124 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

Remember, IS ER-Large Laser are 5 tons each, and do 9 damage each
So they weigh 25% more, and do 20% less damage, but when on a mech with a huge range quirk (25%), they can reach 15% farther.

If you cannot figure out a way to beat that, you belong in the garbage dump of commanders.

Edited by Adamski, 31 October 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[SkippyT72]

Adamski, on 31 October 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Remember, IS ER-Large Laser are 5 tons each, and do 9 damage each
So they weigh 25% more, and do 20% less damage, but when on a mech with a huge range quirk (25%), they can reach 15% farther.

If you cannot figure out a way to beat that, you belong in the garbage dump of commanders.

Yet when you add in the fact that the IS can fire 3 of them without the ghost heat penalty compaired to the Clans getting to fire 2 they actually can do more damage then the same clan mech with the range and heat bonus the IS enjoys.

[Adamski]

Yes. When the IS spends 15 tons on ER lasers it will out damage the 8 tons a Clanner does (27 vs 22, or 21% more damage for 87% more tonnage). Thats the difference in weight between a gauss rifle and an AC5.

[Fire for Effect]

SkippyT72, on 31 October 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

Yet when you add in the fact that the IS can fire 3 of them without the ghost heat penalty compaired to the Clans getting to fire 2 they actually can do more damage then the same clan mech with the range and heat bonus the IS enjoys.

http://cdn.meme.am/i...0x/53761783.jpg

[Zibmo]

Hydrocarbon, on 28 October 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm guessing you A.) never played clan, B.) enjoy spamming IS-ERLL, C.) lie to yourself daily that over-quirked IS mechs are still inferior. Do you realize the mechs mentioned have insane laser quirks, both range & duration? That gauss at that range can be easily avoided? Lets go over some stats:

************************************************************************************
BLR-1S & TDR-5SS:
ERLL optimal of 843m
beam duration <1.1 sec (>8.25 dmg/sec)
Heat efficiency = 1.25 dmg/heat
************************************************************************************
Clamzz:
ERLL optimal of 740m
beam duration 1.5 sec (7.33 dmg/sec)
Heat efficiency = 1.1 dmg/heat
************************************************************************************

Not to mention virtually zero clan "builds" equip 3+ ERLL's, while the BLR & TDR typically boat 3-4 ERLL's. That's 22 alpha vs 27-36 alpha. BIG DIFFERENCE. No 12-man Clan team I've ever played with has EVER had more than 2 mechs with 3+ ERLL, and the PUG's that bring them rarely pull more than 500 dmg.

So your complaint boils down to "IS has paper superiority on two mechs, only one of which is considered competitive and Clans -choose- not to boat the same way?"

And because no clan team boats them the way the only really good IS mechs -have to-, you are complaining? Really? Ok, so tell me what else the clan-mechs-that-never-carry-more-than-three can carry. Then tell me what else the boating IS mechs have on them.

I'll bet you were seriously irritated when your Clan friends and you were able to easily outrange IS in every battle. I can remember quite well "But...we don't brawl as well" when it was obvious that any IS brawlers that were able to get into range had been so badly chewed up by Clan range advantages that the argument was specious. You will also remember that, at that point, about the only truly viable attack strat by IS was the light rush.

[Jack N Dew]

Hmmmm. Before the map change. How many times do you think an IS team was decimated by clan range before the gates were even open?

[Hades Trooper]

Anubis Ka, on 29 October 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

So have you tried using artillery strikes on the ridge and sending Artic cheetahs in to cause mayhem?

So have you tried using artillery strikes on the ridge and sending Artic cheetahs in to cause mayhem?

Not the point, it should be out of bounds

R Razor, on 31 October 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Yummy yummy clan tears..............

posts like that are a vreach of TOS, you not adding anything other than to be a troll

[Koniks]

Just wait til the IS figures out the Locust-3V has a 50% range quirk.

[Tuis Ryche]

Zibmo, on 01 November 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

You will also remember that, at that point, about the only truly viable attack strat by IS was the light rush.

And now the clans have the Cheetah. Don't hear much complaining about IS light rushes anymore.

We just have to watch for a mass of hopping SPL cheetahs coring everything.

[Tuis Ryche]

Mizeur, on 02 November 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

Just wait til the IS figures out the Locust-3V has a 50% range quirk.

Yeah, I'm sure that would be just awesome for that single ERLL. The clans would wither before the swarm of Locusts.

[Inkarnus]

Tuis Ryche, on 03 November 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm sure that would be just awesome for that single ERLL. The clans would wither before the swarm of Locusts.

dont mock the locust or a swarm of elderly cicadas will haunt you  in your dreams

[Hotthedd]

If the battlefield favors your opponent, change the battlefield.

During the Battle of Tukkayid, I was in a PuG solo group attacking Boreal against a well respected premade 12 man unit. They were full meta, 1st wave all Stalkers and Thunderbolts all optimized for long range trading. Our first unfortunate soul to get into position to shoot the gate generator was disintegrated before he could drop off the ramp. (It was a beautifully gruesome sight).

So, I took command. I ordered the team to NOT open the gate, and take defensive positions behind the cover near the gates.
(Remember the queue times for I.S. teams was terrible, but Clans could get a match in less than 2 minutes)
We then taunted the other team, reminding them that after the 30 minutes they would waste on this battle, they could waste another 45 minutes to an hour waiting to get into another match. Our job was to delay their unit for as long as possible, keeping them out of the war so that the Clan premades would get twice as many victories in the same amount of time.

Grudgingly, the enemy unit realized we could hold them for the full duration of the match, and all they would have for their victory would be one kill, and 11 assists. They agreed to allow us to open one gate unmolested. This gave our team an advantage, we were able to force the battle to a good range for us, and funneled the enemy through one choke point.

Of course, this was a very good premade team, and ultimately they prevailed, but not until their 4th wave. It was a fun battle.

TL;DR
War isn't fair. Instead of complaining, use what you can to even the playing field.

[Starwulfe]

Is it a cheat? no
Is it annoying? absolutely
Is there a tactical workaround? yup
I also expect PGI will tweak the terrain like they did before, it just may take time.

I expect the problem is more a loose or unorganized group/pugs who refuse to follow simple commands and stick together, staying under cover as they move in and instead allow minor paint damage to drive them to hide.
Any organized group just puts up with it, moves in and mows em over. (but there's always plenty of moaning on TS during the move!)

Edited by Starwulfe, 03 November 2015 - 04:39 PM.

[Khereg]

Hades, it's fine to argue you think a map should be redesigned, but using terms like "cheating" and "abuse" are grossly inaccurate. By definition no one cheated, and "abuse" of a map is a purely subjective term.

Map redesign and abuse are both populist arguments: the more votes in favor, the better your case. Get enough votes and PGI will redesign the map.

So far I haven't seen anyone take your side on this, be they IS, clan, or whatever. In short, no one, or very few people agree with your point of view. You've lost this one. Let it go.

Edited by Khereg, 06 November 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[crustydog]

It's very simple really. If a group moves as a group and attacks as a group, then the damage taken tends to be only a few percentile of the armor per mech in that group.

A good defending team might be able to focus down a mech or two from the attacking team - but by then the gate is down and the attackers are in - and that part of the battle is over and done with. Up close, the ERLL is a weapon with huge disadvantages - lower damage, higher heat, longer duration, longer cooldown. Those sniper builds are in a lot of trouble when you get close to them, and that more than offsets the loss of a mech or two at the gates.

The guys who get destroyed by the long range snipers are the ones who refuse to move as a unit. They try to engage in a long range trade fight with one mech vrs four or five - and they almost always lose that fight.

CW is very much about moving as a group - quickly and efficiently. This is every bit as important, if not more important, than the ability to shoot, or the meta nature of the mechs you are bringing. You move your group to create 12 vrs 6 combat situations, and with mediocre warriors driving mediocre mechs, you can still very much dominate the battles.

Group coordination can overcome pretty much any tactical or technological advantage in the game. The real problems come when you have warriors who cannot function as part of a team.

We had a warrior yesterday who had 8 kills,12 assists, and 2000+ damage - but he stayed outside the gates the entire match... while his team went inside, under strength and under armored due to his lack of being present and accounted for. At the end he was the last warrior alive with his final two mechs being drop camped insta-killed.

His lone wolf behavior encourage similar behavior in two other warriors, and with one disco mech - our side entered the gates with only 8 mechs, and successfully flanked 4 enemy mechs - but as the rest of their team quickly arrived that became 8 vrs 12, and we were outgunned by 50%.

He was asking why his team played so badly.

[TKSax]

Ran into this tactic on Emeral Tiga. A 12 man (same unit) vs a bunch of pugs camped on top of the ridge on a counter attach mission... not cheating but a pretty douchbag move.


Edit - Just finished a game that a 12 man tried this agiast some puts with a 2 man and a 3 man, on Boreal Vault and they lost... haha

Edited by TKSax, 04 November 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[multisoul]

i consider cheating the possibility to get on top of the mountain next to the gates as a short range heavy without JJ has no chance to retaliate. even though it alone cannot win the game and mechs there can be shot with long range weapons
other than that this whining is ridiculous. sniping from this exact spot has caused many game losses to teams that know how to play and just ignore the sniper while moving under cover to leave him as last for farming.
because essentially if you stay all game on that spot at drop point the enemy can position itself so that the game turns int 12 vs (12-the supid snipers in G7)

Edited by multisoul, 04 November 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[Hades Trooper]

Hotthedd, on 03 November 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

If the battlefield favors your opponent, change the battlefield.

During the Battle of Tukkayid, I was in a PuG solo group attacking Boreal against a well respected premade 12 man unit. They were full meta, 1st wave all Stalkers and Thunderbolts all optimized for long range trading. Our first unfortunate soul to get into position to shoot the gate generator was disintegrated before he could drop off the ramp. (It was a beautifully gruesome sight).

So, I took command. I ordered the team to NOT open the gate, and take defensive positions behind the cover near the gates.
(Remember the queue times for I.S. teams was terrible, but Clans could get a match in less than 2 minutes)
We then taunted the other team, reminding them that after the 30 minutes they would waste on this battle, they could waste another 45 minutes to an hour waiting to get into another match. Our job was to delay their unit for as long as possible, keeping them out of the war so that the Clan premades would get twice as many victories in the same amount of time.

Grudgingly, the enemy unit realized we could hold them for the full duration of the match, and all they would have for their victory would be one kill, and 11 assists. They agreed to allow us to open one gate unmolested. This gave our team an advantage, we were able to force the battle to a good range for us, and funneled the enemy through one choke point.

Of course, this was a very good premade team, and ultimately they prevailed, but not until their 4th wave. It was a fun battle.

TL;DR
War isn't fair. Instead of complaining, use what you can to even the playing field.

Yes i know of this tactic and we used it twice in the 72 hours i playing in that battle. But thats not the point, this isn't war it's a game and for the sake, of as i put the tag, balance the area is unfair, i personally had a game yesterday where we didn't even bother with it we move into mid range fighting positions as we didn't feel the need to abuse the map that PGI has poorly thought out

[Hades Trooper]

Khereg, on 04 November 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Hades, it's fine to argue you think a map should be redesigned, but using terms like "cheating" and "abuse" are grossly inaccurate. By definition no one cheated, and "abuse" of a map is a purely subjective term.

Map redesign and abuse are both sophist arguments: the more votes in favor, the better your case. Get enough votes and PGI will redesign the map.

So far I haven't seen anyone take your side on this, be they IS, clan, or whatever. In short, no one, or very few people agree with your point of view. You've lost this one. Let it go.

Exactly as you say, these terms are a purely subjective terms, if you don't like my terms then fine, so be it, but the matter at hand in the spot on the map should be out of bounds, like like they made the spots between the gates out of bounds.

So your wrong, people are agreeing with the map issue, just my choice of words may not be to your liking but they got the desired effect with over 2,000 views

[Hades Trooper]

TKSax, on 04 November 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Ran into this tactic on Emeral Tiga. A 12 man (same unit) vs a bunch of pugs camped on top of the ridge on a counter attach mission... not cheating but a pretty douchbag move.


Edit - Just finished a game that a 12 man tried this agiast some puts with a 2 man and a 3 man, on Boreal Vault and they lost... haha

Exactly, this unit in question has very little tactical ability, without map abuse i don't think they can win a game.

The point is PGI needs to fix the map so the spawn camping spot is out of bounds and they are forced to engage as intended and that wall is to protect them from be spawn camped, not being able to camp there spot next to the spawn and snipe.

BTW idk if there clan or IS, using that spot on boreal vault to camp near the spawn so u can snipe is poor form by any unit that does it.

So yes both sides can do it, but those of quality don't need to abuse the map for an advantage, there piloting skills and team work is enough, but i wouldn't expect the unit i played vs to have that kinda honour or quality of pilots. Where is the pug group i lead the other day, i choose to ignore it and use skills and once again several of the Davion unit in question where in the game and got there butt handed to them.