173 replies to this topic

[Eon0574]

I really don't get the whole re-balance thing anyway.

If they want everything the same then get rid of all quirks/buffs to all mechs. Change all weapon systems to IS base (leave the colors to show the difference between Clan and IS just for flavor).

It would be a whole lot simpler than what you are doing right now.

Why not get rid of Clans all together? Since the game is ditching lore anyway it makes little sense to keep the Clan mechs in the system at all. I'll take a refund (no problem).

I just want to play the game without all this stupid bull***t "balancing". It's bad enough that I have to check every time I play to see which mech of mine got screwed over today. Which do I have to rebuild, again, due to all the changes to make it competetive? Is it even possible to make it competitive anymore? Several mechs are pretty worthless now. Most you can't even play in the configuration that they had when they were delivered.

IS balanced the field with the creation of new technologies after facing off against the Clans. There is plenty of tech that could be introduced as an attempt for IS to find a "balance" to clan tech. Hell, the resistance mechs could have been a good way to introduce such technology.

At the rate your going you might as well change everything to one class and size. Heaven forbid that someone cries because their light got killed in one shot from an Assault mech.

If you have something against the laser vomit mechs then they should not have created them in the first place.

How about you put some programming in place that will deter one team from working together when it notices the other team is not, so no one cries about losing because the other team concentrated fire and their team ran off in all directions?

or if your team has no LRM's then the other team's LRM's become useless?

or if your team has no Assaults then the other teams Assaults automatically get armor and firepower reductions to compensate?

or upon entering a match, weapon systems are rendered useless if you are too powerful. You are only allowed to do as much damage as the weakest mech on the battlefield.

Here are some "balancing" suggestions. I hope you can make it happen.

If not I'll just take my toys and go home, so there.

[Mild Monkey]

Played 10-12 matches on PTS and I have to say, it feels good. The changes seem spot-on. Mechs survive longer and i had a very hard time taking out Atlai (is that the official plural). The feel dangerous once again. Ok, the lasers do less damage, especially if you are a blind assault mech, but they do damage nonetheless. And with a good scout it is a very satisfying to light them up. Speaking of which: The ACH is still dangerous but no longer game decisive, the ecm changes don't feel severe because the sensor range has been scaled. Glorious return of the Commando. this mech is viable again.
LRMs: Hard to say in a 4 vs. 4 environment, locks are MUCH harder to get, so no Lurmaggedon. 0I think PGI should think of another way to "guide" LRM volleys. Maybe they should not just go where you aim but follow the torso reticule with a greater spread so we have a chance to hit things within LoS.
SRMs: Feel great now, able to hit scouts but they satill have a chance to evade and more armor to take damage. Spot-on, 10/10.
For all you guys crying about the laser nerfs. It really isn't that bad. It works when you work together. It even works when you are on your own.
PGI, the new hit indicator sucks, though. The St. Andrew's cross is hardly visible and needs a color highlight of sorts. Maybe add a secondary indicator for laser hits without a lock (reduced damage hits).

[Dawnstealer]

Wait - you can still SHOOT the lasers at a target you can see but not physically target, right? Just because I can't lock a target doesn't mean my lasers suddenly lose their range, right?

Not sure I totally understand this.

[Anunknownlurker]

@Dawnstealer - exactly, you can shoot lasers at anyone you can see, it's simply that lasers will do reduced damage at above optimal range IF you are not locked on.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about....

[Dawnstealer]

Jimmy DiGriz, on 05 November 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

@Dawnstealer - exactly, you can shoot lasers at anyone you can see, it's simply that lasers will do reduced damage at above optimal range IF you are not locked on.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about....

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that, especially with them rolling back the Jesusbox a bit. Scouts would actually be useful outside the super-brawler Cheetahs and Firestarters...

Edited by Dawnstealer, 05 November 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[WarHippy]

Luscious Dan, on 04 November 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

The sensor range values make no sense to me either.

"Role Warfare" is one thing, making assaults blind and entirely dependent on teammates if they want to use lasers is silly.

Having radar signature based on the size of the mech makes sense. Giving scout mechs a little more sensor range makes sense. Having some mechs (like Ravens) with well over 1km range while others have 200-400m sensor range is crazy. They need to stop throwing around massive quirks, and just worry about the underlying mechanics of the game (more comprehensive system to combat boating a particular weapon... ghost heat is an oversimplification, as I keep saying).

I keep saying they are going about this the wrong way. Instead of messing with each mechs sensor ranges and creating bizarre targeting ranges that make some mechs near useless they need to do this in the form of detection range while retaining more or less uniform sensor range.

Example all mechs have 1000m sensor range.
Light mechs are detectable at 375m
Medium mechs detectable at 450m
Heavy mechs detectable at 600m
Assault mechs detectable at 750m

Then you can add quirks that manipulate specific detection ranges. Doing something like this still allows lights to have their scouting role without turning an assault vs assault fight into paper cut warrior online when trying to fight outside of 300m.

[WarHippy]

Jimmy DiGriz, on 05 November 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

@Dawnstealer - exactly, you can shoot lasers at anyone you can see, it's simply that lasers will do reduced damage at above optimal range IF you are not locked on.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about....

The problem is the reduction of optimal range when not locked on. There are plenty of instances you might be firing at someone you are not currently locked on, and with these funky sensor ranges you might not even be able to lock on at all causing you to lose damage on a target that would normally be in your true optimal range.

[Mild Monkey]

Dawnstealer, on 05 November 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Wait - you can still SHOOT the lasers at a target you can see but not physically target, right? Just because I can't lock a target doesn't mean my lasers suddenly lose their range, right?

Not sure I totally understand this.

Dawnstealer, on 05 November 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Wait - you can still SHOOT the lasers at a target you can see but not physically target, right? Just because I can't lock a target doesn't mean my lasers suddenly lose their range, right?

Not sure I totally understand this.

You got this exactly right. If you haven't or can't lock on a certain mech, laser damage will begin to decrease at 60% of this weapon's LONG RANGE. It will continue to decrease until it hits the limit of this weapon's MAX RANGE. With a locked target, the damage will decrease at 100% LONG range until it hits the wall of the laser's MAXIMUM range. So, if you do not lock at a target close to MAX RANGE, the weapon will do almost no damage, just as it has been until now. BUT this does not mean that you do not iflict damage to an enemy you cannot or have not targeted. You will. PERIOD.
The misconception that lasers do not do any damage when there is no target lock stems from an absent hit indicator when you hit a target that hasn't been locked. PGI will have to work on that.
(Played PTS a lot today, this system is so much better for all types of mechs)

[Josef Koba]

Every change is going to simultaneously be hailed as the greatest thing ever, because it conforms to their biases and confirms their vision of "how things ought to be," and be reviled by those who disagree. There have been so many changes, most of which start off as HUGE changes only to be tweaked later, during my nearly three years of playing this game that the community is in an almost constant state of upheaval. Changes were made to combat specific issues that enough people complained loudly enough about, and then when the state of the game evolved later, these changes were rarely, if ever, rolled back. A dispassionate observer might conclude that the only changes that are ever made are those which are screamed about loudly or often enough. Generally the whining is done because, again, it contradicts how they think "the game ought to be." I.e. I don't like LRMs because they're a no-skill weapon; nerf now. I don't like poptarting because it's not fair (frown face) and I can't develop a tactic to counter it; nerf now. Such and such is too powerful because it kills me, and I don't use such and such; nerf now. I like such and such, but I can't get it to work or to kill anyone; nerf then now, buff me now. Same thing every week. Clan lasers too powerful, IS lasers not powerful; nerf the former, buff the latter. Mech A is too maneuverable; nerf now. My mech isn't, and it's so fragile; buff now. Clan Engines are OP; nerf now. Insert the topic of the week. It's tiring. We might as well just have every weapon system and its equal on the other side do basically the same damage and with the same range. Only then will "true balance" be achieved. Anything less and we're still going to have these same types of discussions. Week in, week out, ad infinitum.

I've thrived quite well in this game, by and large. I have avoided, for the most part, complaining about much of anything. I've never had a problem adapting to face AC/40 Jagers, and UAC/20,000 Dire Wolves, whatever. I have always thought that there were risks vs rewards in this game. Rock paper scissors type thing. Have there been issues, objectively speaking? Yes, sure. But rarely do we see objective discussion about them overall, and even more rarely do we see measured, incremental tweaks. It's either the nerf bat or the the buff gods. For me, though, it's really getting to the point where I don't want to have to relearn how to play the game and its mechanics every other week. Now, lasers do damage out to a point but only if you're targeting the mech and it's a full moon, otherwise they'll do some amount less. And if I lock a target, it'll show me what the optimal range is, but if not I'll have a different optimal range and stuff because of reasons.

The skill tree, we see half the community think the nerfs are the greatest thing the game has ever seen, whereas the other half disagrees. I'm in the latter camp. Such bonuses to spending a lot of time in a chassis's cockpit, simulating to me more experience in a chassis (in a role playing sort of way) might as well be dispensed with altogether. At least that seems to be what some people want. It's like Harrison Bergeron in here, sometimes.

And I actually rescind my above statement on "true balance." Really the only way you're going to have "true balance ™" is to dramatically limit customization and essentially force everyone to run stock mechs, because if you can customize, someone, somewhere is going to figure out how to get a competitive advantage. Then everyone will use it. Then we'll gripe about the "meta" and implore PGI to "do something" about it. If you make all Atlas D-DCs the same, well, that eliminates that...

Maybe someday the game will be in a place that's good enough for some of us. I just hate to see what is going to happen with the Steam release when PGI is still trying to fix FUNDAMENTAL MECHANICS to the game. I guess I think we're just in a perpetual beta...

[north ranger]

What a headache MWO is for new players, old players and probably devs. I still feel like I'm back in beta too with PGI still messing with the basics of MWO (weapon balance, heat management, sensors, match-making, skill trees, etc). I am not a fan of this HUGE skill tree shut down. It's not like we had a choice in our skills before and now there isn't much of a point to bother.

[Frozen Spirit Jac]

Not sure if it is just me, but lately MWO appears less like the Battletech or Mechwarrior games of old, where playing for strategy and planning and it is suited for more majority choice rush kill, alphastrike, Hawken players. Rarely see Mordor (Terra Firma), Every time in an Assault majority of time get conquest. Nascar is so popular, I feel like a truck in a race for sports cars. Really getting boring quick.

[north ranger]

Personally, I'd make clan weapons do the same amount of damage as IS, but retain their range/fitting advantages and duration/multi-shot disadvantages. Sure that nerf would suck for clans.. but it would keep each faction unique and game play would be way easier to balance imho.

Otherwise, could we just hire Jordan Weisman as a consultant? Get him on video as to what changes he would advise to our game and vote on it as a community? Just my two cents.

[Gumon Choji]

Wow that is a huge change log.
The Great
AC2 heat and like a super MG. I always thought of them like this and the critical/heat change is exactly what they needed.
New heat sink bonus for STD
I hope I read this but making some mechs take longer to get locked on to not changing detection range. AMAZING. I really hope you did this and not the other. This makes stealth a bonus not a penalty. Fun idea not lame.
IS large pulse. Great. My bread and butter gun so I like this.
SRM/ Streak. Great spread but what about ams?

The mixed
The mech exp. The change on heat and stop and go will be the most drastic change in game play ever.
LRM spread. Great for the game. Not more those I drop with. Perhaps the speed could get the missile hail under control. Also AMS may work better now.
Medium pulse laser.....I have only a few mechs with more then 6 so I am unaffected but the range buff is good.

The Bad
Worked so hard to basic and get very little. This really changes how mechs play. Dramatically. I put this twice as it is good it deals with pop tarting play but the lumbering gets a little out of hand. and I cannot shoot stuff as well with arm guns.

The idea.
Ever thought or removing/lowering the heat penalty for a rate of fire penalty. Or a mod that removes ghost heat for a reload penalty. really lower DPS in exchange like double time per gun over the limit. but let players choose to equip it. Thus it would stink for brawling but no one is forced to use it. Thus it would be a fun alternative and the laser boat mechs would be terrified of close range fights like a light.

[sycocys]

People are to used to what it's been for years and it wasn't really explained well - but Russ's statement about it explains their vision of what it is doing better. Paul didn't do a great job of explaining it, but their concept is starting to come together bit by bit.

Its not reducing damage.
The mechanic is reducing the base range, and giving you more range on a targeted mech.
Basically just a function to reduce the long range hitscan vomit unless you work as a team, then its mostly unchanged.

New min range at 60% blanket probably should have been tweaked some for the individual laser sizes for this pass, but maybe they just wanted to get more of the functions and weapon changes injected before focusing on tweaking this out.

I don't mind it so much myself, just requires more planning in approaching combat. Might take a bit to really adapt to but won't take long and most players will have their styles adjusted and be using to really create some chaos.
---
And yes, I do feel like I'm going crazy actually being able to translate something that Russ stated.

[Tom Sawyer]

That is just crazy talk sycocys

Seriously time will tell. I must hope that the devs will save this game.

[Sevronis]

I honestly don't think changing the values on the current mech skill trees was needed. Would rather see a different tree per chassis that reflects different roles that mech specializes in and you can customize it rather than each mech in that chassis being able to unlock everything....kinda like skill trees from some of the MMOs out there for each class. Maybe you would pick which role to start in, then you cant spend any xp on other roles until you finish one, up to a max of like 2 roles out of 4 for example.

[sycocys]

Sevronis, on 05 November 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

I honestly don't think changing the values on the current mech skill trees was needed. Would rather see a different tree per chassis that reflects different roles that mech specializes in and you can customize it rather than each mech in that chassis being able to unlock everything....kinda like skill trees from some of the MMOs out there for each class. Maybe you would pick which role to start in, then you cant spend any xp on other roles until you finish one, up to a max of like 2 roles out of 4 for example.

Just curious if you tested it out or not - because the skill tree reductions actually make it feel like a MW game.

[SilentScreamer]

sycocys, on 05 November 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Just curious if you tested it out or not - because the skill tree reductions actually make it feel like a MW game.

As a light/medium pilot for the majority of drops I have a mixed feelings about the skill tree adjusts in PTS3.

Generally its good. My spider/commando/firestarter are still fairly nimble, but no longer spin like the Doom Space Marine circa 1990s. Haven't had live opponents yet, only Testing Grounds/Academy. I suspect arm mounted weapons will become much more popular in order to hit fast moving targets.

**edit add multiquote**

Eon Rha Saeri, on 05 November 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

I really don't get the whole re-balance thing anyway.

If they want everything the same then get rid of all quirks/buffs to all mechs. Change all weapon systems to IS base (leave the colors to show the difference between Clan and IS just for flavor).

It would be a whole lot simpler than what you are doing right now.

I wouldn't go to that extreme, but I would prefer a solution to the rebalance that made things simpler rather than increasing the magnatude of the quirk system.

The Pilot Skill changes are a good step to making MWO more friendly to new pilots. Basics and Elites Pilots skills are currently a MUST for performance, which hurts the new pilot. While my Commando loves Fresh DakkaWhale meat, it really is unfair how badly those things handle. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how bad dropping trom 40% twist boost to only 10% is for my gameplay though.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 05 November 2015 - 06:33 PM.

[Tarzilman]

Changes to the skill tree look good.
Now we need more skills in the skill tree!
Get rid of the quick ignition, too!
Maybe add some weapon specific skills or some offense/defense skills.

[Spiketheaardvark]

After playing a few matches, I think it's important to look at all of the changes together. As a whole they start to make sense. They tend to push the fighting a little closer together. With the targeting effecting energy and LRMS it gives more space for the lighter balistics to find a role at longer ranges. Thank goodness for that guass nerf. Press R is indeed the new meta. The targeting nerf make running LRMS much harder; I can see why they got a spread buff. Tag and narc in this system become a big deal. I'm kinda of glad that they trimmed the skill tree. It's slowed thing back down a little. I honestly think that with a little more work they might be able to kill off some of the more contrived mechanics like ghost heat.

That said the heat sink changes don't make a lot of sense to me. They keep pushing SHS and DHS closer and closer together. At this rate they'll just make them the same (the game was fun before DHS). I think the missing stat that never gets looked at is the heat capacity. Give SHS a poor dispation rate but a higher capcity. That way DHS may increase dps but you'll have a more limited number of weapons you can alpha before over heating. It will give SHS something they're better at than just size. With the engine heat sinks it didn't matter you will never enough SHS to get anywhere near what you did with DHS even with the wimpy 1.4 rating. I think this is the solution to ghost heat. That way that 6 ppc stalker can't alpha with DHS, but can with SHS then has to go hide for 3 min to cool off.

When they say it's a complete overhaul to the combat mechanics they're not kidding the game plays much more differently. It's not point lasers to kill anymore.