344 replies to this topic

[Azzras]

I am in hopes that they can keep the balance while letting us customize our mechs however we like (within reason).

[Strum Wealh]

Terror Teddy, on 11 July 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

Trust the devs is what I'd say.

Even if you get Omnimechs that can mount virtually ANY weapon on the hull the mounts would still take up space/heat/structure.

WARNING - IM JUST BRAINSTORMNING
Say that you would get 'Mounting Points' for Omnimechs to represent that they could mount virtually anything on a specific mount.

1.The mount must be able to take the weight
2.The mount must be configured to handle heat/ammunition/etc

One way to 'balance' (how i hate that word...) the Omni's apart from more C-Bill expenses and other things could be how they function in the mech lab.

Sure, you can take a stock MadCat for example that USUALLY have 2 LRM launchers on its shoulders and replace them with something else because it IS an omnimech.

But I bet even the clans have their 'stock' models and their 'standard' mountings for them - thats why the MadCat is so very iconic - it was a standard Omnimech with stock model mounts with LRM's and large lasers

Any 'nonstandard' mounting could have other drawbacks.

Nonstandard shoulder mounts take up 1 point extra internal space (but not weight).
So replacing a missile launcher that weights 10 tons to an AC10 that weights 10 tonnes might take up more internal space but not weight since you CAN mount anything but other extra things had to be added (Ammo connections to Torso and Arms).

After all, when you buy a mech you get it with weapons and they have a standard configuration.

If you have a madcat with twin shoulder PPC's then that would be the standard model and mounting missile launchers would take up a little more internal space (but not weight).

Still, the game should be as close to the original game and give players as complete freedom as their minds can create without being whacky.

Besides, who doesn't love a 4X ERPPC mech...

Actually, OmniMechs (both IS and Clan) are not (canonically) nearly as modular as some seem to think they are.

"OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech." (from Sarna, see here)

The above limitations are described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual.

The short version is that (canonically):

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location.distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied.
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their flexible weapons loads.
They're part of what keeps, for example, a Night Gyr and a Mad Cat unique from each other; otherwise, both of them are "merely" 75-ton gunbags with different skins.

So, having a set number of hardpoints in any given body location, as well as the canon descriptions described above, does make as much sense OmniMechs as for normal BattleMechs (that is to say, a lot).
Though, OmniMechs should (IMO) be characterized by having hardpoints that can accept any weapon type (as opposed to normal BattleMechs, where the hardpoints can accept only one weapon type), as well as any other equipment that could be mounted as pods (including additional Heat Sinks and/or Jump Jets, E-War/Info-War gear, etc).

However, OmniMechs (canonically) are not (and, IMO, should not be implemented in MWO as) the proverbial "bags of guns and components" that some seem to believe (or desire) them to be.

Your thoughts?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Skadi, on 09 July 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

oh god not sure if serious, customization is good, but build your own mech from the ground up...

Dear god no.

That...Is...Awesome lol. It is the... UberAtlascat!

[Terror Teddy]

Strum Wealh, on 11 July 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

However, OmniMechs (canonically) are not (and, IMO, should not be implemented in MWO as) the proverbial "bags of guns and components" that some seem to believe (or desire) them to be.

Your thoughts?

Thank you for that summary.

If they DO follow that line of thought then clan mechs will not be overpowered, just a bit more flexible in the firepower department - until the rest of us gain access to their guns.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Just had a wild idea. How about limiting customizations to the secondary armaments?

My beef with custom rides in previous games is that I couldn't recognize, say, a Catapult by what it's shooting at me. Oh sure, it looks like a Catapult, but when it has nothing in the missile slots and utilizes all of the torso slots for other weapons, It ends up not feeling like a Catapult at all, and breaks the hell out of immersion.

However, if the LRM racks on the catapult were non-changeable, it'd feel like a lot more like a catapult no matter what was in the secondary slots.

I think that this would make the variants more useful as well.

[CmdrSpider]

Skadi, on 09 July 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

oh god not sure if serious, customization is good, but build your own mech from the ground up...

Dear god no.

Absolutely the funniest thing I've seen on the forums.

[Steelra]

I don't have a problem with the customization.

Mostly because I plan on narc beacon/tag with a maxed engine jenner, but yeah. Keep the customization.

[Viper69]

How long do you guys think it will take till you have the flavor of the month builds? Someone will come up with a kickass build, that he in turn tells his buddies about who then in turn have to tell every person they run into what they now have on their mech. Then soon everyone with said mech has said mech build and it wont really matter what "boats" or whatever. It will all come down to flavor of the month builds and clones anyway, so stop worrying about unlimited customization, because it will not happen.

[Rychard Starheart]

[Spheroid]

Mech customization needs to be expensive not limited. Easy field-kit modifications should be cheap but I want factory level swap outs to be very expensive. Much more so then buying a mech that would in a stock configuration be similar to what you are attempting to create.

Battletech rules are not helpful in this regard because the only guidelines are parts +10% when calculating customization costs.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Spheroid, on 11 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Mech customization needs to be expensive not limited. Easy field-kit modifications should be cheap but I want factory level swap outs to be very expensive. Much more so then buying a mech that would in a stock configuration be similar to what you are attempting to create.

Agreed!

Spheroid, on 11 July 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Battletech rules are not helpful in this regard because the only guidelines are parts +10% when calculating customization costs.

My good sir, may I direct you to Pg 188 of Strategic Operations. This casts light on the difficulties of refitting one VARIANT of 'Mech into another, right down to the per-component difficulties. It also tells us which operations can be performed where.

On Pg 189, we see that customization relates to refit kits in the sense that customs are extra difficult to pull off, and take twice as long as refits(which can take quite awhile as it is). Working everything out, we find that building custom variants in the field with the sort of 'Mech techs one would find in common service is difficult if not impossible.

[Spheroid]

^ Yes but none of those additional difficulties(chance of success or time) can be directly converted to a C-bill cost.

Maybe if labor costs were known you could somehow come up will a billable hours calculation. I don't think the Mercenaries Handbook is a supported rules set any more so Strategic Ops is all we have to go with. Are there mech building rules in in Solaris?

Edited by Spheroid, 11 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Thalas]

I say the exact opposite, customization NEEDS to be unlimited, the more variety, the less bland each session is going to be.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Spheroid, on 11 July 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

^ Yes but none of those additional difficulties(chance of success or time) can be directly converted to a C-bill cost.

Maybe if labor costs were known you could somehow come up will a billable hours calculation. I don't think the Mercenaries Handbook is a supported rules set any more so Strategic Ops is all we have to go with. Are there mech building rules in in Solaris?

The Merc handbook is still the most current source and still used for mech tech costs.

The real expense that we don't have specific figures for is how much it costs to rent out a factory bay for an amount of time. I can't imagine it's cheap to hold up a factory for half a year.

[syngyne]

Bill Andrex, on 11 July 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

The whole point about mech customisation is that you can change a mech to the way one want to pilot it, but you have to be limited by tonnage and heat and hardpoints, same as the battletech universe. That stops stupid stuff like PPC's on jenners, as they simiply won't work due to tonnage and overheating issues resulting in a meltdown.

...except you can put a PPC on a Jenner with full customization. 245XL engine, full armor, no JJ. 5 tons left over for extra heat sinks or whatever. You only need 2 to be able to run and fire the PPC without overheating.

[Thomas Hogarth]

syngyne, on 11 July 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

...except you can put a PPC on a Jenner with full customization. 245XL engine, full armor, no JJ. 5 tons left over for extra heat sinks or whatever. You only need 2 to be able to run and fire the PPC without overheating.

Your refit requires renting out factory floor space to perform the conversion: it cannot be done in a 'Mech bay. The cost of parts, and parts alone, is 1,298,333 C-Bills. This does not include the cost of paying the techs since that cost is peanuts compared to everything else. The refit would take 60 and a half days under the best of circumstances. It might take twice as - or even three times as - long if the tech isn't a very good tech. How much do you think it would cost to rent out a factory for six whole months? Remembering that the output of a 'Mech factory is spoken for years in advance, of course.

Just because you theoretically can do something doesn't mean you should see it every day. Otherwise we'd all be commuting to work in Harrier jump jets or the like.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 11 July 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[syngyne]

I agree with you about that. I was just replying to his statement that there are mechanics in place with full customization to prevent things like cramming a PPC in a Jenner, when there clearly aren't.

Edit: although it looks like I misread the intent of his post as well.

Edited by syngyne, 11 July 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[superepicgecko]

The Mechlab is one of the best parts of Mechwarrior! Limiting it would make combat a TON less interesting.

[Khan Brandon Ward]

I can understand the concern here I seem to remember falling in to this trap as a kid in MW2:GBL of running a Naga with like 18 MGs it could take down anything in seconds. That would ruin the fun for anyone wanting to create "canon friendly" Mechs. That being said MWO should be able to properly scale the damage of such weapons/setups.

[Thomas Hogarth]

superepicgecko, on 11 July 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

The Mechlab is one of the best parts of Mechwarrior! Limiting it would make combat a TON less interesting.

I'm not so sure about that.

The best experiences I've had playing MW4 were in canon configs only games, with canon armor amounts. Those experiences were by far the most interesting as you had to deal with the inherent flaws in every 'Mech.