84 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

BL-7-KNT-L

BL-6-KNT

TBR-S

The TBR can do everything better than the BL-KNT with 3 jumpjets.

The BL KNT is clearly DOA and not everyone agrees on that but I do.

Compare it to a few medium mechs and its even worse.

SCR-PRIME

CRB-27SL

Faster and a few tons lighter but able to be as strong as a BL-KNT

Edited by Xetelian, 02 November 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Sorry for the late reply here, but didn't we "all" already know that the BK was just a 75 ton Awesome8Q?

The concept art showed an all-energy Mech with hip-high mounts (a few holdouts refuse to believe/accept this, though). There was no question at all that it was a jumping Awesome, and nothing more.

Why do we even talk about this Mech anymore? Seriously, it was only bought by 3 types of people: PokéMech collectors (those who buy full packs just to have them), Nostalgics, and people who wanted Laser Vomit over all other things.

All 3 of those crowds should be satisfied by what they bought.

People looking for combat-proficient Mechs just avoided it because it is just that- not designed as a Combat Vehicle. The Black Knight is comic book art, and nothing more. Don't act like it was supposed to be the next Timberwolf or anything, as there was NO reason to think it would be a good Mech in combat.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 November 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

DivineEvil, on 02 November 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

... but few if any survived into the 31st century. Maybe you're the one who should learn.

None of the variants provided are equipped with Jump-Jets, and none of the variants listed on Sarna has any either, so your point is mute.

The few that survived into the 31rst century happens to be the Black Knights we are piloting right here and right now in this video game and the lore supports the notion that pilots add jump jets to them. What is so hard for you to understand? My point is taken directly from lore. It cannot be mute. Learn to read.

[DAYLEET]

Made a MALIWAN skin for mine, maybe when the heavy queue isnt 50% ill be able to play it.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 November 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

because no factory variant came with JJs. Those were occasional custom jobs. They decided to limit JJs. If your Bks could have them, technically pretty much ANY mech in MWO should.

No because the lore section on sarna for those mechs without jj's do not mention that pilots fit them with jj's, only the black knights does. Look all im saying is pgi could have added jj's to a variant because of the lore backing it up. Your opinion that that shouldent be the case is understood.

Edited by Alwrath, 02 November 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Elizander]

I don't need a Black Knight to laservomit. The HBK-4P does it just fine with 3 LL and 6 ML with higher mounts.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I got it because it was pretty and figured it won't be terribad.

I wasn't disappoint.

But I'm also an AWS pilot. So there's that...

But it's just lazvomit. Now go out and make the Emperor proud.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

Sorry for the late reply here, but didn't we "all" already know that the BK was just a 75 ton Awesome8Q?

The concept art showed an all-energy Mech with hip-high mounts (a few holdouts refuse to believe/accept this, though). There was no question at all that it was a jumping Awesome, and nothing more.

Why do we even talk about this Mech anymore? Seriously, it was only bought by 3 types of people: PokéMech collectors (those who buy full packs just to have them), Nostalgics, and people who wanted Laser Vomit over all other things.

All 3 of those crowds should be satisfied by what they bought.

People looking for combat-proficient Mechs just avoided it because it is just that- not designed as a Combat Vehicle. The Black Knight is comic book art, and nothing more. Don't act like it was supposed to be the next Timberwolf or anything, as there was NO reason to think it would be a good Mech in combat.

IS mechs in this game are dependent on quirks. While the 6B variant is ok, pgi messed up on the quirks overall for the black knight. People are not and should not be satisfied because pgi did not balance them properly with quirks. Every mech in the game is designed for combat. Honestly your post makes me wonder if you are playing the same game, its kinda trollish.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alwrath, on 02 November 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

No because the lore section on sarna for those mechs without jj's do not mention that pilots fit them with jj's, only the black knights does. Look all im saying is pgi could have added jj's to a variant because of the lore backing it up. Your opinion that that shouldent be the case is understood.

Nothing to do with an opinion. PGI aside form some made up ones, has stuck to FACTORY variants.

If we want to go by your selective reading of the sarna post "Some were modified with a number of non-standard components such as jump jets but few if any survived into the Thirty-first century"

Let's acknowledge the entirety, which is by the same post, the likelihood is, none exist.

And stop trying to lawyer out of the text... "some were modified". Just Because not every mech has that line verbatim regarding JJs, is pretty disingenuous, as that same customization that allows for it on a BK allows for it on ANY mech.

Note, for a non jumping mech that had JJs added as an official canon variant, just look to the Crusader 3L.
"The Crusader was initially designed as a close combat 'Mech. Instead, the weapons payload that it carries allow it to work as a multi-role 'Mech that, while not excelling in any one role, is capable of accomplishing most missions that are assigned to it. The Crusader has a ground speed of 64.8 km/h, which is on par with most other 'Mechs of the heavy weight class. Like most heavy 'Mechs, it cannot jump. Additionally, it is armored with twelve tons of Reise-500 armor, giving it a great deal of armor protection."

but it was modified to create a "standard" version, the canon 3L.

There are no such entries for the Black Knight. Because it was few, far between, done on individual basis by individual owners.... just like any other field modification, which ANY mech could have done.

And of course, there's that part where the few that were modified thusly, no longer exist.

I get it, you want a Jumping Black Knight.

The contortions of logic you are using to bash PGIs decision not to add one, is what I am questioning.

If PGI had decided to make a PGI variant that jumped, I would be fine with that. Of course, we sort of have that...it's called a Grasshopper.

Irregardless, PGI did not so choose, since there were plentiful (if boring and androgynous) variants already available. Should they be better quirked? Yes (well, really, most IS mechs need a complete quirk overhaul, but that's a different story) but should PGI have gone out of their way to make one jump?

No.

And I have yet to see a good reason presented to convince me otherwise.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 November 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[DAYLEET]

If jj were open to all mech, the weight would be a balance mechanic enough.

[Water Bear]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

Sorry for the late reply here, but didn't we "all" already know that the BK was just a 75 ton Awesome8Q?

The concept art showed an all-energy Mech with hip-high mounts (a few holdouts refuse to believe/accept this, though). There was no question at all that it was a jumping Awesome, and nothing more.

Why do we even talk about this Mech anymore? Seriously, it was only bought by 3 types of people: PokéMech collectors (those who buy full packs just to have them), Nostalgics, and people who wanted Laser Vomit over all other things.

All 3 of those crowds should be satisfied by what they bought.

People looking for combat-proficient Mechs just avoided it because it is just that- not designed as a Combat Vehicle. The Black Knight is comic book art, and nothing more. Don't act like it was supposed to be the next Timberwolf or anything, as there was NO reason to think it would be a good Mech in combat.

Getting somewhat OT, I have seen threads on this forum before where people complained about a 'mech they bought turned out to suck. IIRC it was some 20 or 25 ton light. All I could say was, "everyone knew by looking at the numbers that mech was going to blow. Make better decisions next time."

Sometimes in this game, a mech is just not very good. So far, all the resistance mechs are pretty much tier 3 on a scale of 1-5 due to being underquirked. I haven't even checked the quirks on the R2 mechs but they are not threatening in combat, any of them.

Edit: Wait, no, the Mauler is threatening. Yep, that's it.

Edited by Water Bear, 02 November 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DAYLEET, on 02 November 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

If jj were open to all mech, the weight would be a balance mechanic enough.

not really. Especially with 1JJ still being too useful... while in anything over a medium, multiple JJs are not.

JJ system should be reworked entirely. With 1 JJ next to useless, and thrust scaling for every JJ added. Just my opinion, but it's already bullocks that we got the ability to rip out our mechs whole skeleton at will... let alone adding something like JJs, which would require massive re-engineering to add (safely).... we ain't just talking a jetpack, but compensators, control surfaces, modifying gyro stabilizers... it should not be a slap on.

Mind you, I think distance should be the fixed... 1 JJ gives X height, and Z horizontal. 2 gives double, 3, triple, etc. What should scale is the speed of the thrust, and duration of fuel. Your 1 JJ mech SHOULD be a slow poker like the Highlander is with 1 JJ.... and for every added, it should gain height and distance faster, while under thrust.

Then, weight might be a partial balancer. As they are now, it is not at all.

Truth to tell, sometimes, I wish JJs were locked, period. (other times, not so much, but it would certainly have impacted the abusers most)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 November 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 November 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

not really. Especially with 1JJ still being too useful... while in anything over a medium, multiple JJs are not.

JJ system should be reworked entirely. With 1 JJ next to useless, and thrust scaling for every JJ added. Just my opinion, but it's already bullocks that we got the ability to rip out our mechs whole skeleton at will... let alone adding something like JJs, which would require massive re-engineering to add (safely).... we ain't just talking a jetpack, but compensators, control surfaces, modifying gyro stabilizers... it should not be a slap on.

Truth to tell, sometimes, I wish JJs were locked, period. (other times, not so much, but it would certainly have impacted the abusers most)

Maybe if my 70ton battlemech could walk through a treeroot or fire at it 1 jj wouldnt be such a buff. But you're right, right now a single jj can be the difference between life/death. My 1jj Dire can attest to that. Slight slope defeat my battlemech. Just make it slow to go over sharp angle terrain.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 November 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Truth to tell, sometimes, I wish JJs were locked, period. (other times, not so much, but it would certainly have impacted the abusers most)

Locked JJ and clan xl for everyone, count me in!

Edited by DAYLEET, 02 November 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Water Bear, on 02 November 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Getting somewhat OT, I have seen threads on this forum before where people complained about a 'mech they bought turned out to suck. IIRC it was some 20 or 25 ton light. All I could say was, "everyone knew by looking at the numbers that mech was going to blow. Make better decisions next time."

Sometimes in this game, a mech is just not very good. So far, all the resistance mechs are pretty much tier 3 on a scale of 1-5 due to being underquirked. I haven't even checked the quirks on the R2 mechs but they are not threatening in combat, any of them.

Edit: Wait, no, the Mauler is threatening. Yep, that's it.

Mauler is a decent tier 2/high 3 Mech...but not terribly threatening

[Felicitatem Parco]

Alwrath, on 02 November 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

IS mechs in this game are dependent on quirks. While the 6B variant is ok, pgi messed up on the quirks overall for the black knight. People are not and should not be satisfied because pgi did not balance them properly with quirks. Every mech in the game is designed for combat. Honestly your post makes me wonder if you are playing the same game, its kinda trollish.

Not trollish, just a little complacent and *slightky* bitter at this point. I have seen all the Mechs hit the deck since Closed Beta, and some of them are released in a deliberately-inferior manner Just Because.

Do you see any reason why the Commandos should have only 4 hardpoints and no jumpjets? There is no reason, they simply decided to make it suck. Do you see any reason why the Awesome and Black Knight have nothing but low-mounted hardpoints? Because the Art said so.

Yes, I am playing the same game as you, and I agree that all Mechs SHOULD be combat-capable and a strong threat... But that's not the game you and I are playing. Unfortunately, this game has combat assets that don't hold snuff to the demands of in-game combat. It's time to either accept that, or raise a big fuss about it .

Essentially, if you want to complain about the "Black Knight 8Q" then you should also ask them to fix other poorly-designed Mechs like Commandos, Dragons, and others.

[ShadowFire]

Flash Frame, on 01 November 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

Then why are you here? Why, do you care? What possible reason do you have to be invested in a game that's based on the universe of "Battletech."?

No, I'm curious. because if you just want "giant robots fighting." go play any of the other giant robot fighting games.

Mechwarrior is based on Battletech... Battletech has 30 years of lore. You DO NOT just toss that crap to the winds because you can.

These mechs are made with specific jobs in mind, just because you want to min max and abuse the system, doesn't mean the GM's [ie in this case PGI] need to let you.

If PGI built mechs like you wanted, we'd be back to Mechwarrior 3's system of "every mech is an omni mech" and any weapon/piece of equipment can go anywhere in any amount so long as you had the crit space and tonnage. And we've seen how bad that ends up.

Odd how you keep saying "you"...... I have read and enjoyed most of the Battletech Books.... You can still find them in used bookstores and online. I get the lore.... However, most of the real world Does... Not... Care.... Do you think many of the young Steam generation know any of it? Absolutely not, but hopefully some might want to learn. It does give the game a much richer experience.

Another fact to consider, when one is fighting a shooting war, one opens the stops on creativity to get that extra edge. Many gamers playing World of Warships/Tanks, War Thunder, etc... really all the WWII games, know that limited run prototypes were fielded, mods made of fielded weapons, and captured war material re-utilized. And in the end many of these programs proved well worth the effort. Yes some did fail, but hey even that always kept the other side guessing as to what would come at them next.

Taking this a step further, do you realize what happened to all that war surplus WWII gear left over after the war.... Well the 2nd and third would countries bought lots of it and proceeded to mod and upgrade it to fight many wars over the next 50 years. Some airplanes, tanks and ships were not recognizable as compared to their WWII configurations. Would'nt one think it would be any different in a Battletech universe? No.

One finial note. As for PGI, they are governed by the real world too. They have to SELL this game. That means, thou shall not screw over their customers and thou shall enable their customers to have FUN. PGI is doing a pretty good job, and they are steadily getting better at it. But yes, they still do make mistakes. To field a named mech like the Black Knight with such mediocre builds... well most folks, even the die-hard Battletech/Mechwarrior fans, are going to be somewhat disappointed. And all the thumping on the "Bible of Lore" will not help.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

ShadowFire, on 02 November 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Odd how you keep saying "you"...... I have read and enjoyed most of the Battletech Books.... You can still find them in used bookstores and online. I get the lore.... However, most of the real world Does... Not... Care.... Do you think many of the young Steam generation know any of it? Absolutely not, but hopefully some might want to learn. It does give the game a much richer experience.

Another fact to consider, when one is fighting a shooting war, one opens the stops on creativity to get that extra edge. Many gamers playing World of Warships/Tanks, War Thunder, etc... really all the WWII games, know that limited run prototypes were fielded, mods made of fielded weapons, and captured war material re-utilized. And in the end many of these programs proved well worth the effort. Yes some did fail, but hey even that always kept the other side guessing as to what would come at them next.

Taking this a step further, do you realize what happened to all that war surplus WWII gear left over after the war.... Well the 2nd and third would countries bought lots of it and proceeded to mod and upgrade it to fight many wars over the next 50 years. Some airplanes, tanks and ships were not recognizable as compared to their WWII configurations. Would'nt one think it would be any different in a Battletech universe? No.

One finial note. As for PGI, they are governed by the real world too. They have to SELL this game. That means, thou shall not screw over their customers and thou shall enable their customers to have FUN. PGI is doing a pretty good job, and they are steadily getting better at it. But yes, they still do make mistakes. To field a named mech like the Black Knight with such mediocre builds... well most folks, even the die-hard Battletech/Mechwarrior fans, are going to be somewhat disappointed. And all the thumping on the "Bible of Lore" will not help.

Then, at the end of the day, this isn't the game for them.

Keep the lore intact, and make your moves via the lore.

If people get interested, they dive deeper into the lore. If not, they move on. JUST LIKE ANY GAME EVER!

it's really that simple. There's no reason to discard established stuff, just because the "Current generation doesn't get it." Because good for them. They are not the ones that helped fund this beast 3+ years ago, they're not the ones that were championing a new mechwarrior game since '09. They're not the ones that grew up on Mechwarrior.

If they want to come play in the playground that is Battletech, then so be it, but I'll be goddamned if I'm going to put up with whining and crying about things that ARE Battletech, when you've come into the house that Battletech built! You adapt to the lore, or you move on.

Battletech, and by extension Mechwarrior... and even further MECHA in general... are niche... You cater to the niche... because you will never, ever, successfully diversify the niche enough to draw in a bigger crowd.

People either end up drawn to the niche, or ignore it.

Edited by Flash Frame, 02 November 2015 - 06:02 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 November 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

And I have yet to see a good reason presented to convince me otherwise.

I guess Sarna Lore isnt good enough for you as a reason for mechs having equipment that it states they could have then.

Flash Frame, on 02 November 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

You adapt to the lore, or you move on.

So much this. If only PGI paid attention to all the lore, then we would have a JJ Black Knight.

Edited by Alwrath, 02 November 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

What would make the BK and many other energy boats more enjoyable? Simple roll back some of the penalties on ERPPCs and PPCs. I am not saying roll them back so someone can run around with 6 or more and be effective. I am talking about boosting the speed of the bolt back up to the same as a gauss if not faster (considering it is lightning). Then maybe remove the penalty for 2 ERPPCs or lower the heat down some what. I am not saying to lower the heat down to ER Large but maybe just above it and allowing you to shoot 2 ERPPCs with decent effect.

This would allow a BK to carry 1 or 2 ERPPCs to effect and then back them up with simpler lasers.

Edited by clownwarlord, 02 November 2015 - 06:18 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

Not trollish, just a little complacent and *slightky* bitter at this point. I have seen all the Mechs hit the deck since Closed Beta, and some of them are released in a deliberately-inferior manner Just Because.

Do you see any reason why the Commandos should have only 4 hardpoints and no jumpjets? There is no reason, they simply decided to make it suck. Do you see any reason why the Awesome and Black Knight have nothing but low-mounted hardpoints? Because the Art said so.

Yes, I am playing the same game as you, and I agree that all Mechs SHOULD be combat-capable and a strong threat... But that's not the game you and I are playing. Unfortunately, this game has combat assets that don't hold snuff to the demands of in-game combat. It's time to either accept that, or raise a big fuss about it .

Essentially, if you want to complain about the "Black Knight 8Q" then you should also ask them to fix other poorly-designed Mechs like Commandos, Dragons, and others.

Fix what? Role warfare? Maybe create situations that benefit certain mechs over others instead of a scoring system and maps that favor one style of play. Is that what you are looking for?

Instead we have desirable mechs and undesirable mechs. Mechs that people will pay for and ones they will not. People will not buy the Black knight unless it is a small child that likes the name or the look. Even after the "fix".

In the battletech universe spare parts were the great equalizer. If that was the case Black Knight owners would have an overwhelming inventory and eventually spare parts everyone else to oblivion.