101 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

pwnface, on 27 October 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I run a 3xUAC5 2xUAC10 build that seems to work a lot better. It runs colder (easier to avoid ghost heat) and has slightly higher DPS.

3 UAC10 2 UAC 5 is better than that! Have you tried it yet? It is pretty disgusting, and the heat is manageable.

[pwnface]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

3 UAC10 2 UAC 5 is better than that! Have you tried it yet? It is pretty disgusting, and the heat is manageable.

UAC10 ghost heat starts after 2. My build avoids it completely so I can just happily mash on my mouse and watch stuff die. 3xUAC10 2xUAC5 is obviously higher firepower, but you do have to sacrifice additional ammo/armor to run that loadout.

[FupDup]

Lugh, on 27 October 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

...however with the ECM advantage the 6 CSPL is superior in every way.

...Except for having less than half of the range.

In the "competitive" level where the enemy players are godlike in aim and positioning, getting up in their face without getting a hole ripped in you is a lot harder than in the solo queue.

Although I haven't heard actual specific testimony from competitive players (e.g. Adiuvo) regarding their current favored light builds, the fact that they have in the past preferred the Firestarter's midrange 5 ML build over the forum-whine 8 SPL build would suggest that a similar trend may appear with the Hankyu up at the "Peaks of Mount Tryhard."

Edited by FupDup, 27 October 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

ExplicitContent, on 27 October 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Just did and took one out. Same build as what you recommended. First run out was match score of 322 (517 dmg). Team got curb stomped though. Which other 2 variants would you recommend, since now I will have to Master the little bugger

sweet - now add a mpl range and ml cooldown for increased synergy and go stomp face!

I used to love the BJ1 with ac20 and 3ml, but its not really ideal any more. BJ3 with 2 ppc's and jj's is great with a group, but kinda tough solo. The arrow's ok, but its tough to recommend a MC mech purchase before the next balance pass hits. I wouldn't expect the arrow to get *worse* but you never know.

[Duke Nedo]

Solahma, on 27 October 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

FYI, true quirked/moduled stats of Widow's two builds for comparison



You can make these comparisons yourself using my spreadsheet available here:
https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing


Or you can request a stat comparison, I'll post if if I notice the request.

Though... if you assume that the EBJ keeps the Gauss going non-stop at 3.69 dps @ 0.25 hps and fires MLs when possible, it gets a sustained DPS of 8.33 instead of 6.79 if my pocket calculator serves me right...

[pwnface]

Duke Nedo, on 27 October 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Though... if you assume that the EBJ keeps the Gauss going non-stop at 3.69 dps @ 0.25 hps and fires MLs when possible, it gets a sustained DPS of 8.33 instead of 6.79 if my pocket calculator serves me right...

The burst DPS and shorter duration make the TDR-5SS more universally useful IMO. EBJ is great when you can sit back and poke the entire match.

[Solahma]

Duke Nedo, on 27 October 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Though... if you assume that the EBJ keeps the Gauss going non-stop at 3.69 dps @ 0.25 hps and fires MLs when possible, it gets a sustained DPS of 8.33 instead of 6.79 if my pocket calculator serves me right...

your concept of "shooting the ERML when possible" is basically what the Sustained DPS is. It's shooting all weapons, as quickly as possible, without overheating. There is a hidden advantage to ANY mech which is that small zone of a couple alphas going from 0 heat to max heat. That is captured by the MAX DPS and able to be maintained by the indicated "Time-to-overheat".

There is no value in trading effective weapons for a technically better Sustained DPS value, because it immediately takes way from another stat. If you lower the amount of ERML fired on the EBJ, the Sustained DPS goes up slightly, but your alpha and MAX DPS drops even faster.

EDIT: Let me clarify a little further. What you're idea of a better DPS value is a combination of Max DPS and sustained DPS.

• Max DPS is firing all weapons as fast as possible until you overheat
  
• Sustained DPS is how much damage you deal and NEVER overheat. It's your neutral heat damage.
  
• To get an accurate view of your DPS over... say 30 seconds, You will need to see how much damage you can spit out (Max DPS) until you get close to overheating, then how much damage you can do without crossing that capacity limit (Sustained DPS) for the remainder of the 30 seconds.
  
• You'll end up with a cross between Max and Sustained. But these are the only two DPS stats that matter.
  
• Sustained DPS takes precedence for an engagement lasting longer than the "time-to-overheat" value. Below that engagement time, the only thing that matters is Max DPS.

Edited by Solahma, 27 October 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Solahma, on 27 October 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

your concept of "shooting the ERML when possible" is basically what the Sustained DPS is. It's shooting all weapons, as quickly as possible, without overheating. There is a hidden advantage to ANY mech which is that small zone of a couple alphas going from 0 heat to max heat. That is captured by the MAX DPS and able to be maintained by the indicated "Time-to-overheat".

There is no value in trading effective weapons for a technically better Sustained DPS value, because it immediately takes way from another stat. If you lower the amount of ERML fired on the EBJ, the Sustained DPS goes up slightly, but your alpha and MAX DPS drops even faster.

EDIT: Let me clarify a little further. What you're idea of a better DPS value is a combination of Max DPS and sustained DPS.

• Max DPS is firing all weapons as fast as possible until you overheat
  
• Sustained DPS is how much damage you deal and NEVER overheat. It's your neutral heat damage.
  
• To get an accurate view of your DPS over... say 30 seconds, You will need to see how much damage you can spit out (Max DPS) until you get close to overheating, then how much damage you can do without crossing that capacity limit (Sustained DPS) for the remainder of the 30 seconds.
  
• You'll end up with a cross between Max and Sustained. But these are the only two DPS stats that matter.

Yeah, but this all assumes that you fire both weapon types equally much. My point is that if you focus on the heat-efficient weapon you'll be able to sustain a higher sustained dps than if you fire both groups to say 45% or whatever you can sustain (for example 100% gauss + 42% MLs may equal 45% gauss and 45% MLs in terms of heat which is much less dps if you see what I mean).

[Solahma]

Duke Nedo, on 27 October 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Yeah, but this all assumes that you fire both weapon types equally much.

Again, you are now lowering your build's possible Max DPS and/or Alpha. It's a give-take system. There is no way to artificially increase one without decreasing another. This is why both Max and Sustained are in the spreadsheet, so you can see how the mech would perform under such theoretical circumstances.

[Duke Nedo]

Again... I understand that, all I am saying is that the sustained dps in the spreadsheet like that does not describe anything real.

Alpha: has meaning, you do it in game
Burst dps: has meaning, you do it in game
Sustained dps: only has meaning if you fire the weapon groups in a way that you would in game, in other words firing the cold weapon non-stop and pulsing the hot weapon.

The reason I say it is because that's a rather big benefit of running gauss + lasers, that your gauss can always keep firing even if the rest of your build is hot. If you want to catch that benefit in the spreadsheet and give that parameter actual meaning one could take that into account.

Agree?

[Solahma]

Duke Nedo, on 27 October 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Again... I understand that, all I am saying is that the sustained dps in the spreadsheet like that does not describe anything real.

Solahma, on 27 October 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

• Sustained DPS is how much damage you deal and NEVER overheat. It's your neutral heat damage.
  
• Sustained DPS takes precedence for an engagement lasting longer than the "time-to-overheat" value. Below that engagement time, the only thing that matters is Max DPS.

Also, you just said "Alpha: has meaning, you do it in the game"

Sustained DPS is factoring your alpha damage and how often you can utilize it without overheating.

Gauss rifle efficiency is captured here and has value. It's basically free DPS without an impact to your heat. Sustained DPS already captures that fully.

[Duke Nedo]

Solahma, on 27 October 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Gauss rifle efficiency is captured here and has value. It's basically free DPS without an impact to your heat. Sustained DPS already captures that fully.

Last attempt.

Your sustained DPS is bundling gauss with lasers and therefore it does NOT capture the full free DPS of the gauss.

Your EBJ has a heat diss per sec of 4,23, and burst dps generates ~8.5 heat per sec. Your sustained DPS value just multiplies the fraction of that burst dps with the max dps, i.e. near exactly 50% of 13.25 = 6.63 sustained DPS.

If you want to take full advantage of the free Gauss DPS instead of just 50% of it, you'd need to subtract the Gauss HPS from the heat diss per sec, 4.23 - 0.24 and use the remaining 3.99 to see which fraction of the MLs you can use burst dps on = 48% instead of 50% which results in a real sustained DPS of 8.33 instead of 6.63.

In other words, 100% Gauss + 48% MLs generates the same heat as 50% gauss + 50% MLs. So, if you have any interest in describing how much dps you can sustain infinitely, the former is what you'd get out.

I'll play the game instead now.

[Ace Selin]

Solahma, on 27 October 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

FYI, true quirked/moduled stats of Widow's two builds for comparison



You can make these comparisons yourself using my spreadsheet available here:
https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing


Or you can request a stat comparison, I'll post if if I notice the request.

Ill admit there are many better players than I and spend more time understanding the intricacies of the game, but to me that supports what i said earlier.
The EBJ does run cooler and does have better range than the 5SS, unless you mean to compare the two standing 100m from each other, which is a situation the EBJ doesnt want to be in.

[Solahma]

Ace Selin, on 27 October 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Ill admit there are many better players than I and spend more time understanding the intricacies of the game, but to me that supports what i said earlier.
The EBJ does run cooler and does have better range than the 5SS, unless you mean to compare the two standing 100m from each other, which is a situation the EBJ doesnt want to be in.

They are really completely different builds and won't compare on every level. They both have clear advantages. TDR can output more damage within 400m than the EBJ. That's a pretty sizable distance. EBJ has the range advantage, sure, no one can argue that. It also has the alpha power. Both of those make it great at above 400m. They both shine in a completely different area. TDR is king below 400m, EBJ is king past 400m. That's what it comes down to. Even with similar sustained DPS, the TDR will win withing 400m because: Better hitboxes to spread damage, more armor/structure (quirks), and substantially higher Max DPS. It can output nearly as much damage as the EBJ in half the time.

In terms of build rating, factoring Alpha, Max DPS, Sustained DPS, and Heat efficiency, the TDR-5SS scores a 7.1 where the EBJ scores an 8.9. The numbers won't mean much to anyone because it's my personal formula, but based on this, the EBJ is the better choice because the range and alpha firepower gives it an edge in a greater number of situations. Most Gauss+Laser builds score like this and it's the primary reason it's so popular (not because of my score, but because of what my score shows and agrees with)

[DarthHias]

JediPanther, on 26 October 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Any light mech with six or more small pulse lasers with the cd 5 and range 5 mods. My brother has been using the wolfhound r variant as an anti light five spls. On a rare super match I did 804 damage in the panther and posted the pics to my imigr account.

Locust 1E confirmed OP

[Solahma]

Duke Nedo, on 27 October 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Last attempt.

Trust me, I get what you're saying and agree with you how it works. We diverge where we value that data. In your example, firing 100% gauss and 50% ERML, you would be generating a alpha at least 14 points lower. It's understood that you can manipulate what you fire to increase the sustainability of your build, but as said before, you are making a sacrifice. In this case you are lowering your alpha to achieve a higher sustained damage. You might consider that more important than my sustained value, that's fine, throw it into your own version. I might add something similar in a future update. Never hurts to show more data It would be more of an "optimal sustained DPS" for the build. I like the idea of perhaps adding a user-controlled percentage like in your examples. Where the user can say "Fire the gauss 100% of the time and ERML 50% of the time" and it would directly impact this new DPS value.

Our idea of actual sustained DPS differs. Mine simply takes the Max DPS (alpha/cooldown+duration) and multiplies it by a factor of weapon HPS and the mechs dissipation. It accurately shows that your damage output is if you fire all weapons with enough time between shots to be heat-neutral. This assumes taking full advantage of your alpha firepower, this is also why I prefer it. It's also the the preferred method on Smurfy.

Best of luck and thanks for the conversation. It's definitely something i'll consider adding for future versions.

[Lugh]

Ace Selin, on 27 October 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Ill admit there are many better players than I and spend more time understanding the intricacies of the game, but to me that supports what i said earlier.
The EBJ does run cooler and does have better range than the 5SS, unless you mean to compare the two standing 100m from each other, which is a situation the EBJ doesnt want to be in.

However, The EBJ is dead the minute the TDR 5SS gets in the sweet spot range of 440m or so, why? Because it's no longer suffering significant damage reduction for range and the short burn times of the TDRs MPLs mean that ALL its damage in that '10 seconds to shutdown time' is on the CT of the EBJ, and the same cannot be said for the EBJ.

[CygnusX7]

Double D with triple UAC5's and a pair of ML's is a mean mech.

[Solahma]

CygnusX7, on 27 October 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Double D with triple UAC5's and a pair of ML's is a mean mech.

Hell, with the UAC jam chance reduction it's not even worth taking backup MLs.

From science testing, an unquirked UAC5 has a ~28% DPS increase over AC5s including all the jamming. With a reduced jam chance, cooldown quirks, and module... It is really a beast.

Too bad the Jager is very easy to target side torsos due to its size, geometry, and speed.

[Duke Nedo]

Solahma, on 27 October 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

Trust me, I get what you're saying and agree with you how it works. We diverge where we value that data. In your example, firing 100% gauss and 50% ERML, you would be generating a alpha at least 14 points lower. It's understood that you can manipulate what you fire to increase the sustainability of your build, but as said before, you are making a sacrifice. In this case you are lowering your alpha to achieve a higher sustained damage. You might consider that more important than my sustained value, that's fine, throw it into your own version. I might add something similar in a future update. Never hurts to show more data It would be more of an "optimal sustained DPS" for the build. I like the idea of perhaps adding a user-controlled percentage like in your examples. Where the user can say "Fire the gauss 100% of the time and ERML 50% of the time" and it would directly impact this new DPS value.

Our idea of actual sustained DPS differs. Mine simply takes the Max DPS (alpha/cooldown+duration) and multiplies it by a factor of weapon HPS and the mechs dissipation. It accurately shows that your damage output is if you fire all weapons with enough time between shots to be heat-neutral. This assumes taking full advantage of your alpha firepower, this is also why I prefer it. It's also the the preferred method on Smurfy.

Best of luck and thanks for the conversation. It's definitely something i'll consider adding for future versions.

Cool beans. The only thing I don't agree with is that you're sacrificing anything. The way I see it the Sustained DPS descriptor of a mech ignores the heat buffer, it doesn't take it into account anyway for either of our values in this example. To me such a value should describe the maximum dps you can put out at heat steady state, then it relates to something.

Before you reach steady state, you have that heat buffer to use up, and the Burst DPS describes how much you can put out during this time. Edit: as well as total damage until overheat and time until overheat. These are cool values to have, nice! Read past them at first.

Anyways, cool spreadsheet, shouldn't spend too much time picking on details. Cheers!

Edited by Duke Nedo, 28 October 2015 - 12:43 AM.