67 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

This discussion has been coming up again and again and will go on until people quarrel in the thread.

Anyway, it is a combination of high alpha and pinpoint damage plus the heatscale with no penalties until shutdown.

Too bad that brawling is skewed risk vs reward wise thanks to that. I see so often Peek-a-Boo Warrior Online: Laser Alpha Edition.

[mogs01gt]

The issue will always be a result of 12v12 and a the game not focused on Lance on Lance combat. We need bigger maps, better lance drops and 8v8 on smaller maps.

Edited by mogs01gt, 03 November 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Escef, on 03 November 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Um, yeah, a "Big Papa"-style Atlas D-DC has an alpha of almost 70.

EDIT: And a Stalker with 4xASRM6 and 6xML has, in addition to some really rough heat issues (29% heat efficiency according to Smurfy with 18 double sinks), an Alpha of over 80.

But sadly neither of them could cross 100m of open ground, to seek cover, without getting blasted to hell and back on the current Battlefields of MWO.

[Escef]

Almond Brown, on 03 November 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

But sadly neither of them could cross 100m of open ground, to seek cover, without getting blasted to hell and back on the current Battlefields of MWO.

They're both more capable of it than a Dire Wolf. Both that Atlas build and the Stalker, after speed tweak, can top 60kph.

[Tsuki Ookami vas Mugunghwa]

is TTK to low? yes. and PGI is aware. see the extreme laser nerfs they tried on the previous PTS.

is it so low that it's unbearable? sh*t no! and in my opinion (which i readily defend) if you constantly find yourself in a situation where you couldn't even fight back, then you f*cked up... hard.

[Khobai]

Quote

is TTK to low? yes. and PGI is aware. see the extreme laser nerfs they tried on the previous PTS.

Except the laser nerfs dont really fix TTK. They just fix the long-range bias of the current meta.

The changes arguably make TTK worse because now lasers have to be fired closer to their optimal ranges.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Honestly I blame the fact that there are 50% more players per team than there were back in beta. This means when you manage to step out of cover and get spotted alone you are dying 50% faster. Possibly even faster than that when you consider how thinly spread an 8 man team can get compared to a 12 man one. Still its always only taken a good two man team focus firing to insta kill any mech though given they have the right loadouts for it.

[Khobai]

Quote

Honestly I blame the fact that there are 50% more players per team than there were back in beta. This means when you manage to step out of cover and get spotted alone you are dying 50% faster. Possibly even faster than that when you consider how thinly spread an 8 man team can get compared to a 12 man one. Still its always only taken a good two man team focus firing to insta kill any mech though given they have the right loadouts for it.

12v12 definitely contributes. I personally think they need to make skirmish/assault/conquest 8v8 and only the CW gamemodes should be 12v12. TTK doesnt matter as much when you have respawns. Alternatively they could keep 12v12 for assault/conquest but also add respawns, which should make those gamemodes less like skirmish, and make the primary objectives matter more. But Skirmish should be 8v8 with no respawns.

The long range laser meta is also a problem. Plus all the quirks. And the range/cooldown modules. The PTR is kindve fixing that... maybe?

And the fact lights and mediums still dont have a solid role in the game. So its mostly heavy mech peekaboo. Itll be interesting to see how the PTR changes affect role warfare.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Garandos]

Hmm id say 12v12 is a big factor, as many state, and the simple fact, that back in beta way more people where still new.

3 years experience simply (beside technical changes, hitreg fix and so on) reduce the ttk you need by a large margin.

[Moldur]

Why do people expect hero armor for when they end up, or more likely put themselves in situations where they get lit up without cover?

The TTK is fine. If you're in an awful situation, you die instantly. It does not matter what game you are in. Even if they halved the damage or doubled the armor, if you're getting lit up by half a dozen people, you will die in a couple seconds.

If tommorow, PGI actually did double the armor or halve the damage, I guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that people would still complain that the TTK is too low because they keep trying to re-enact the intro to MW4.

[Unit47]

Increase the TTK and MWO will further devolve into a dumbed down slugfest.

Right now TTK is a bit too high and most people complaining about it being to low are trying to leeroy into the whole enemy team.

[Tombstoner]

Moldur, on 03 November 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Why do people expect hero armor for when they end up, or more likely put themselves in situations where they get lit up without cover?

The TTK is fine. If you're in an awful situation, you die instantly. It does not matter what game you are in. Even if they halved the damage or doubled the armor, if you're getting lit up by half a dozen people, you will die in a couple seconds.

If tommorow, PGI actually did double the armor or halve the damage, I guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that people would still complain that the TTK is too low because they keep trying to re-enact the intro to MW4.

what your not getting is TTK is artificially low because of the way PGI ported BT. PGI didn't correct for size/ speed interactions on durability. PGI didn't correct for removing a 2d6 hit location system in-favor of placed shots.
both necessitate armor co-factors in order to preserve the cost functions every mech in this game was designed around. This is why speed is so incredibly important and mechs like the awesome are nerfed due to art effects on a 3d model/ hit boxes.

Finish the port and see where TTK ends up being. As it is assaults are not worth the tonnage. you take heavies. why 7 tons of armor moving at 80+kps is more durable then 10 tons moving at 45 kph. it also explains why mediums have issues and some lights are problematic.

Unit47, on 03 November 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Increase the TTK and MWO will further devolve into a dumbed down slugfest.

Right now TTK is a bit too high and most people complaining about it being to low are trying to leeroy into the whole enemy team.

I feel a thinking mans shooter should be about working the angles to get rear armor shots. Assalts should have the armor needed to soak the dps from a couple heavies.. not for 5 minutes. but an atlas should be able to last more then 8-12 seconds. before the ct is cored.

Edited by Tombstoner, 03 November 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Escef, on 03 November 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Um, yeah, a "Big Papa"-style Atlas D-DC has an alpha of almost 70.

EDIT: And a Stalker with 4xASRM6 and 6xML has, in addition to some really rough heat issues (29% heat efficiency according to Smurfy with 18 double sinks), an Alpha of over 80.

Keep in mind though that those builds had an effective range of about 270m and spread damage like crazy. Clam lazers hit from 700m+and all in the same spot

[Escef]

Troutmonkey, on 03 November 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Keep in mind though that those builds had an effective range of about 270m and spread damage like crazy. Clam lazers hit from 700m+and all in the same spot

Keep in mind I was responding to the idea that back in beta alphas capped at 40. Yes, those sandblaster-like builds aren't as optimal as more pinpoint based builds, but when you're rocking an AC20 and 3xASRM6 at near point blank most of that damage is going the same place anyway. Even now they can still shred face if piloted well, but with bigger maps and longer range weapons dominating the game (even before clans the meta revolved around AC5s, Gauss, PPCs, and Large Lasers) it has become more difficult to get those results.

[Kjudoon]

Broken record time because the solution hasn't changed:

End

Perfect

Convergence

[mogs01gt]

Moldur, on 03 November 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Why do people expect hero armor for when they end up, or more likely put themselves in situations where they get lit up without cover?The TTK is fine. If you're in an awful situation, you die instantly. It does not matter what game you are in. Even if they halved the damage or doubled the armor, if you're getting lit up by half a dozen people, you will die in a couple seconds.
If tommorow, PGI actually did double the armor or halve the damage, I guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that people would still complain that the TTK is too low because they keep trying to re-enact the intro to MW4.

How is TTK fine when its a death wish to run an XL in any IS mech? All it takes is a few 40-50 point alphas and you are done! Most clan mechs, and some IS mechs, have that high alphas on a quick recycle. All you have to do is poke out a few inches too far and you're dead. All it takes is two or three mechs to focus fire.

The current META directly reflects this issue.

[TWIAFU]

I patiently await an increase of TTK.

And the following nerf TTK posts.

[Roadbuster]

Part of the problem is the trend of high alphas and perfect pinpoint.
It makes a big difference getting hit by 4 LPL at once or one after another.

Slightly reduce damage of all weapons
Reduce heat threshold.
Increase heat dissipation of DHS.
Increase heat capacity for SHS.
Reduce the insane 20-25% quirks.
Reduce (not increase) laser range.

That's what I'd like to try.

[Variant1]

how bout we remove all quirks except structure quirks? i mean the current quirks make boating much easier and goes against ghost heat. There used to be 5 large laser stalkers now there is 6 large laser stalkers. Removing quirks would definently increase TTK IMO.

[Clit Beastwood]

The core issue with TTK is that captain rambo likes to poke his head up and eat an alpha from every member of the enemy team - when people say into voip "don't poke" that's what they're trying to discourage you guys from doing. When the lawnmower comes, don't be the tallest blade of grass.

Edited by Fierostetz, 04 November 2015 - 08:55 AM.