173 replies to this topic

[Luscious Dan]

Splatshot, on 04 November 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Ok,

Still having a Double do less then a Single, makes no sense as why would the double actually exist then.

Dude, you're not getting it.

Doubles still cool the mech faster than singles.

However! IS heat sinks increase the heat cap more than Clan heat sinks (so it takes more heat to force a shut down). Clan mechs will have a slightly higher cooling rate. So the IS mechs will take longer to overheat, but don't cool down as fast. It's all about making them different, not necessarily better.

One big balancing factor that is being left out of the game is use of water to enhance cooling rates of heat sinks. More maps need useful water areas (or deep snow) so you can cool off if you have heat sinks in your legs. This would make IS singles worth considering more often.

[Splatshot]

Maybe if they actually did double heat reduction, and not 1.3 or whatever the number is these days.

All I am saying is they shouldn't be called double anymore.

Call them all heat sinks, and move on, while we are at it, we should just make every weapon the same, that way everything would be even. and then we can finally blame skill.

Just have the IS and Clans use one type of laser...that is were this even balance will end up.

[xWiredx]

I think if the skill values are going to get nerfed they should add another master unlock that doubles the boosts on top of multiplier for unlocking the entire elite tier or give us multiple levels for each of the skills. You know, something to use this exorbitant amount of idle XP I have on some of these mechs (seriously, I have hundreds of thousands of XP sitting on some mechs...)

[Navid A1]

This is SO WRONG in so many unholy levels.

Lets say i'm in a direwolf and want to shoot a target 400 meters in front of me with a couple of lasers... tell me how am i supposed to do any damage to it when i have 236m sensor range (yes... thats not a joke) and my lasers don't do sh*t unless i have the enemy targeted.

236m sensor range?

Spoiler

And how about the stalker?
it has 450m sensor range.It renders equipping Large or ER large lasers completely pointless. Because with no targeting, there is no damage.
Take a look at this image... if it looks OK to you... you need help!

Spoiler

[PraetorGix]

Sereglach, on 03 November 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

EDIT: Oh and THANK GOD the mech skills got the hard nerf they needed! Mechs should not need to be elited just to be playable. These changes to the skills should go a long way to helping with TTK and TTL in MWO as a whole. However, I do think that Speed Tweak needs to GO. Speed Tweak is worth on average 3-4 engine sizes on mechs, which can mean literal millions of c-bills worth of free speed (in comparison to buying that engine) . . . and it completely exacerbates problems from systems like speed caps and MASC.

That edit came after the hard drugs you're on made effect right?

[Luscious Dan]

The sensor range values make no sense to me either.

"Role Warfare" is one thing, making assaults blind and entirely dependent on teammates if they want to use lasers is silly.

Having radar signature based on the size of the mech makes sense. Giving scout mechs a little more sensor range makes sense. Having some mechs (like Ravens) with well over 1km range while others have 200-400m sensor range is crazy. They need to stop throwing around massive quirks, and just worry about the underlying mechanics of the game (more comprehensive system to combat boating a particular weapon... ghost heat is an oversimplification, as I keep saying).

[ARM32]

ok. 444m - clan er large laser. 360 - clan large pulse laser. Nice idea. Keep this way and we all start fight only on MG-s... I'm just don't understand - what for and why u try to do this. mech got rangefinder (near croshair) rangefinder + small PC + laser = correct distance to lasers... Or clans in 3000+ years forgot how to take info from rangefinder and give it to laser and focuse it?

[1453 R]

Hydrocarbon, on 04 November 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Honestly with this nerf they should disable the charge mechanism. I was discussing it with ppl last night and it doesn't make sense for Gauss to explode when it's NOT charging. The idea is it holds giant capacitors, and giant caps are basically inert unless they're charged.

If they keep in weapon explosion, they need to remove the charge time since it's simulating an always-charged bank of caps. If they leave in charge time, then a weapon explosion should ONLY happen when it's crit'd WHILE charging/charged.

While that makes sense from a physics perspective, the Gauss charge cycle makes the weapon unique. previously it wasn't really any different than a weird, high-velocity autocannon. It acted identically to every other non-MG ballistic weapon in MWO. The charge cycle behavior gives it some character, makes it feel like a different weapon, and at least in my experience/opinion makes it more accurate and gives it a better weight and feel. If you want a click-boom thundergun the AC/20 is a thing, and despite a string of velocity nerfs it does its job well. The chargecycle Gauss, though?

An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

[Thomas G Wolf]

With these changes to the skill trees why not just take them out completly as they would be totally useless with those nerfs. This is the first change that I am totally against because it is just too harsh, what is the point of eliting Mechs now if there is no real difference between a mastered Mech and a stock Mech, this will make me lose interest in buying and mastering Mechs real quick as it is a total waste of my game time to master something for so little return.

[Sereglach]

Cmdr Hurrell, on 04 November 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

That edit came after the hard drugs you're on made effect right?

Not even remotely. Cute little jab, but the reality of the situation is that the current skill trees are mandatory to make a mech competitive in the current scheme of things. This is terrible for multiple reasons:

1. For the new player experience, it is already bad enough that they have a hard learning curve ahead of them. Now, tack on the fact that their mech is performing up to 45-50% weaker in some areas (like acceleration and deceleration) and it's absolutely absurd. Mastery of mechs should feel like small quirks or a minor combat edge, not a completely different mech.

2. Carrying off the completely different mech aspect, the mastery skills should not make such a vast difference in a mech's performance to make it a completely different machine. That's another reason why I strongly advocate against Speed Tweak, the speed difference that 10% boost makes is like having a 3-4 sizes larger engine in there (which could cost millions of c-bills in the case of a large XL) . . . that's just wrong. The current skills are really not much different from some of the super quirks some mechs currently have, it's just that any mech that is actually mastered already has these boosts.

3. As it currently stands even veteran players state that a new mech needs to be mastered to be competitive, otherwise the grind is a terrible gimp. Again, that shouldn't be the case. A new mech that's well geared should be respectably competitive, not at a handicap until the grind is completed.

Edited by Sereglach, 04 November 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Clan Lasers do not need buffs
IS Lasers do not need buffs

Machine Guns need buffs
Flamers need buffs

SRM, LRM and AC2 buffs seem good
Gauss nerf was needed

Edited by Troutmonkey, 04 November 2015 - 03:43 PM.

[Drimerd]

Not speak english and not write correctly. Think that 2-2.5% abilities is not serious. Why would anyone want to open abilities, which give such a small gain? If abilities do not give freedom to mech, iron balance makes each mech to perform its role only. Any mech initiative is not in the class will be absolutely useless. Maybe 3-4% and x2 or 5-6% and x2 with a choice of few skills. Сoast 5.000 (8) - 15.000 (4) - 45.000 (2). Learning all, but the choice of half of them. And maybe have presets that can be changed in a battle at a certain time or on its own base.

Maybe developers prepared various rare slots things in the future, which will give a 1-3% additionally for different mech parameters (or some things set for/in one slot). And maybe rare +1 weapons (breaking with time) or +1 ammo.

Edited by Drimerd, 04 November 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[SourKraut]

OK so now having played a few game I can give actual feedback. First, even though the notes say speed tweak will not be changed it has been cut in half anyhow (maybe not for everyone but for me at least). The skill tree changes in general do not feel good at all in terms of mobility and agility for everything other than a light mech. All mechs other than lights feel about as bad as they do before being basiced in the current (actual) game. I even tried to see how a hvy would feel with a maxed out engine (dragon with a 360) and it still handled like a brick. As for the heat differences with the changes to the skill tree, its much harder to say with all the other changes how much of an impact that made...but as far as agility and maneuverability goes the game feels terrible if you aren't in a light mech (I feel sorry for assaults if they get harassed by a light with the game in this state, yuck). I did try out an (IS) gaus rifle as well tonight and without any gaus specific quirks it takes forever to fire a second shot (I can fire a LL 3 times before a second shot from gaus charges).

[Dakkss]

Davers, on 04 November 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

1. Wouldn't recoil only affect ACs? Lasers and gauss wouldn't have recoil, not sure if launching missiles would have much either.

2. So, basically remove all the energy only mechs out of the game?

3. More RNG makes the game better?

1. Recoil would only affect ballistics, yes. As a tradeoff if you hit an enemy with a ballistic you throw their torso about making it hard to aim - then ballistics have their own niche.
Ballistics = throw off aim of enemy mech, pinpoint damage but quite heavy and recoils mech firing.
Missiles = SRMS do high but spread damage, LRMs have the niche of being non-LOS weapon
Energy = Unlimited ammo and usually stackable, but high heat

2. Obviously Energy-only mechs like the Nova should get some quirks to help them along. But as it stands most energy-only builds are ridiculously OP at the time being so I don't know why them becoming niche is such a travesty to you.

3. It's not about RNG. It's about balancing the game and it's issues. Stackpoling has also been around since MW4 (surprise, no deathballing in MW4, it was mostly duels) and has been in established universe novels. Ammo explosions are RNG. Critical hits are RNG. If you're so against RNG then you must be eager to take out these staples of Battletech as well. Besides, it's not like I said Stackpoles should instantly kill anyone nearby. They're very mild numbers.

Edited by Dak Darklighter, 04 November 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

Throw out this lock on requirement for laser ranges; it makes no sense. Blind sensor range for assaults is another BAD idea. The larger mech being easier to target at range makes sense, but not blindness. Assault mech sensors would logically be better (more weight/space).

I am disappointed that these ideas were actually allowed out of the conference room. They make NO logical sense. It is like they want mechs based on magical unicorn hallucinations instead of based LOOSELY on "practical" physics and engineering.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

From my PTS matches so far, I like the direction this Rebalance is going. Good changes IMHO.

[bot141]

liking it so far. Seems to be a lot more brawls with 4v4.

[DivineEvil]

Loving this PTS session more than the live environment. I probably should give my feedback to the appropriate sub-forum, but I think I'll wait until the session is over for that.

- Target profile makes sense so far. I'm not sure if the acquisition delay really is as good as it should be, and lack of display of the actual values made it impossible to analyze by comparison, unfortunately.

- Skill Tree values seems to be more interesting and allows to better feel the differences between weight classes. It's a good temporary base, but still, the actual multi-branch trees with partial fill limits is highly suggested. Perhaps, just perhaps, PGI should consider to have multiple-point skills, that could be progressively upgraded with small values (like Weapon Modules) to the certain maximum value, which would give a total value of the rough average between current live and PTS value multipliers.

- Changes to laser mechanics has good effects, but are just as convoluted as the Heat Scale. I'm not feeling good with those. I can understand how it gives the value to information warfare, but at the same time wonder if a change to heat capacity alone is not enough to tone laser family down. Too complex, if good, solution to an apparently simple problem.

- Both LRM and SRM changes are positive. Both weapons are easier to use effectively, and LRMs seems to be in a more balanced shape, although it would require several 12v12 matches to be certain about that.

- Totally OK with Gauss cooldown changes. Clan Gauss probably might need some increase to charge-up time in order to compenstae for the fact, that there's no trade-off for the smaller mass/size of that weapon.

- Structure/Armor quirks do make some IS mechs look more in line with Clans. Perhaps, like I've said before multiple times, PGI should consider buffing IS internal structure across the board and use that as the baseline for any additional buffs if they even would be required. Also, percentage values would make more sense, than same flat values applied everywhere.

[Stealth Fox]

SO basically you made eliting anything worthless..

Great, thanks for that.. no really..thanks.. all that effort to grind through your **** fest of a broken game and I don't even get a better mech out of it.

Thanks PGI, oh..when are you gonna stop balancing by weight and start going by Battle Value? with no longer instant convergence? with proper heat scaling? .. Never? .. gonna ignore this?

Great..

[kka]

I also think laser damage dropping without targeting is bad.

Because? Because it is not intuitive. Players, especially new ones, want things to be intuitive.

My suggestion to fix lasers is to raise the heat. PROPERLY raise the heat. Duration also.

That makes them feel like lasers, intuitively.