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Mech customization NEEDS to be limited


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#101 Testien Surepath

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

View PostWolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Let me ask you this, WHY did we all, for lack of a better phrase, fall in love wiht Battletech tabletop game? We had pre-made mech sheets with their variaints to choose from and played them. It was FUN. It was challenging!! And if you used the right tactics, you won....

What I would like to see prevented is a "all purpose build" similiar to other games where you take a class and create a build and it beats all.



TT did come with ways to customise mechs, similarly to how we will be able to in MWO, moreso than MW4

#102 Flamekin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:10 PM

I will say that contrustion should be "restricted" but not "limited". The difference to me is that based on the points of the mech that are designed for energy based weapons, I should be allowed to do with what I want there. But I sure don't want a Catapult walking up to me and then randomly shooting PPC's out it's ears (literally). If there are different configs that allow the ears to be dropped for a more energy based weapon model, then that seems fine.

To sum up. I am fine with any amount of customization (I also think it's one of the best things in the world of battletech/mechwarrior), but I wouldn't want it to interfere with peoples expectations of what a mech "could" be packing, and allow for the model to show for that (IE, example above where a catapult fires PPC's out Missile ears, is wrong. Having multiple LRM10's instead of 15's/20's, if fine).

#103 DauntlessK

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:26 PM

Has anyone yet drawn a parallel between EVE and this? EVE allows for unlimited cusomtization and amazing combinations. You can take a battleship and make it a closerange missile boat or a long range arty sniper. BUT with the four race ships, each specific ship gets certain bonuses (say 10% to missile damage) making cusomtization almost worthless because playing anything other than a missile boat with that ship would clearly mark you as a dummy. And trust me, it is VERY commonplace to make fun of "fail fits" when someone fits missiles on a megathron (hybrid battleship) or tanks armor with a raven (a shield battleship)

Overall it makes a one-fit world where yes you CAN venture into something different but man will it be a failure if you do... so creativity is squashed. :)

#104 HuWanSum

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:27 PM

I think we should dumb the game down for these whiners so everyone loses interest in it and quits playing. Then they can have it all to themselves

#105 Fusea

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:31 PM

View PostThomas Hogarth, on 11 July 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:


Your refit requires renting out factory floor space to perform the conversion: it cannot be done in a 'Mech bay. The cost of parts, and parts alone, is 1,298,333 C-Bills. This does not include the cost of paying the techs since that cost is peanuts compared to everything else. The refit would take 60 and a half days under the best of circumstances. It might take twice as - or even three times as - long if the tech isn't a very good tech. How much do you think it would cost to rent out a factory for six whole months? Remembering that the output of a 'Mech factory is spoken for years in advance, of course.

Just because you theoretically can do something doesn't mean you should see it every day. Otherwise we'd all be commuting to work in Harrier jump jets or the like.


Why would it require the factory? The idea of refitting engines for xl engines in dropships, and even repairing them in the field is completely canon. Admittedly, it's not going to be performed under ideal conditions, but it can be done. The Master Rules on page 91 lists the total replacement time of an engine at just 360 minutes. That's 6 hours from start to engine calibrated and battle ready.
Just going out on a limb here, but an engine in battletech is probably connected to the chassis with engine mounts, a wiring harness to distribute the power, and data connection cables to control and monitor the output. So to swap it out, you will need a gantry crane and the tools to get at it. Since all 'mechs are required to under go service, I would guess that engne access is actually fairly simple in most designs. Figure the key pieces of the rear armor are hinged, with access points in the front to get at the front engine mounts, and attachment points built into the the engine housing to make crane connections easy.
Now retrofitting a larger engine or an xl would require access to a machine shop to fabricate the specialty parts, mostly new mounts, and may require the removal of all the armor on the back of the 'mech for access. So a more reasonable estimate would be a total turn around of a month in the styx with makeshift equipment and the tech phoning it in. A week to 2 weeks in a properly fitted 'mech bay or fully equipped dropship. And under a day if you have access to the factory, where you can grab a half completed chassis and a dedicated crane. Mind you, this is just for the engine. Any other changes will add their own replacement time to the mix.
All of this is just a long way of saying that I am a fan of custom jobs. I just think the game should include incentives and rules in place to keep the designs on the side of canonical and away from the absurdity you got in some of the earlier games.

#106 Monsoon

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:32 PM

I am in disagreement with the OP. I've stated it before, and I'm sure I will again. I don't believe in 'Unreasonable' builds, EVERYthing in MW has a trade off, weight and heat put serious constraints on just about anything you want to do. You want to put nothing but a million small lasers on your mech, go ahead, just try not to overheat and become a sitting target, that's assuming you don't die first just trying to get in range.

Too many heavy weapons? I guess you're getting that Walmart brand engine to accommodate the the excessive weight. What you're in trouble and need to get away? Too bad you moving slower then a turtle.

I've never found an unreasonable build, just new tactics to deal with different styles of weapon configs.

Hard points should more then handle any supposed 'Uber' tweaking, and those that suck will no doubt find some way to blame some perceived unfair advantage.


'nuff said. Make Mine Marvel. Excelsior!

#107 Syclonus

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:34 PM

from what I read, changing weapons doesn't mean changing how the mech looks. so loading gauss on instead of machine guns won't effect the appearance. I think they are going to do a system where you can switch the loadouts on a mech limited to certain hard-points restrictions but overall look of the mech(except for skins and cockpit fluff) will be pretty much standard.

#108 DauntlessK

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:36 PM

View PostSyclonus, on 11 July 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

from what I read, changing weapons doesn't mean changing how the mech looks. so loading gauss on instead of machine guns won't effect the appearance. I think they are going to do a system where you can switch the loadouts on a mech limited to certain hard-points restrictions but overall look of the mech(except for skins and cockpit fluff) will be pretty much standard.


I think that's another thing that will make things extra difficult because you won't exactly know what you're going up against from appearance... only until they actually start shooting will you know that the large laser in one arm is actually 4 smalls or a PPC...

#109 Syclonus

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:39 PM

once they start shooting I'm sure you will know whats coming at you :)

#110 DauntlessK

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostSyclonus, on 11 July 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

once they start shooting I'm sure you will know whats coming at you :)


Well yes but i'd consider myself at a severe disadvantage if i close in on a mech that appears and is supposed to have quite a few ac 2s and in reality its actually an ac20, only he was holding his fire until i got close. Then bam, too late for me.

Same would go for a catapault that was actually housing a number of SRMs instead of LRMs... if i closed in to get under the min range only to find out he actually has SRMs mounted... :)

Edited by DauntlessK, 11 July 2012 - 03:43 PM.


#111 Syclonus

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:45 PM

plus I would say it would be easy to tell, "Hey that catapult with the rocket pods on it is heading straight for me, either this will be a easy kill or I'm about to take a face full of short range missiles!"

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#112 Hive Rat

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:45 PM

View PostWolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:


Aye, hard point are fine, but still does not prevent "unreasonable" mech configs..


"reasonable" has a different meaning to everyone, as does "unreasonable."

#113 ZnSeventeen

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:48 PM

Okay, not to say mech customization doesn't need to be limited, and it is, but why is everyone branding boats as non canon and not fair? Anyone remember the Swayback, the Piranha 1 and 2, the Longbow, the Ha Otoko, the Viking, the Jagermech, the Awesome, heck even the Urbanmech sort of. They are canon, and you know what happens to them? They get beaten by something that is strong against them, or something that is decent in various roles, and can choose where and when to fight, and decide how the engagement goes down.
But on that note, I really hope this ends up not being purely boats like in Mechwarrior 4. I think the addition of hardpoints, torso/arms being separate, there being timed weapon convergence, and lasers doing damage over time will make most MW4 style boats much less effective.

#114 Roguewolf

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostDauntlessK, on 11 July 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:


Well yes but i'd consider myself at a severe disadvantage if i close in on a mech that appears and is supposed to have quite a few ac 2s and in reality its actually an ac20, only he was holding his fire until i got close. Then bam, too late for me.

Same would go for a catapault that was actually housing a number of SRMs instead of LRMs... if i closed in to get under the min range only to find out he actually has SRMs mounted... :)


In several of the canon books, they talk about engaged a mech that looks like it is armed in a stock way, and getting blasted by a weapon system that was not included in the stock build. It is just the nature of the universe that until the beams, missiles and autocannon rounds start to fly, you are not quite sure what the enemy is packing.

#115 Syclonus

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:53 PM

Wouldn't lasers do damage as long as you had them on target? Really the only thing that would regulate you is Aim(skill),Heat and Cycle times.

#116 Xevian Flux

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:04 PM

Customization is at the very heart of Battletech. Remember that most IS armies and all mercenary units lived and died on their ability to salvage the losing side's 'Mechs. This meant that loadouts and configurations changed constantly for units involved in any prolonged action.

#117 DauntlessK

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostRoguewolf, on 11 July 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:


In several of the canon books, they talk about engaged a mech that looks like it is armed in a stock way, and getting blasted by a weapon system that was not included in the stock build. It is just the nature of the universe that until the beams, missiles and autocannon rounds start to fly, you are not quite sure what the enemy is packing.


And i've read other canon books where the mechwarrior could readout from his computer what weapons were what and other stuff like... And you can't tell me that you can disguise / confuse an ac20 for a few ac2's. Not happening.... Same with the larger and less numerous SRMs... visually as well as what an onboard computer can pick up, i should be able to know at least at one point or another what the enemy mech has. maybe not at 200m+ but still...

#118 grimzod

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostWolv e, on 09 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

One of the biggest problems with previous Battle tech games was the "universal customization" allowance. Meaing everyone thought just because they salvaged or puchased it, it was going to fit on their mech, even tho common sense said no. Like a PPC on Jenner.........not gonna happen, or at least should not. However if you have the tonnage or willing to sacrifice things, you could make it happen, and this brought on the light - medium mechs with 12-18 small pulse lasers circle straffing ppl (which has been addressed in this game).

However playing the IS WAS supposed to be hard, they were no Omni mechs like the clans, thus the IS had Variants of their mechs and this is what we need to stick to also...the variant models. Or at the least limit the amount of a specific type of weapon can be put on an IS mech.

An Atlas with 4 large pulse lasers would make no sense, as there is already a mech that has that config (Rifleman IIC) and the Atlas role if close and personal with beefy armor, or would you put 3 ER PPC on an Atlas, when the Awesome already has that config?

To be true to the table top game you also have to be true to the varaints and each mechs limitations, as each mech was built to fit a role with certain needs in mind.

The Omi mech (clan mechs and later the IS introduced their versions) Is the only mech capable of taking and swapping various weapson and heatsinks without penalty...........we should keep it like that. My 2 cents...FLAME ON!


Already done: read a little about hardpoints. And good god grow up.

#119 Kami3k

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostDauntlessK, on 11 July 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Has anyone yet drawn a parallel between EVE and this? EVE allows for unlimited cusomtization and amazing combinations. You can take a battleship and make it a closerange missile boat or a long range arty sniper. BUT with the four race ships, each specific ship gets certain bonuses (say 10% to missile damage) making cusomtization almost worthless because playing anything other than a missile boat with that ship would clearly mark you as a dummy. And trust me, it is VERY commonplace to make fun of "fail fits" when someone fits missiles on a megathron (hybrid battleship) or tanks armor with a raven (a shield battleship)

Overall it makes a one-fit world where yes you CAN venture into something different but man will it be a failure if you do... so creativity is squashed. :)


Lol, fail fits are fits that go against the ship's bonuses AND have no benefit. Plenty of fits that go against what the bonuses would say would be good exist. And that isn't even including Tech 3s....

You're an example of a player that shouldn't be listen too becaues they have no clue what they are talking about. Same type of player that makes tanks that are good, be nerfed in WoT from whining.

Edited by Kami3k, 11 July 2012 - 04:35 PM.


#120 DauntlessK

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:49 PM

View PostKami3k, on 11 July 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:


Lol, fail fits are fits that go against the ship's bonuses AND have no benefit. Plenty of fits that go against what the bonuses would say would be good exist. And that isn't even including Tech 3s....

You're an example of a player that shouldn't be listen too becaues they have no clue what they are talking about. Same type of player that makes tanks that are good, be nerfed in WoT from whining.


Really? Doesn't even make sense... for you to tell me a ship has no benefit and go against ship bonuses? um what? Just because it doesn't use its bonuses doesn't mean it has no benefit...a missile megathron has benefits... it DOES damage, and can look like good prey haha... but nonetheless, its a fail fail fit... I never said anything that doesn't use its bonuses is a fail fit. I just said it REALLY discourages creativity and a diverse selection of fits. You cannot argue that.





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