34 replies to this topic

[l33tworks]

I think we can all agree Atlas is on the "lacking" side in the current state of the game.

The whole point of the re-balance is to even out the playing field with some of the under performing chassis. I think its fair to say the Atlas in general deserves at least bit of a buff after the Re balance.

However, lets have realistic think about the proposed changes, and guess at what will happen to mechs like the poor old Atlas when they go Live.

Likely Reduction or removal of IS weapon quirks

Can't be good thing for an already weapon challenged IS mech.

Target Profile values

Atlas will have the hugest target profile value in the game. It already has trouble getting into sub 270m brawling distance, the only position in which it can undeniably dish out more damage than a light mech, the last thing it needs is to be exclusively targeted from kilometer away and blown to bits before it even gets off the base. Being the biggest of the big, Atlas will be the biggest looser in this Target profile value changes.

New reduced sensor range and target acquisition rates

Assault mechs will get the worst possible values in the game. Atlas being the biggest of the big will be the biggest looser in this regard.

New changes needing Target lock in order to deal full damage with lasers (for now).

Having the worst sensor ranges, the Atlas is the biggest looser in this regard.

ECM changed from denial to 3 second delay.

Atlas, an out in the open brawling mech, will be the biggest looser in this regard. I never thought the day would come where you MAY be better off not to take ECM on a DDC. There would be no difference in taking it or not.

All of the above stacks for multiplied losses. Reduction in weapon quirks, largest Target profile, worst sensors, having to target mechs to deal full damage with lasers, No usefull ECM cover, it is made even more helpless to fight back multiplied by a factor plus a factor plus a factor plus a factor x some factors.


Heat Capacity reduction.

I don't think this will change how people poke out, alpha, poke back. In fact it may do the opposite, and reduce brawling and pushing even more since as soon as you fire you will be overheating and will need to find cover. I think it will hurt an Atlas since will not have the staying power to be able to push and alpha a few times without shutting down.


And lastly, for compensation for for all these, we maybe get a 30-50pt structure buff to the CT on some variants.

Whilst a lot of the proposed changes may look good on paper and sound good on their own, when combined, I cant help but feel its going in the wrong direction for so many mechs and playstyes like brawling, which people want more of, not less off, case in point the Atlas.

The Atlas is going to be one giant dead ****, more so than it is now, if it was possible to do it, this is how to do it.

Thoughts?

[Yosharian]

These changes aren't designed to help dead chassis like the Atlas compete. They're designed to fix the problem of not having role warfare.

To clarify: I'm not saying that the Atlas doesn't need buffs. It does. I'm simply saying that these changes aren't designed to do that.

Edited by Yosharian, 31 October 2015 - 05:45 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

These changes aren't designed to help dead chassis like the Atlas compete. They're designed to fix the problem of not having role warfare.

Except having dead chassis doesnt promote role warfare.

If the Atlas' role is supposed to be a face-tanking brawler than that role needs to be made viable.

1) atlas is too slow and needs the LFE added to the game so it can reinvest the saved tonnage into going faster.
2) atlas is highly dependent on SRMs and needs stronger SRMs to be a viable brawler.
3) atlas needs more armor on its side torsos to better protect what few weapons it has.

Quote

Heat Capacity reduction.

I vote no to heat cap reduction. All that would accomplish is making dual gauss the best loadout. Gauss is already one of the best weapons. And would be elevated to god status after reduced heat cap strangles all heat generating weapons. If you reduce heat cap any mech that cant use dual gauss will become obsolete overnight.

The problem isnt the heat cap. The problem is convergence. The reason the Atlas dies so quickly is because people can converge all their weapons into one location. It has nothing to do with heat cap. And lowering heat cap still doesnt stop convergence from being abused by dual gauss builds.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2015 - 05:00 AM.

[l33tworks]

Yosharian, on 31 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

These changes aren't designed to help dead chassis like the Atlas compete. They're designed to fix the problem of not having role warfare.

And how are they going about making role warware? By making current under performing chassis have a role. And how do they do that? By making them have certain usefull traits which will make them be more competitve. and how do they do that? By definition, by buffing them. Because good mechs already compete now therefore underperforming mechs will be "helped" to compete better.

So then that begs the question what role does an Atlas play in this role warware if it gets nothing but nerfs and no help? I didn't realize "Dead chassis" was a role in warware...

[Metus regem]

Khobai, on 31 October 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Except having dead chassis doesnt promote role warfare.

If the Atlas' role is supposed to be a face-tanking brawler than that role needs to be made viable.

Rather the role of the Atlas is a generalist forward Command mech. What it needs to really shine, is melee, let it put those big fists to use.

That being said, part of the issue we have is with the current heat cap is it is allowing for very high pin-point Alpha strike damage, another part of the same problem is instant perfect convergance.

[El Bandito]

l33tworks, on 31 October 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

ECM changed from denial to 3 second delay.

Atlas, an out in the open brawling mech, will be the biggest looser in this regard. I never thought the day would come where you MAY be better off not to take ECM on a DDC. There would be no difference in taking it or not.

What is this non-sense? The ECM's 3 second delay means the D-DC is that much protected from laser snapshots, as shooting a mech without target lock will heavily reduce laser range. ECM is still damn vital!

[l33tworks]

Not to mention Yosharain, you are in fact just plain wrong about the changes not being designed to help a dead chassis compete.

A few months ago, before PTS 1 even came out, Phil from NGNG was talking about it on one of his you tube streams after obvious communication with PGI on the matter. I think it was the day after the Town hall when they announced the rebalance.

He specially said in reference to the changes, words to the effect of "All I can say is, if you have some mechs or chassis that you feel are underperforming, all I can say is dont sell them, just wait for the rebalance"

[Khobai]

Quote

Rather the role of the Atlas is a generalist forward Command mech. What it needs to really shine, is melee, let it put those big fists to use.

Why would that make it shine?

The Atlas is super slow. And you think giving it a point blank attack will fix it? When virtually every other mech in the game can outrun it?

You will never get into melee with anything. Melee is actually the last thing the Atlas needs.

Adding melee to the game would require a lot of work on PGIs part, because they have to redo all the arm animations for existing mechs, and quite frankly its not worth the effort involved when you consider how many other pressing issues the game has.

Quote

That being said, part of the issue we have is with the current heat cap is it is allowing for very high pin-point Alpha strike damage, another part of the same problem is instant perfect convergance.

Except you can still do very high pinpoint alpha strike damage even with a lower heat cap simply by using dual gauss. Say you lower the heat cap to 30 like some of you nutters want. I can still fire 2 gauss and 4 ERML for 26 heat which does 58 pinpoint damage. Youve fixed NOTHING.

Lowering heat cap doesnt fix the problem. it just forces everyone into using dual gauss. and high pinpoint alphas will still be business as usual. Lowering heat cap would stifle other weapon options and elevate gauss to godlike status.

Again the better solution is one that fixes convergence.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2015 - 05:15 AM.

[l33tworks]

El Bandito, on 31 October 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

What is this non-sense? The ECM's 3 second delay means the D-DC is that much protected from laser snapshots, as shooting a mech without target lock will heavily reduce laser range. ECM is still damn vital!

Yea right..

People popping over a hill and shooting you, are usually not enemies you are aware of or looking at, otherwise they wouldn't be popping out, and especially wont be under 270m for your SRMS to work. People shooting you will be mechs from a bit further away, which as an atlas, you are almost harmless to, and they will be mechs that you do not know are there, and will have plenty of time to lock you, or have you already locked by a team mate, or already have target decay meaning they can have you lock while they go back in cover and come back out again.

Don't be so naive, I was obviously exaggerating about ECM not being not much use taking it, but just wait and see how little difference it will make on the DDC.

Edited by l33tworks, 31 October 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[oldradagast]

Yosharian, on 31 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

These changes aren't designed to help dead chassis like the Atlas compete. They're designed to fix the problem of not having role warfare.

More precisely, they are designed to "shake things up" by upending the current game, trashing a whole bunch of marginal mechs, and ramming "role warefare" down our throats.

Really, there is still only one "role" - killing the other team (and based on the new roadmap, Skirmish will be about all anyone ever sees played once voting starts), but now some mechs will be gimped in various ways in this role.

The "vision" is that the group will work together as a happy team so they can get locks and shoot the bad guys. The reality is that such teamwork only exists in large teams in the group queue, so they'll become even more dominant there over small teams. Additionally, nothing can save IS mechs at this point if they remove the weapon quirks, so they'll all be on the trash heap. Finally, the end result will just be some new solo-mech meta; whichever mech is capable of operating alone and dealing the most pinpoint damage to one component at long ranges will be the winner of all this nonsense. The losers will be everyone who already bought mechs - because functionality will heavily change, anyone who plays IS, and anyone who plays in small groups or PUG's since now you will be far more dependent upon forced "teamwork" to cover your mech's new gaping weaknesses.

Yeah, it's going to be "fun" if this nonsense goes live.

Edited by oldradagast, 31 October 2015 - 05:16 AM.

[El Bandito]

l33tworks, on 31 October 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Yea right..

People poping over a hill and shooting you, are usually not enemies aware of or looking at, and especially wont be under 270m for your SRMS to word.

My SRMs? What? My Atlases have not fired any SRMs for the entire duration of 2015--I used LPLs+AC20/LRMs. In fact, once the ECM rework comes through, my AS7-S and D-DC will be even more happy with their LRMs.

[Khobai]

Quote

My SRMs? What? My Atlases have not fired any SRMs for the entire duration of 2015--I used LPLs+AC20/LRMs. In fact, once the ECM rework comes through, my AS7-S and D-DC will be even more happy with their LRMs.

Why use the Atlas for LRMs? Its not quirked for LRMs at all. Even a hunchback is a better LRM boat.

[SgtMagor]

Atlas and for that matter any 90ton-100ton mech needs armor, and structure buffs. their supposed to be bullet sponges, walls of armor, and that the weapon systems last long enough to be a threat so its lance mates can attack freely while they make a push to disable any enemy mechs. It just doesn't make sense that an Atlas sensor system will be impaired because its an assault (HUH), its supposed to carry a satellite dish on its head (whats up with that?) so how can a mech that is commonly used for command purposes suddenly have inefficient sensors! meh...as far as speed goes, put superchargers on them

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 31 October 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

Why use the Atlas for LRMs? Its not quirked for LRMs at all. Even a hunchback is a better LRM boat.

Cause SRMs suck. Better to slap LRM5 or 10 in there. Atlas has too few non-missile hardpoints anyway. My Lurmlas-S had never failed to earn me big cash.

[sycocys]

XL engine, LPLs, SRM6s, and the biggest AC you can fit with the remaining weight and slots. Go light up people's faces.

Took the ecm off my D-DC a long time ago. Don't need it on any of my other assaults, why would I need it on the D-DC.

[Shae Starfyre]

I have to approach this with the idea that Quirks may be gone; will it affect my DDC load-out, not sure.

Since I first bought the DDC; maybe my 4th Mech; the first build I gravitated to was 2xUAC5, 2xMPL, and 3xSSRM2, and ECM of course. This gave me some distance shooting capability, and close range light defense and DPS potential.

I still play this today; sometimes I do poorly, and sometimes I can reach over 500 damage, and just today a 5 kill game.

Personally, every change they are proposing, and when factoring in the pilot, is all circumstantial and anecdotal game play (unless you are playing groups, which I cannot comment on).

This Atlas build as served me well since Open Beta and still has good and bad days, like every other mech (except the ACH of course )

Note: I have redone my build to include the Command Console in preparation for what it may do in the new system proposed (which has improved my eye sight some on zoom and bonuses in other areas).

Edited by Aphoticus, 31 October 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[Elizander]

Let IS SRMs fire up to 4 without Ghost Heat (Happy Atlas S)

[adamts01]

Khobai, on 31 October 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

Say you lower the heat cap to 30 like some of you nutters want. I can still fire 2 gauss and 4 ERML for 26 heat which does 58 pinpoint damage. Youve fixed NOTHING.

Lowering heat cap doesnt fix the problem. it just forces everyone into using dual gauss.in the better solution is one that fixes convergence.

I hate that all you see is high alpha laser boats. I think just as much as that, I hate this gauss argument. It's the cornerstone of any argument against a lower heat cap. The only mechs that can equip dual guass plus those lasers are a few assaults, they're already doing that and it isn't the problem. The problem is my 61 point alpha laser vomit 75 ton that also doesn't run ridiculously hot. Same with my 55 ton 57 point medium. Both the crow and timber can only equip 1 gauss and a few mediums. That's a weaker, ammo dependent and harder to use meta than we have now with a fragile weapon. More than 2 gauss was a problem so they only let you charge 2.if gauss does somehow become ridiculously god like they can slightly tone it down. I do agree with you that convergence should be a thing, or an icreasing cone of fire as you add direct fire weapons to an alpha.

Edited by adamts01, 31 October 2015 - 05:48 AM.

[sycocys]

Elizander, on 31 October 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

Let IS SRMs fire up to 4 without Ghost Heat (Happy Atlas S)

I just do it the lazy way - 1 grouped with the LPLs, 3 grouped with the cannon. Otherwise I'd put them on the 3rd button and chain them to shake em up between pulses and dakka rounds.

[Yosharian]

Khobai, on 31 October 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Except having dead chassis doesnt promote role warfare.

I agree. What about my post made you think otherwise? I'm simply stating that these changes aren't designed to fix the problems you're talking about.

I never said that we don't need further changes to fix dead chassis... If you read any of my posts on this forum you know I regularly advocate for balance changes to shore up dead chassis and bring down meta-kings.

l33tworks, on 31 October 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

So then that begs the question what role does an Atlas play in this role warware if it gets nothing but nerfs and no help? I didn't realize "Dead chassis" was a role in warware...

It needs buffs, obviously. When did I say I wasn't in favour of buffing the Atlas?

l33tworks, on 31 October 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Not to mention Yosharain, you are in fact just plain wrong about the changes not being designed to help a dead chassis compete.

A few months ago, before PTS 1 even came out, Phil from NGNG was talking about it on one of his you tube streams after obvious communication with PGI on the matter. I think it was the day after the Town hall when they announced the rebalance.

He specially said in reference to the changes, words to the effect of "All I can say is, if you have some mechs or chassis that you feel are underperforming, all I can say is dont sell them, just wait for the rebalance"

l33tworks, on 31 October 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Phil from NGNG

l33tworks, on 31 October 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Phil

That said, it's good advice. Nobody knows what mechs may turn out to be powerful after the next few iterations hit.

To reiterate, I'm simply saying that these specific changes referenced here have nothing to do with fixing specific underperforming chassis. I'm expecting other changes will do that.

oldradagast, on 31 October 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

More precisely, they are designed to "shake things up" by upending the current game, trashing a whole bunch of marginal mechs, and ramming "role warefare" down our throats.

Really, there is still only one "role" - killing the other team (and based on the new roadmap, Skirmish will be about all anyone ever sees played once voting starts), but now some mechs will be gimped in various ways in this role.

The "vision" is that the group will work together as a happy team so they can get locks and shoot the bad guys. The reality is that such teamwork only exists in large teams in the group queue, so they'll become even more dominant there over small teams. Additionally, nothing can save IS mechs at this point if they remove the weapon quirks, so they'll all be on the trash heap. Finally, the end result will just be some new solo-mech meta; whichever mech is capable of operating alone and dealing the most pinpoint damage to one component at long ranges will be the winner of all this nonsense. The losers will be everyone who already bought mechs - because functionality will heavily change, anyone who plays IS, and anyone who plays in small groups or PUG's since now you will be far more dependent upon forced "teamwork" to cover your mech's new gaping weaknesses.

Yeah, it's going to be "fun" if this nonsense goes live.

I mostly agree. I'm not optimistic about certain changes either. I think the laser changes combined with the ECM change may produce good effects.