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Weak, Illogical People Are Destroying Their Own Game. Not The Meta.


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#141 Mystere

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:41 PM

View Postpwnface, on 30 October 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

While I agree the OP is being abrasive and egotistical, I don't think his core point is wrong.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish by pointing out someone needs the best mech to be the best pilot. I mean unless you are beating top comp teams/players with an intentionally "inferior" loadout it doesn't really give you room to speak. Maybe people aren't happy with being in the top 10% with a sh*tty build. Maybe people would rather strive for the top 1% in an optimized build.

I really don't understand the mindset of "bring a sh*ttier mech to prove you are a real man". You are literally trying to prove that other people aren't better than you in a fight since you tied your own arm behind your back and the other guy didn't.


It's actually an odd if not funny logic to use, especially because I don't see Olympic medalists using substandard equipment, or top Tour de France riders using 20 Euro helmets or 100 Euro bikes.

#142 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:44 PM

View PostMystere, on 30 October 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:


It's actually an odd if not funny logic to use, especially because I don't see Olympic medalists using substandard equipment, or top Tour de France riders using 20 Euro helmets or 100 Euro bikes.

Didn't Lance boost or juice, whatever it's called?

#143 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:45 PM

View PostPholkLorr, on 29 October 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Weak, illogical players destroy their own game. Not the meta.

I would use harsher, simpler and more accurate terms to describe this group of players but i'm not sure if those are against the terms. Ever since i started playing this game, i have seen the same weak, self entitled players whining about how other people are better than them. I thought i'll post a riposte to their whining.

Every one of us have the same options to play whatever you think is the best. Why some people deliberately choose to play a bad build or playstyle and then whine that it is bad is beyond me.

It's like in World of warcraft, knowing that a build is bad and deliberately choosing that build. Or knowing that a 200 dps weapon is inferior to a 400 dps weapon and picking the 200 dps weapon because it's shinier. Or in real life, you need to destroy a wall and were given the option of choosing a sledgehammer or a penknife and choosing the penknife, then whining that the penknife isn't getting the job done as well as your friend who took the sledgehammer.

As to the comment from low skilled players saying that "meta tryhards" are not having fun, i have this to say:

Fun is subjective. Playing sub optimal builds is fun to you. Not so to me. I like playing optimal builds. I like steamrolling my enemies. And so far, i'm having a lot of fun doing just that.

Besides, if you're having so much fun using crappy builds, why are you crying and whining on the forums about how "meta tryhards" are steamrolling you? Or are you afraid that if you actually played the "meta" AND still played crappily, you wouldn't have an excuse to protect your already bruised ego? Your ego would be utterly destroyed beyond recognition.

When you say that you hate meta and that the current meta is destroying the game, what you're essentially saying is not so much that you hate meta. It's more of: I don't like the CURRENT meta and i want MY BUILD (which happens to be bad currently) to be the meta.

Guess what? If YOUR BUILD and playstyle became the new meta, I would take that build and steamroll you with it anyway.

The meta changes constantly. When it was poptarting, i used poptart builds and weapons and steamrolled with it. Now it's even easier, laser vomit. So i use laser vomit and steamroll with it. The meta changes and you must change along with it or be food for the steamrollers. This is the way of life.

Besides, even if you used the meta, you'll probably still be food. Given the same build/mech, some players are just flat out better than others. Given the same weapons, some soldiers are marksmen and some are cannon fodder. Given equal opportunities and equal tools, some people get farther ahead in life than others.

These are the hard truths of life.


Yah well way to be a **** about it : /

You're not wrong, just a little bit cruel.

#144 Mystere

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:54 PM

View Postcdlord, on 30 October 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Didn't Lance boost or juice, whatever it's called?


Well, cheats are a totally different topic. Or are you somehow associating "using the meta" with "cheating"? :unsure:

#145 Summon3r

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:00 PM

View PostcSand, on 29 October 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

The real comedic gold on MWO is how all these guys suddenly find out they're Tier one now it's like

DON'T COME IN HERE AND GIVE LESS THAN 110%, MAN UP, LEARN BOUT LIFE YO

PARTICIPATION TROPHY NOTHIN WHAT THIS AIN'T NO GAME

THIS IS MWO
THIS MY HOUSE B**CH

BTW CHECK OUT MY TWITCH CHANNEL AND YOUTUBE FEED


QFT

#146 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:03 PM

View PostMystere, on 30 October 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:


Well, cheats are a totally different topic. Or are you somehow associating "using the meta" with "cheating"? :unsure:

I call it exploitation of a flawed system. There have been many examples of people on these forums admitting that they do what they do because it's broke and to point it out to PGI. We also know it's flawed because of PGI's continued attempts (however successful or not) to "fix" it. There's also the reasoning behind the stock builds in the TROs in the first place and modification was strictly up to the local GMs.

I really wish there was a way people could have their meta builds and not have it too impactful on those of us who don't. Since many think TTK it too low (fast kills) so I support a nerfing of weapon systems across the board. If TTK was just right (maybe they should double armor again) then I'd say bring the other systems up to laser level performance. There are many different ways to do this. Those of us against the meta have offered up many solutions like these and many more. Those that support it don't, they just defend it to their last breath. And you can see how this thread, and all the others, have devolved.

Edited by cdlord, 30 October 2015 - 02:07 PM.


#147 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:06 PM

View Postcdlord, on 30 October 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

...
I really wish there was a way people could have their meta builds and not have it to impactful on those of us who don't.
...

Well, if either the MM was tighter and/or we had a larger population (to also help that MM), then the types of players in each camp would be more or less "isolated" from each other so their only conflicts would happen on the forums. But that might not happen...

Evening out the equipment/mech powerlevel gaps would help, but no matter how equal the equipment is there will always be more efficient ways to build robbits.

#148 1Grimbane

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:08 PM

View Postcdlord, on 30 October 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:



I really wish there was a way people could have their meta builds and not have it to impactful on those of us who don't.




I WON'T STAND FOR COMMUNISM SIR

#149 pwnface

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:08 PM

View Postcdlord, on 30 October 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

I call it exploitation of a flawed system. There have been many examples of people on these forums admitting that they do what they do because it's broke and to point it out to PGI. We also know it's flawed because of PGI's continued attempts (however successful or not) to "fix" it. There's also the reasoning behind the stock builds in the TROs in the first place and modification was strictly up to the local GMs.

I really wish there was a way people could have their meta builds and not have it to impactful on those of us who don't. Since many think TTK it too low (fast kills) so I support a nerfing of weapon systems across the board. If TTK was just right (maybe they should double armor again) then I'd say bring the other systems up to laser level performance. There are many different ways to do this. Those of us against the meta have offered up many solutions like these and many more. Those that support it don't, they just defend it to their last breath. And you can see how this thread, and all the others, have devolved.


Gameplay balance in a moving target, just because people don't want to keep up with what is currently "good" it doesn't mean people are exploiting anything.

#150 MischiefSC

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:13 PM

View Postpwnface, on 30 October 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:


While I agree the OP is being abrasive and egotistical, I don't think his core point is wrong.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish by pointing out someone needs the best mech to be the best pilot. I mean unless you are beating top comp teams/players with an intentionally "inferior" loadout it doesn't really give you room to speak. Maybe people aren't happy with being in the top 10% with a sh*tty build. Maybe people would rather strive for the top 1% in an optimized build.

I really don't understand the mindset of "bring a sh*ttier mech to prove you are a real man". You are literally trying to prove that other people aren't better than you in a fight since you tied your own arm behind your back and the other guy didn't.


Really is kind of the gist of it.

I do analytics for a really big company. Many thousands of employees. While I massage magic numbers for all sorts of stuff a big chunk of my time is agent/employee metrics and telemetry. Bonus structures, performance metrics, essentially breaking down what is going well, what isn't, how to change payouts to motivate behaviors the business is focusing on, where areas of opportunity are, that sort of stuff.

A really big chunk of that is identifying who is successful and who isn't and why. The why bit is what so many people miss. Computer games, driving a car, taking tech support phone calls, selling widgets, participating in an Iron Man event, being an athlete, it doesn't matter. It's all the same stuff in that context. There are successful and unsuccessful behaviors, there are good tools and bad tools, there are good processes and bad processes.

People hate and fear change and people are generally pretty risk-averse. So they fear success - success is a byproduct of risk most the time. You put in effort, you put yourself forward and you risk failing. So people tend to gravitate to path of least resistance and if they're in a competitive environment most people will take the 'I don't complete/people who are competitive suck' approach. They develop their own behaviors, their own processes and select their own tools based on faulty logic or minimal experience and they stick to them even when better options are provided because it feels safe and familiar.

People play bad builds because if they played good builds and still sucked they would have to admit they are making poor choices. Statistically I can say that people who say 'I play for fun, I don't care if I win' are lying. They are lying to protect their ego. Winning is more fun than losing. We are wired that way, it's how we function as social creatures. Anyone who absolutely doesn't care in any way shape or form if they win or lose is, quite literally, a sociopath and divorced from normal human motivations.

When someone says 'I only play what's fun' is saying is 'I fear change, if I do something different and still fail then I have nobody to blame but myself and that's uncomfortable'. We all do it. We do it all the time. It's normal and healthy, it's a survival tactic. Moving beyond it though in safe environments is a big part of what makes some people more successful than others.

Learning to be good at something is about learning behaviors, the right tools and the right process to be successful. You take any gold medal athlete and put him in crappy shoes, no trainer giving him advice and a bad situation (like a crappy race environment and bad shoes) and he'll still excel. He'll excel because he has learned by practicing with the best tools using the best habits in the company of excellent and challenging experts in the field (teammates, opponents and coaches) how to do this well. If you took him before he was a gold medal athlete and gave him bad shoes, no help, no support, didn't teach him the right habits and processes he would never have become a gold medalist.

That's the crux of all this drama. If people learned what worked and why, learned how to use it (and thus how to work against it), played with and against the best people they could, put their egos aside to learn how to get better, then they could run their favorite Orion build and still do alright. They'd know why the Timber Wolf was better and why lasers are better and that knowledge would make them better across the whole spectrum of the game.

Game balance is ****** up. Needs fixed. Hating 'the meta' and refusing to adapt to changes, to incorporate what is successful in any given situation, that's just people being scared and refusing to better themselves. The two are not directly related. Fixing game balance won't make bad people better. It won't make people who refuse to do what wins win more often.

That's the uncomfortable truth that the OP put forward so aggressively. It is true though.

#151 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:20 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 October 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Well, if either the MM was tighter and/or we had a larger population (to also help that MM), then the types of players in each camp would be more or less "isolated" from each other so their only conflicts would happen on the forums. But that might not happen...

Evening out the equipment/mech powerlevel gaps would help, but no matter how equal the equipment is there will always be more efficient ways to build robbits.

It'll never be a perfect system, but we can strive for a more fair and less broke system. :)

View Post1Grimbane, on 30 October 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:




I WON'T STAND FOR COMMUNISM SIR

PUT YOUR MIKE DOWN HANNITTY! :)

Dude, seriously, this is a game. Being fair to people keeps it alive. All my friends accuse my of being a Tea Partier and they are mostly right, you won't find a more ardent foe of Socialism/Communism than right here (vocally, I have nowhere near the resources to do anything else but argue with friends and family about it and post on facebook). :)

Edited by cdlord, 30 October 2015 - 02:20 PM.


#152 Random Carnage

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:20 PM

Laser damage, range, heat, cooldown etc. is not really the issue. The issue is how many lasers can be equipped on a given chassis. Control the hard points and the problems largely go away.

If a chassis could only rock a maximum of 4 medium lasers, the laser range and damage is appropriate to the weapon system. Running 12 of them however breaks the game.

Consider the critical slots required for an AC20 vs the range, damage and cooldown it has against filling the same number of slots with medium pulse lasers. Yep. Buffing the AC does nothing to fix the laser vomit problem and nurfing the laser unduly penalises builds that only run a few lasers. What's needed is a way to control how many lasers can be equipped on a given chassis.

An energy use system sounds good but is unlikely to happen, and in reality when you're using a fission reactor to power your mech, available power isn't really an issue. A mech manufacturer isn't going to build more energy hard points into a chassis than it can safely handle, so relays overloading etc. just doesn't really hold up.

Reduce the number of energy hard points available, or increase the slots each weapon take. Make LL 3 slots each, ML 2 slots and SL 1 slot. In the short term, this would go some way toward a fix without getting into nerfing lasers. It reins in the laser meta, not the weapon, and would still allow laser boats to be viaible on larger chassis.

#153 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:24 PM

View PostRandom Carnage, on 30 October 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Laser damage, range, heat, cooldown etc. is not really the issue. The issue is how many lasers can be equipped on a given chassis. Control the hard points and the problems largely go away.

If a chassis could only rock a maximum of 4 medium lasers, the laser range and damage is appropriate to the weapon system. Running 12 of them however breaks the game.

Consider the critical slots required for an AC20 vs the range, damage and cooldown it has against filling the same number of slots with medium pulse lasers. Yep. Buffing the AC does nothing to fix the laser vomit problem and nurfing the laser unduly penalises builds that only run a few lasers. What's needed is a way to control how many lasers can be equipped on a given chassis.

An energy use system sounds good but is unlikely to happen, and in reality when you're using a fission reactor to power your mech, available power isn't really an issue. A mech manufacturer isn't going to build more energy hard points into a chassis than it can safely handle, so relays overloading etc. just doesn't really hold up.

Reduce the number of energy hard points available, or increase the slots each weapon take. Make LL 3 slots each, ML 2 slots and SL 1 slot. In the short term, this would go some way toward a fix without getting into nerfing lasers. It reins in the laser meta, not the weapon, and would still allow laser boats to be viaible on larger chassis.

All of the Clan mechs, the primary offenders of "laser vomit," have their TT stock hardpoints. PGI cannot and will not give a mech fewer hardpoints than it comes stock with. You could smack down the number of IS energy hardpoints (many mechs have inflated HP's on that faction), sure, but that would just make the power gap between IS and Clans even larger.

PGI will never increase the critical slots needed for equipment, so that's also not a viable solution (it also would end up making many "innocent" builds no longer able to be constructed at all).


The real answer is probably a mixture of modest (as in, not using Paul's sledgehammer from the hands of God himself) nerfs to a handful of Clan lasers (no nerfs to Inner Sphere lasers needed), and making some non-laser weapons like SRMs actually function effectively.

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2015 - 02:26 PM.


#154 Random Carnage

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:28 PM

The answer needs to ultimately lower the laser boat alpha potential. That's what it comes down to.

Without nerfing the individual lasers.

#155 Lightfoot

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:29 PM

View Post1Grimbane, on 30 October 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

when modern militaries start using the latest and most powerful equipment in real life... are they using what works best or are they "meta" it makes sense to use what works best for you, and as far as "easy mode" i'd rather get my kills the fastest way i can..... TOTALLY PROUD USER OF LASER VOMIT!!!

The only reason laser-vomit works is that everything else was nerfed away and that's not Battle Tech. Battle Tech is when all the weapons work as good as lasers but at their designated range and tactic. Then you would pause and think, maybe I should take something besides lasers just in case? Anyway, it seems like PGI is trying to deliver a dummied-down version of MechWarrior so players don't have to make those decisions correctly to enjoy MWO. So lasers always work and they don't need to be aimed, just place the cursor and they go there instantly.

Then there is the issue of Clan tech having nothing that works at all except the lasers and everyone whines how OP it is.

Why not create a Battle Tech balance and let the tears fall?

#156 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:29 PM

View PostRandom Carnage, on 30 October 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

The answer needs to ultimately lower the laser boat alpha potential. That's what it comes down to.

I think that a few of the Clan lasers could use nudged down damage, sure (e.g. Clan LPL at 13 damage and Clan ERML at 7 damage are pretty crazy).

...But the IS lasers are fine (some on the IS side could even be argued as being liable for small improvements).

#157 pwnface

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:30 PM

View PostRandom Carnage, on 30 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

The answer needs to ultimately lower the laser boat alpha potential. That's what it comes down to.

Without nerfing the individual lasers.


We'd just get the PPFLD meta back with PPC/Gauss or PPC/AC5 dominating again. I'd give it a month at most before people start complaining again.

#158 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:30 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 30 October 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

People play bad builds because if they played good builds and still sucked they would have to admit they are making poor choices. Statistically I can say that people who say 'I play for fun, I don't care if I win' are lying. They are lying to protect their ego. Winning is more fun than losing. We are wired that way, it's how we function as social creatures. Anyone who absolutely doesn't care in any way shape or form if they win or lose is, quite literally, a sociopath and divorced from normal human motivations.


This was full of so much crap I wasn't sure where to start 'calling you out' on it. So we will start here:
When Clans were introduced I was running Stormcrows, and wreaking face. It didn't take long to realize that wasn't fun. Since then I have hung up my Clan mechs and meta mechs in favor of playing the game the way I want to play it. at the same time I feel it is incumbent upon me to lobby PGI for better gameplay and better matchmaking. That that is my challenge and fight.

As for your characterization of a sociopath, not carrying if they win, you have completely backwards. That is all they care about, elevating themselves at the expense of others. It is both hilarious and ironic that you even mentioned it.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 30 October 2015 - 02:32 PM.


#159 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:32 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 30 October 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

The only reason laser-vomit works is that everything else was nerfed away and that's not Battle Tech. Battle Tech is when all the weapons work as good as lasers but at their designated range and tactic. Then you would pause and think, maybe I should take something besides lasers just in case? Anyway, it seems like PGI is trying to deliver a dummied-down version of MechWarrior so players don't have to make those decisions correctly to enjoy MWO. So lasers always work and they don't need to be aimed, just place the cursor and they go there instantly.

Then there is the issue of Clan tech having nothing that works at all except the lasers and everyone whines how OP it is.

Why not create a Battle Tech balance and let the tears fall?

Actually, Clan lasers absolutely dominated in Battletech. Well, all of them except the Clan SPL (which was atrociously terrible in TT).

The Clan LPL in particular was crazyballs even in TT. The -2 to-hit modifier combined with 10 pinpoint damage (TT doesn't have beam durations, lasers are basically PPFLD in TT) made the Clan LPL in a lighter and smaller PPC that didn't miss and had longer range. The Clan ERML was also even better with only 5 heat and 450m range...

#160 pwnface

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:34 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 30 October 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:


This was full of so much crap I wasn't sure where to start 'calling you out' on it. So we will start here:
When Clans were introduced I was running Stormcrows, and wreaking face. It didn't take long to realize that wasn't fun. Since then I have hung up my Clan mechs and meta mechs in favor of playing the game the way I want to play it. at the same time I feel it is incumbent upon me to lobby PGI for better gameplay and better matchmaking. That that is my challenge and fight.



As far as MischiefSC's point, I do think a lot of people fall into his characterization. I don't think it's fair to group ALL players who don't use meta builds in that category though. I think a lot of players are capable of doing very well with meta builds but choose not to because they enjoy playstyles that have more "flavor".





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