after running one for *months* it was generally ignored.

Working against it:
- If you're an alpha *****, its toasty.
- Pretty squishy, situational awareness is very important.
- You get *one* mistake per drop, after that one mistake you probably have an open orange side torso
- Is becoming a high priority target.
- Legs easy to trim.

[ExplicitContent]

Fierostetz, on 27 October 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

It's got a lot going for it (6ml 2mpl xl295 build):
- Is fast enough to get into trouble... but also fast enough to get back out if you plan your route of egress.
- Has high mounted energy, great at peeking.
- Torso twists pretty fast.
- With so many similar weapons, you can run right at that 98% heat level while still outputting *some* damage.
- Has enough armor to tolerate roughly one stupid mistake per drop.
- Massive damage potential.
- hitscan weapons means that it hurts people even when hitreg goes poopy.
- Not so much recently, but after running one for *months* it was generally ignored.

Working against it:
- If you're an alpha *****, its toasty.
- Pretty squishy, situational awareness is very important.
- You get *one* mistake per drop, after that one mistake you probably have an open orange side torso
- Is becoming a high priority target.
- Legs easy to trim.

To me, that doesn't sound OP, just a solid performer. Going to pick one up. It was actually the first mech I ever bought, but I sold it quickly and never revisited it.

[Clit Beastwood]

ExplicitContent, on 27 October 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

To me, that doesn't sound OP, just a solid performer. Going to pick one up. It was actually the first mech I ever bought, but I sold it quickly and never revisited it.

you should revisit it ;P

I went 6ml and 2mpl when they introduced ghost heat - with the advent of quirks I'd say the 1x isn't quite "broken" but its punching well above it's weight.

[ExplicitContent]

Fierostetz, on 27 October 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

you should revisit it ;P

I went 6ml and 2mpl when they introduced ghost heat - with the advent of quirks I'd say the 1x isn't quite "broken" but its punching well above it's weight.

Just did and took one out. Same build as what you recommended. First run out was match score of 322 (517 dmg). Team got curb stomped though. Which other 2 variants would you recommend, since now I will have to Master the little bugger

[DrxAbstract]

ExplicitContent, on 27 October 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Just did and took one out. Same build as what you recommended. First run out was match score of 322 (517 dmg). Team got curb stomped though. Which other 2 variants would you recommend, since now I will have to Master the little bugger

For C-Bills, the BJ-1DC with an AC20 and 3 MLas, and the BJ-3 with a PPC or two and assorted backups make for some jumpy fun. The Arrow for MC isnt half bad either.

[Solahma]

FYI, true quirked/moduled stats of Widow's two builds for comparison



You can make these comparisons yourself using my spreadsheet available here:
https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing


Or you can request a stat comparison, I'll post if if I notice the request.

Edited by Solahma, 27 October 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Water Bear]

What the hell is going on on the first page of this thread?

We want the most OP builds in the game. This isn't a soap box for you to brag about how well you do in certain 'mechs.

The most OP mech I can think of is the 4 UAC 10 dire.

[Jon Gotham]

My personl one recently:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c89ab33fcfb628b

Bad game (I make stupid error and die early) gives me around 450 ish.
So-so game was between 450-700
Better games were between 700-1200

Been told it's an awful build, but it just keeps on performing....

[Solahma]

Water Bear, on 27 October 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

The most OP mech I can think of is the 4 UAC 10 dire.

Ahem

[pwnface]

Water Bear, on 27 October 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

What the hell is going on on the first page of this thread?

We want the most OP builds in the game. This isn't a soap box for you to brag about how well you do in certain 'mechs.

The most OP mech I can think of is the 4 UAC 10 dire.

I run a 3xUAC5 2xUAC10 build that seems to work a lot better. It runs colder (easier to avoid ghost heat) and has slightly higher DPS.