246 replies to this topic

[Yosharian]

I climbed into my PPC Vindicator yesterday and after one game where I failed to score 150 points I said **** it and got into my gauss ERML Hellbie and was pulling 500-800 dmg games one after the other pretty much straight away.

Some mechs/builds are piss-easy to score insane damage with and others are way harder to use effectively.

I think most people are simply asking for a little more balance. They're not all the whining pissbabies you make them out to be.

Edited by Yosharian, 30 October 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Sylonce]

Mister Blastman, on 30 October 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

...
If we can hit that target, the game will be in a fantastic state. But in all the MechWarrior games that I have played, we have never hit it. Mechwarrior 2 came somewhat close with Lasers/Missiles but ballistics were debatable. MechWarrior 3 had the unholy Laser Strider/Dire Whale Ultra Autocannon combo and the fourth installment was a balance disaster when it came out once folks figured out the power of large lasers. I did manage to make an Argus work in Mech 4. But it was tough as balls.
...

Mechwarrior 2 multiplayer really only had balance when players started using the "c" rules. Missiles were quite overpowered, and ballistics simply ran out of ammo before you can hit anything. Still, good times, and when people actually agreed on keeping a level playing field, it was damn fun.

And Mechwarrior 3... man, this was where meta really became a thing. Back before they patched 1.0, EVERYONE rolled around in dual LBX machines, because you can literally knock a mech over in one alpha, and kill by the second or third salvo. I think there is something that can be drawn from this: when a meta becomes an exploit, it becomes a problem. Then they patched it. I still remember the er small laser strider/scats, and dire whale uac boats fondly though.

Personally I found Mechwarrior 4 to be close. Yeah, jump sniping was a big issue until you started seeing servers that locked cockpit views, but there was actually a good use for autocannons, lasers, and missiles all. Medium and small lasers became less relevant though, and people still rocked gausses and large lasers, but hey.

[zagibu]

FupDup, on 30 October 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

People who hated (and still do hate) the PPFLD boogeyman got PPCs and ACs nerfed, which then led to laser vomit taking full dominance.

As I remember it, laser meta started only when the clans were introduced and IS mechs got laser quirks. PPCs and ACs were nerfed long before that. So I don't think your premise is correct in this case.

[adamts01]

I really think LRMs will be dangerous again after this ECM nerf. I can still hold my own with them. So there's at least that one weapon that will absolutely make a comeback bit not be OP. Clan streaks are already in a good place. Autocannons need some love (dire wolf aside.) The flamer.... At least they took it out if the adder. I don't like the laser targeting thing they're doing. It makes the boats a little harder to play but it also punishes my poor Mist Lynx. You can't torso twist with them but boated machine guns are kind of brutal. A little more nerf to lasers and reasonable quirks on the bad mechs and we're in a good place.

[COOL HANDS]

PholkLorr, on 29 October 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Weak, illogical players destroy their own game. Not the meta.

I would use harsher, simpler and more accurate terms to describe this group of players but i'm not sure if those are against the terms. Ever since i started playing this game, i have seen the same weak, self entitled players whining about how other people are better than them. I thought i'll post a riposte to their whining.

Every one of us have the same options to play whatever you think is the best. Why some people deliberately choose to play a bad build or playstyle and then whine that it is bad is beyond me.

It's like in World of warcraft, knowing that a build is bad and deliberately choosing that build. Or knowing that a 200 dps weapon is inferior to a 400 dps weapon and picking the 200 dps weapon because it's shinier. Or in real life, you need to destroy a wall and were given the option of choosing a sledgehammer or a penknife and choosing the penknife, then whining that the penknife isn't getting the job done as well as your friend who took the sledgehammer.

As to the comment from low skilled players saying that "meta tryhards" are not having fun, i have this to say:

Fun is subjective. Playing sub optimal builds is fun to you. Not so to me. I like playing optimal builds. I like steamrolling my enemies. And so far, i'm having a lot of fun doing just that.

Besides, if you're having so much fun using crappy builds, why are you crying and whining on the forums about how "meta tryhards" are steamrolling you? Or are you afraid that if you actually played the "meta" AND still played crappily, you wouldn't have an excuse to protect your already bruised ego? Your ego would be utterly destroyed beyond recognition.

When you say that you hate meta and that the current meta is destroying the game, what you're essentially saying is not so much that you hate meta. It's more of: I don't like the CURRENT meta and i want MY BUILD (which happens to be bad currently) to be the meta.

Guess what? If YOUR BUILD and playstyle became the new meta, I would take that build and steamroll you with it anyway.

The meta changes constantly. When it was poptarting, i used poptart builds and weapons and steamrolled with it. Now it's even easier, laser vomit. So i use laser vomit and steamroll with it. The meta changes and you must change along with it or be food for the steamrollers. This is the way of life.

Besides, even if you used the meta, you'll probably still be food. Given the same build/mech, some players are just flat out better than others. Given the same weapons, some soldiers are marksmen and some are cannon fodder. Given equal opportunities and equal tools, some people get farther ahead in life than others.

These are the hard truths of life.

Why am I not surprised a bunch of tier one players telling the rest of the player base beneath them that their weak and illogical because they decided to speak up on things wrong with the current game. Instead of being just yes men and going a long with it for the sake of sparring PGI's feelings. The problem isn't the weak and illogical as you say. The problem is the hierarchy waving their fingers at those they consider weak and telling them whats best for them and what they should or shouldn't do. Jesus come off your high horse little bit.

Edited by COOL HANDS, 30 October 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[FupDup]

zagibu, on 30 October 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

As I remember it, laser meta started only when the clans were introduced and IS mechs got laser quirks. PPCs and ACs were nerfed long before that. So I don't think your premise is correct in this case.

When the Clans dropped there was a decent amount of competition between poptart/PPC/AC/Gauss builds and big laser alphas. The Timbertart got JJs nerfed into the ground, and then the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Daishi got the PPC's velocity smacked down. After that point, with the main PPFLD weapon taken out of the picture, lasers were left to fill in the void leftover. Of course, Gauss was still used on the side because it has good synergy with lasers...

Sometime later the IS got quirks to try to bring them up to par with their Clan overlords. Some of those quirks were for lasers, some of those were for missiles and some were for Autocannons. Quirks didn't cause laser vomit, and in some cases they actually provided an alternative to laser vomit (e.g. Dragon 1N, whatever that ERPPC Thunderbolt variant was, Huginn, Oxide).

[CDLord HHGD]

ShinVector, on 30 October 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

I get it a little bit...

Have come across illogical Atlas pilots arguing that a light mech should NOT be allowed to kill a Atlas just because...
Some book says an Atlas can take on a company of Lights and leave the battle slightly damage with all the Lights dead...
Or something like that.. These people exists...

Edit...

Or one time there was this Oceanic group... That threaten to 'REPORT' me for tapping on JumpJets when I was in a Jenner... Apparently to them... I was using an 'Exploit'....

Again... These people exist...

I read that book.

For MWO though where there are no mech tiers (like in Star Trek Online where you have to be a certain level to unlock access to ships), the littlest mechs should have a good chance against the most meta of DWFs.

[H I A S]

zagibu, on 30 October 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

As I remember it, laser meta started only when the clans were introduced and IS mechs got laser quirks. PPCs and ACs were nerfed long before that. So I don't think your premise is correct in this case.

Poptardmeta -> Nerf JJ, PPC, desynch them from AC,s (AC10 still crap).
Between all this **** Clamz arived and still use ERPPC/Gauss. The PPC/JJ Nerf kills the Pinpoint and oldschool Jumpsniping. Laserhitregfixes do the Rest.
Fun Fact: People still blame me, when i bring my Popnova or my Gauss/ERPPC Summoner.

Ps:

Quote

Guess that's why CW is a ghost town and nobody who isn't already wants to be T1.

Here i loled hard.

/e: To slow. Thx Fup

Edited by arivio, 30 October 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[STEF_]

Can I add something?

There are 3, 4 players I saw playing in gauss+erml builds only.
Every single fukk1ng time.

The hilarious thing is that they troll every other players in game, because, in their opinions,any other players are bad players

Meanwhile I think that if they dare to pilot any other build, they would suck hard.
So, who is the bad player?

It's a pity that there is the name and shame rule....

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 30 October 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[Bobzilla]

What you fail to understand, is people find using the same mechs, with the same loadouts, in the same maps, in the same game modes vs the same mechs, with the same loadouts over and over gets really boring.

So what people are 'crying' for isn't getting rid of the meta, it's balancing the game so the choice isn't between being bad or being bored. You aren't against balance are you?

If you enjoy there being a dominate meta, then there is no point in playing a game with many choices and custom load outs, you're better off playing a game like pong where there is no choices.

Unless you enjoy the fact that you're able to gain an advantage over others, and thats what makes a "weak, self entitled player" in my eyes.

[adamts01]

I haven't had popcorn in like 3 months. This thread really needs popcorn. Tomorrow I'll buy some popcorn. This will still be going on and I'll eat that popcorn and read the new stuff and it will be glorious.

[Spleenslitta]

Steinar Bergstol, on 30 October 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

Right. First thing's first. I am a crappy pilot. This is verifiable fact. I am crap with my lore-friendly builds and I would be crap with the flavor of the month metabuild. In short, I am crap.

That said, lots of people are, like me, crap. Lots of People are, like me, the kind who don't really enjoy playing a metamech. Lots of people who are crap, like me, put money into this game. I suspect more people are like me than are l33t meta tryhards who can actually call themselves good at the game, and therein lies the problem with your argumen. As much as you might wish for us to play the game the way you do that is unlikely to happen, and if the game is balanced according to only the top players' preferences then many of these crap players with open wallets will eventually find something else to play (leaving only those crap players who, like me, are too old, stubborn and downright stupid to give up). This means PGI won't make enough money to keep the wheels turning. This means MWO dies. This means you don't get to play the game your way anymore and we don't get to play it our way. This should make us all sad.

And nobody lived happily ever after.

The end.

Godt å se en kar me sunt bondevett som ikkje trur han e det bæste som har skjedd med MWO sia serveran starta.

[DAYLEET]

zagibu, on 30 October 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

As I remember it, laser meta started only when the clans were introduced and IS mechs got laser quirks. PPCs and ACs were nerfed long before that. So I don't think your premise is correct in this case.

Yes and no, Clan did start the ball but it took a longass time for IS to get their quirks. And in between they lowered heat capacity and increased burn time on clan to try and balance them but it didnt really work and boating lasers was still the best option even though we still saw ppc gauss timby back then.

Edited by DAYLEET, 30 October 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[White Bear 84]

Mister Blastman, on 30 October 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Well... there are limitations to non-meta builds. That's why they aren't "meta." And you need to work harder to use them... and most are purely situational with drawbacks that meta users don't have to deal with.

Like the LRM 15 awesome

Shame these mechs generally work better in pug matches and don't have more of a place in group matches..

[Freeman 52]

Sorry, OP, but I think the problem with this game is player "factions" constantly blaming each other. In this case, even when you are right that people should play the game they have, not they want they dream of, telling them to get better/be smart/man up/get-off-my-lawn is a sure way to drive them away from this PvP game to PvE or just other games. Carry on and the population will decrease to the point where today's waiting times will seem short.

Instead, why not make this a welcoming community?

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Eh, 3 kills and 400 damage is easy in a cheeto (on an unrelated note all cheetos should be painted orange from the factory) or firestarter. So much so that it's rather dull. Hell in a meta light I'm not happy with less than 600 damage and 4 kills.

3 Kills and 400 damage in an ac20+1ML Raven 4x with SHS? That's entertaining. Still I'm not gonna complain about the cheetos in relation to my AC20 raven. Besides the WTF just shot me panicked reaction when I plant a couple AC20 rounds on an enemy meta light is worth the various losses.

[KahnWongFuChung]

The OP is crazy as a bed bug. First off the Devs of MWO did not learn a thing from the past MechWarrior2-4 PC IP games at all. They refuse to understand why people wanted to play those games and why millions of MechWarrior pilots had so much fun playing MechWarrior2-MechWarrior4 on in-game servers, PVE, or online in leagues and the MSN Gaming Zone.

And the Devs Refuse to listen to the players that played those games and still believe MWO is better off as a FPS COD WOT E-game knockoff and not a true MechWarrior IP game. As a longtime MechWarrior MW2-NOW player I can say Most Players want to battle in there stompy tough mech in battles solo or CW that are fun and ex-least have a game balanced to a point where skilled or un-skilled they can survive take good damage and give some as well.

This means the mechs must be able to survive massive alpha shots or focus fire long enough to get under cover and regroup to play a little longer and have a chance to have fun and do some damage. Having to be molded into cheese build mechs and load-outs is boring. It may be competitive but it is no fun running the same cheese build day in and day out in pointless short battles.

Most assaults and heavy's lack mobility to get under cover to evade massive weapons fire in MWO which results in quick deaths even with all the quirks and skill sets. Mediums are a little better but still all the classes except lights lack the agility that MechWarrior4 mechs had.

So with low armor terrible hit boxes and Over-Powered weapons on MWO Mechs the game becomes more of a WACK A MOLE GAME not a true MechWarrior game where pilots are having a good time killing each other in there stompy mechs that take good damage and have a good defensive and offensive balance.

MechWarrior2-4 games were not perfect games but any MWO pilot can still download the MechWarrio4 Mercenaries Demo off the net and right away see the huge difference in the way mechs move take more damage and how much more fun the game is with all the maps and different game modes.

My advice to Russ and PGI go back go back to the roots of the MechWarrior2-Mechwarrior4 PC games before MWO dies of repetitive gameplay and un-fun WACK A MOLE battles.

Edited by KahnWongFuChung, 30 October 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Mystere]

Sigh!

i think people are missing the point. It's not about what you are bringing. it's about whining about what you are bringing.

Sigh!

[Mazzyplz]

people who complain about builds are just terrible, horrible players.

people who complain their chassis or variant sucks are people having legitimate complaints and concerns

[Spleenslitta]

EchoFreebirth, on 30 October 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Sorry, OP, but I think the problem with this game is player "factions" constantly blaming each other. In this case, even when you are right that people should play the game they have, not they want they dream of, telling them to get better/be smart/man up/get-off-my-lawn is a sure way to drive them away from this PvP game to PvE or just other games. Carry on and the population will decrease to the point where today's waiting times will seem short.

Instead, why not make this a welcoming community?

That is good argument. There are 2 things that worries me above all else about these threads that tries to force players to play a certain way.
The Lesser worry is if this thread alone made a couple of new players think -

- This is what the MWO community is like? I've heard the MWO community is more mature than other gaming communities.
i'm actually glad my paycheck won't come till next week. If it came yesterday i would have splurged on a mech package for sure.
I should look around to see if there are any other games i can spend my money on.

2 new players not investing in the game may not sound like much but you must think about what happens in the long run.

My Major worry is what would happen if one of these threads shows up on the Steam MWO forums when MWO releases there.
Imagine one of these threads showing up there on the Steam release date.
That could be a major disaster with a lot of potential customers just going elsewhere.
PGI decided to go to Steam for increased profits whether you like it or not.

Some of you may not want MWO to launch on Steam, but it will happen and we have to make the best of it.
If there is less profit than expected when MWO launches on Steam. Let's say PGI sees 7% less money than they expected because of such a thread.
7% less money from the Steam release may not sound like much to you, but we are talking about a money pile so big that PGI can pay afford to get several new fulltime staff members for that money that could be lost.

Not just any staffmember either. People with enourmous talent like Alex.
A few examples

- Talented coder to fix the ammunition code so we can have multiple ammunition types.
- A genius who can fix the entire hit registration issue within a week.
- A map maker that can actually make several CW maps without bottlenecks but which are still defensible.

Russ will sweat bricks if the Steam release turns into a flop. He might even get so nervous that he might make a really big mistake in desperation.
The kinda mistake that could crush MWO completly if we are very unlucky.
It's unlikely that Russ would make such a mistake but you never know since we're talking about a very large amount of cash here.

The Steam release will probably be the largest influx of money PGI has seen in a very long time.
If it goes flop MWO's life will shorten by quite a lot and that part is not speculation...that's very much real.

PGI will only keep the servers running till MWO stops showing a certain amount of profit. They won't wait to shut the servers down if they see a steady decline of money.
They need to put food on the table. Alex won't work for free you know. Without Alex working on our mechs.....

Edited by Spleenslitta, 30 October 2015 - 11:05 AM.