117 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

So, Russ talked some about giant alphas not being ideal, to put it briefly.

Here is what and how to put up a public test server test to try a significant change to heatscale(Russ/Paul plz read)

Two parts to this, and both are important and hinge on the other.

Item one: The actual cap, and dissipation.

The cap needs to be cut, and dissipation increased to allow sustained weapons fire. 50% is a rough start for the cap, however I did read one comment saying a lot of alphas don;t hit 50% now. If the item 2 doesnt take care of that, then the baseline cap might need to go down further. Only testing could tell!

So, as a start, 50% cap, double dissipation. Possibly lower cap and even more dissipation, based on......


Item two: heatsink changes.

Single heatsinks: obviously, standard dissipation. Single heat sinks allow the cap to be increased.

Double heatsinks: Double heatsinks changed to tru-dub. Additionally, DHS will no longer raise the heat cap.
Now we have a choice, a true choice: raise your heat cap with SHS, but get less dissipation benefit, OR get no cap increase but get much more dissipation benefit from DHS.


Changing how heat sinks affect the cap is crucial, to keep the scale under control for balance. if players can simply mount DHS, they will adjust the alphas so that they can stay under the cap, and will gain sustainability for those alphas through dissipation. by eliminating DHS cap increases, we put a ceiling on the alphas that players can not bypass without losing the dissipation bonus from DHS.

Final numbers would need a shake out on PTS. Which of course is the point of PTS. Heck, even if it all fails utterly, at least we will know.

[Xetelian]

We'd end up with Ballistic-warrior and I think the lighter mechs would be the most effected.

[Zordicron]

Xetelian, on 27 October 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

We'd end up with Ballistic-warrior and I think the lighter mechs would be the most effected.

Ballistics though, are balanced in firepower by their own tonnage. Pretty hard to make a 40 point alpha with 4 tons of clan ballistics.

As for lights, indeed, they would have to reduce laser alphas. No way around it for them really. But if it is done correctly, no loadout should become invalid, and firepower should remain similar. It would just mean chainfire vs alphas.
Similarily, TTK wouldn't really grow exponantially. It would just mean mechs wouldn't be instagibbed, and actually have a chance to twist about and spread dmg to other points as the laser burn times are spread out.

there has been a lot of discussion about this topic, and lots of imagined results have been bandied about. We need it on PTS, to see what happens, and how it shakes out, for real. Theory is just theory until we can actually see what happens.

[Gas Guzzler]

ER PPC Gauss again. Fine with me. The PPFLD crybabies might have an issue though.

[FupDup]

Xetelian, on 27 October 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

We'd end up with Ballistic-warrior and I think the lighter mechs would be the most effected.

Well, the Adder can actually do Gauss + 3 tons of ammo + 3 ERSL, making it the only light able to make an actually presentable (but still not optimal) Gauss build.

Rise of the Adder meta?

[JaxRiot]

Did he happen to say if this change was going to be part of the rebalance?

I know I could go look for myself but Im terribly lazy

[JigglyMoobs]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

ER PPC Gauss again. Fine with me. The PPFLD crybabies might have an issue though.

Can't wait to get back to this. Still love playing this on solo queue right now.

Dual Gauss will also be nice again once LAZORS OMG meta is gone.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 27 October 2015 - 08:51 PM.

[Mystere]

I've been practicing with gauss rifles and PPCs. Now it looks like that's going to pay off.

[Gas Guzzler]

JigglyMoobs, on 27 October 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Can't wait to get back to this. Still love playing this on solo queue right now.

Dual Gauss will also be nice again once LAZORS OMG meta is gone.

I like it too, but it restricts you to only a couple of mechs.

People say they want laser to go away, but then what are the Grasshopper and Black Knight supposed to do? Or any other energy heavy mechs for that matter.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 October 2015 - 08:56 PM.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I like it too, but it restricts you to only a couple of mechs.

People say they want laser to go away, but then what are the Grasshopper and Black Knight supposed to do? Or any other energy heavy mechs for that matter.

Lots and lots of chain-firing?

[MoonUnitBeta]

Implement Energy/Power Supply to regulate Energy based weapons. Energy weapons use this gauge as primary resource, and AC's/ missiles use heat as primary resource.

I know, i used the term "resource", that must mean I want MWO to be an ARPG. Please.

The heat scale needs tuning, but I'm not a believer at all that heat scale is ever going to be perfect. It's a basic scale/meter that has a finite amount of ways to function, and each of those ways comes with their pros and cons. I don't think there'll ever be a balance where heat scale will work well with everything, or will ever be able to be made to work well with everything (ghost heat was a good attempt and has its place).

Really, we should have a secondary scale that helps manage a range of other weapons. Which can be balanced and tuned appropriately. It wouldn't make it a "Well should I go all energy, or all AC?" It would be a balance of "I can afford AC, they don't take energy, but using these will overload my heat thresholds, now I should look into energy weapons.", and vise versa, "my powersource won't support these 10 medium lasers, maybe it would be best if I went with 1 large, 2 med, and 3 small lasers.. or I could look into using the Balistic/Missile hardpoints if my mech has them."

I think it's obvious at this point that I care very little about what's table top rules, and I'm more concerned about the well being of the game. I feel it makes good sense that a mech can only support a certain amount of lasers, or energy demanding weapons. Mech have infinite power at the moment. That is why we have no trouble dishing out huge laser alphas.
When the energy runs out, guess what, your 8 med pulse laser alpha is going to cut out short, dealing only the damage of what 5 or 6 would have done. But now you have a crazy long cooldown on everything as you wait for your system to recharge the lasers, or replenish surplus power.

[1Grimbane]

leave my purposefully ridiculously high laser vomit alpha's alone...... whining little @%^&%$'s

[Funkin Disher]

Well, they did the IS overrange 2x, Clan overrange 1.5x in the test server (sorta), so It's worth hoping that they'll do the SHS add to cap, DHS 2x dissipation but not add to heat cap idea too.

[Gas Guzzler]

1Grimbane, on 27 October 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

leave my purposefully ridiculously high laser vomit alpha's alone...... whining little @%^&%$'s

Pot, meet Kettle.

Seriously, now its "zOMG ridiculously high laser vomit alpha" next it will be "zOMG PPFLD I can't handle it nerf it!!". Its a known cycle.

[GreyNovember]

Twingauss is already prolific. No changes to that.

Ballistics I don't see an issue; especially syncing with PPCs and whatnot. People already insist PPC Hitreg is so terrible that it's not worth using, so non issue. They're clearly not going to do that then.

So at best Alphas are now 30 at range. 40 if it's AC20s.


Just thought I'd point out that, with this, Huginns and Oxides are indirectly buffed. their DPS now increases drastically, if they cool better.

SRMs aren't exactly high heat weapons. So.

[Hit the Deck]

FupDup, on 27 October 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

Well, the Adder can actually do Gauss + 3 tons of ammo + 3 ERSL, making it the only light able to make an actually presentable (but still not optimal) Gauss build.

Rise of the Adder meta?

Gauss+2ERML has better synergy at range.

The 'Mech is indeed the best Gauss Light due to Clan Tech and it obsoletes the Hollander before it even arrives. Too bad because I like the Hollander....

[Brollocks]

I have no other comment other than I'm really happy they are looking into fixing the silly alpha aspect of this game.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I've become convinced that the best place to start iteration is a 40 hard cap, SHS at -0.20 h/s, and DHS at -0.30 h/s. See how that work and tweak the numbers. Maybe drop the cap to 35 or 38, or bump dissipation up on one or both HS types - these should be simple number changes that can happen weekly even.

That said, a much lower fixed heat cap, SHS adding to the heat cap, and DHS getting somewhat boosted dissipation is an interesting way to handle balance. I'd be happy to see this in practice.

[FupDup]

Hit the Deck, on 27 October 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

Gauss+2ERML has better synergy at range.

The 'Mech is indeed the best Gauss Light due to Clan Tech and it obsoletes the Hollander before it even arrives. Too bad because I like the Hollander....

But you have to get that 0.5 tons from somewhere...2.5 tons of ammo? The build I listed before assumed 3 tons of ammo.

[Kjudoon]

Alphastrikes benefit comes almost completely from convergence. Nobody fears a lrm alpha strike because they know much of the damage is spread across the entire mech and the remainder misses completely. A same value laserbarf hitscan generally is isolated to one to 3 components unless something influences the shot like rolling damage or the shooter stinks. The big baddie is a pinpoint alpha where you cant roll damage and it is Ll delivered to the same component.

The solution isnt heat unless you want more mechanics that take us farther from the source material. Instead the solution that too many l33ts do not want is spreading all direct fire damage like an lbx srm or yes... Lrm. The method HOW it spreads can be debated but the necessitynkf this raw function is not honestly debatable.

Fix convergence and solve a large problem to player retention and gameplay itself. The problem is the resistance from a vested interest in a sml l33t minority looking to preserve their favorite game flaw from hich they personally benefit. Till that hurdle is overcome (which very well may include PGI staffers) this problem will continue and stunt the game's growth and life till corrected.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 October 2015 - 10:33 PM.