344 replies to this topic

[Kami3k]

DauntlessK, on 11 July 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Really? Doesn't even make sense... for you to tell me a ship has no benefit and go against ship bonuses? um what? Just because it doesn't use its bonuses doesn't mean it has no benefit...a missile megathron has benefits... it DOES damage, and can look like good prey haha... but nonetheless, its a fail fail fit... I never said anything that doesn't use its bonuses is a fail fit. I just said it REALLY discourages creativity and a diverse selection of fits. You cannot argue that.

Farther proving my second point. Has no benefit over a standard fit. Not to mention a missile mega can only have 2 missile launchers! That's like bringing atlas to the field with just 2 SRM 2s fitted. So much damage!!1111

And it really discourages crativity and a diverse selection of fits? I can certainly argue against that.

Battleclinic - Browse Loadout, Highest rated.

With so much fail I'm thinking you're as much of a troll as the OP.

Edited by Kami3k, 11 July 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[Stormcujo]

SuperClone, on 10 July 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Variants only would cause me to not play this game, and here is why:

For starters, let me say, that Variants never made a good transition into the Mech Game Simulatior space. There was always a variant which had at least one weapon which had little or no practical use in a PvP game. On the table top or in the novel it worked out great because (at least in the novels) One Missle salvo or AC chain could cripple a mech. When designing a PC game balance has to be considered, and so as a result things don't always translate the way you might expect. So, ultimately, you would chose a variant, and that variant would contain a sub par weapon and is now wasted space.

I remember when I was playing Mech2/4 online. I, personaly did not like running out of ammo or having my ammo get critically hit and explode. So I chose to run all Energy Weps, perhaps 1-2 LRM20's. Taking all energy weps caused me to have to manage heat much more and caused me to have to devote much more tonnage to heat sinks. But, that was the trade off to building my mech the way that fit my play style and strategy.

I am going to use an analogy so, if anyone is still reading this please try to detach from Battletech universe and let me explain a modern gaming example that I feel is a clear equation to a variant only model:

First Person shooters. FPS's typically now a days, use a system where you start off with a number of "premade" load outs for your guy and they are there for people to use until they start to unlock "Custom Class" slots and higher level weapons. My point here is, nobody uses these pre-made classes once they can make custom classes.

I think wolvey is afraid that you'll either end up with Energy Boats or Missle boats, if you don't force the players to chose from variants. But I'm here to say this is not the case. As long as there is always a trade off to taking an extreme build you will have players who think the price is too high for such an extreme build. Most people are not risk taker people. Generally, players are people who will stick with simple rather then complex and not take a risky build. The trick is to make sure that "Crazy" mech designs come with "High Risk" as well. "This jenner has 34 Small lasers ....and Zero heat sinks." You might get one good shot off before your heat is red-lined. Or, "this Awesome took nothing but LRM20's ... but all you have to do is sneeze on the guy and all that ammo detonates critically"

When players really start to think "If I take X, then I must also include Y, but if I have Y, I can't have Z. Is this worth it? What situation might it be worth it? What battlefield tactics can I implement to make this build pay off? Is there something I can get a lance mate to do that will help?" You will really start to have tactics and you will start to see real cat and mouse games. And what about reputation? "Such-and-such is a good player, I've played him before - but he takes risks and tends to think outside of the box"

All of this is why I love Mechwarrior multiplayer and I just think forcing players into one variant or another and telling them to "do the best you can with what you are given" makes things pretty dull.

+1 Completly agree with you. No matter what your config is there will be + and - with it. I don't care who you are everyweapon has advantages and disadvantages. You put this perfectly.

[DauntlessK]

Kami3k, on 11 July 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Farther proving my second point. Has no benefit over a standard fit. Not to mention a missile mega can only have 2 missile launchers! That's like bringing atlas to the field with just 2 SRM 2s fitted. So much damage!!1111

And it really discourages crativity and a diverse selection of fits? I can certainly argue against that.

Battleclinic - Browse Loadout, Highest rated.

With so much fail I'm thinking you're as much of a troll as the OP.

That is my point exactly. You prove my point in the second sentence, thank you. No benefit over the STANDARD fit. My point from the beginning, there is a standard fit and deviating from said fit will get you absolutely no where, to the point where only 1-2 fits are acceptable for a given ship. I've been advocating for the lack OF a standard fit... I don't know why this is so complicated for you to understand.

[Stormcujo]

I have faith the devs know what there doin to avoid letting certain chasis become OP. Hardpoints are the way to do this. They will reward people that think outside the box and try different things. I'm excited to get this underway and test different loadouts.

[Kami3k]

DauntlessK, on 11 July 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

That is my point exactly. You prove my point in the second sentence, thank you. No benefit over the STANDARD fit. My point from the beginning, there is a standard fit and deviating from said fit will get you absolutely no where, to the point where only 1-2 fits are acceptable for a given ship. I've been advocating for the lack OF a standard fit... I don't know why this is so complicated for you to understand.

No, I said that is what a fail fit is. Something that goes against the bonuses of a ship AND has no benefit.

Plenty of good, even great fits, are out of the box. Shield Hyperion, fast and even more deadly. Buffer fit, lots of a EHP with still good damage. Active fit, able to stay in fights the other two would easily die in.

Bonuses of the ship? Large hybrid turret damage and active armor repair. Only one of those fits uses both bonuses.

You have to be a troll, or just completely clueless.

[roguetrdr]

Here's a thought- Perhaps the devs know what they're doing and we should just wait and see how it pans out before we get all worked up.

[DauntlessK]

Kami3k, on 11 July 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

No, I said that is what a fail fit is. Something that goes against the bonuses of a ship AND has no benefit.

Plenty of good, even great fits, are out of the box. Shield Hyperion, fast and even more deadly. Buffer fit, lots of a EHP with still good damage. Active fit, able to stay in fights the other two would easily die in.

Bonuses of the ship? Large hybrid turret damage and active armor repair. Only one of those fits uses both bonuses.

You have to be a troll, or just completely clueless.

I give up. You fail to see any comparison and just want to argue about fail fits, which was merely a comparing point. Sorry you cannot comprehend such thoughts and wish only to argue about what fail ships are.

Stormcujo, on 11 July 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

I have faith the devs know what there doin to avoid letting certain chasis become OP. Hardpoints are the way to do this. They will reward people that think outside the box and try different things. I'm excited to get this underway and test different loadouts.

Yeah i'm not overly worried. I just do not wish to see everyone running around with the same mech and/or loadouts but like i said I don't think its something that i am sweating over. Just speculation. I would like to see how the game would be without mech lab but that is just me and I do enjoy customization on the other hand. Either way will be okay.

[Pyriel Ward]

Not too worried about it

[StainlessSR]

light487, on 09 July 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

I think the confusion is that there are Hardpoints (mounting point) AND Critical Points (space it takes up). So hardpoints are just some arbitrary, fixed amount of weapons that can loaded in to that section (regardless of the size of the component/weapon). Weapons also have a "variable" amount of Critical Points.

So let's say you have 6 Critical Points and 3 Hardpoints:

- You can only load a maximum of 3 weapons, even if the total space taken by those weapons is less than 6 Critical Points and adding a 4th (or more) weapon would still take equal to or less than 6 Crits. You are limited to 3 weapons by the amount of mounting points (Hardpoints)
- Using the example that a PPC takes up (i'm just making this up) 4 Crits, you could only load 1 PPC.. you would then have 2 Hardpoints and 2 crits left. If a Medium Laser took up 2 crits, then you could load a single medium laser but not two. If a small laser took up 1 crit, you could load 2 small lasers but not 3.

From what I have seen and read this is the way they went, and I like it.

Hardpoints weapon connection points (energy for energy weapons, ballistic for guns and missile for missiles)
this limits the type and number of weapons that you can stuff in a space

Critical slots The actual physical space representation (the bigger the gun the more crits it takes, no very small mechs with ac20)

Here is where varients will come into play. One poster talked about a catapult with missile pods with PPC mounted inside. From what I have sen this would be impossible; however, the catapult variant that has PPC instead of missile pods could do this, it changes the hardpoints in the arms from missile to energy.

Mu, on 24 June 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

This is a screenshot of the K2 variant, but the torso slots are probably the same on the C1.



As you can see, plenty of room for a PPC in there.

So while it may be shooting PPC's at you you can see that it isn't a missile mech, just a canon varient ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult ) that has 2 energy and 2 ballistic hardpoints and no missile hardpoints. This is what is going to make varient's viable (wanted) in the game so you can have different hardpoints for customization.

[Tibs]

Harusee, on 11 July 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Actually I never had premade mech sheets. I had the build information but the sheets were all blanks. Keep in mind I played my first TT game before a lot of current forum members took their first breath of life. I fell in love with this game because I could spend as much time designing the mechs as I did blasting away others with them. Each mech design IS basically an empty shell with a certain weight class limit. The developers have put restrictions in place that TT did not have. They have also had to come up with mechanics for the live action version of the game. Can you imagine what we would do with TT rules in place? I would have an 80 ton boxer with a 400 XL engine, and I would be covered in small lasers and machine guns. I would have a fist made for punching and a body built for charging and yes, DFA with an 80 ton mech with 5 jump jets. I would be death incarnate, and people would fear my approach. unfortunately, or fortunately, the devs have put an absolute limit on the number of weapons hardpoints available. Protecting your game from excessive contamination.

i played when iw as 8 when game come out .... loved it and had tons freidns come over and all have 1 lance in a pvp combat... good old times ... love makeing a 100 ton with gauss or ac 10 with a ppc one arm and max mg in other arm like a gatining gun ... my fav mechs were fast ad jump in game spider was my fav

[Gunslinger2]

I can see it now, the whining and crying in this game will surpass even that of the MekTek MW4 online crowd.

There needs to be a server set up specifically for those that cry alot about how things aren't following the TT rules.
Cheese and rice people, if you want to have TT rules then play the TT game, not an online game thats looking to last awhile.

I used to love to hunt the whiners in MW4 until they either shut up, or left the server... guess some things never change.

Guns

[Kingdom]

In my opinion the table top game required you to try and bring the right mechs or a balanced force to the the table. The variants added flavor and sometimes surprise to the engagement. You had to use tactics to win. We often played tonnage allowed or you had to have you lances mixed with mechs of different sizes. One time I played against a friend and he wanted straight tonnage, we agreed on 200 tons each. He brought 2 Atlas's and I brought 4 Trebuchets. In 4 turns One atlas was a smoking crater and the other was badly damaged I had lost one Treb. I am unsure how force makeup will be handled but I hope its not all Assault all the time.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Fusea, on 11 July 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Why would it require the factory? The idea of refitting engines for xl engines in dropships, and even repairing them in the field is completely canon. Admittedly, it's not going to be performed under ideal conditions, but it can be done.

Repairing is easier than refitting. Repairs can certainly be performed in the 'Mech bay. However, refitting a 'Mech with a different engine rating requires a good maintenance facility(Class D). Furthermore, changing out to an XL is one of the most difficult things to do to a 'Mech, being in the same category as replacing standard internals with endo, changing out the gyro or changing out the cockpit type(Class F). The rules for this can be found in Strategic Operations, which is in the rulebook set which is the most current(and will likely remain so for many, many years). The page to find this info is on Pg 188. Be sure to check Pg 189 to see how a completely custom variant modifies the difficulty and time.

Fusea, on 11 July 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

The Master Rules on page 91 lists the total replacement time of an engine at just 360 minutes. That's 6 hours from start to engine calibrated and battle ready.

I need more details on which book than 'the master rules'. Also, replacement of a damaged engine is NOT the same as shoving in a totally different sized engine.

Fusea, on 11 July 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Now retrofitting a larger engine or an xl would require access to a machine shop to fabricate the specialty parts, mostly new mounts, and may require the removal of all the armor on the back of the 'mech for access. So a more reasonable estimate would be a total turn around of a month in the styx with makeshift equipment and the tech phoning it in. A week to 2 weeks in a properly fitted 'mech bay or fully equipped dropship. And under a day if you have access to the factory, where you can grab a half completed chassis and a dedicated crane. Mind you, this is just for the engine. Any other changes will add their own replacement time to the mix.

Internal structure isn't simply machined steel. To say that producing custom battlemech parts is more complicated than firing up your friendly corner machine shop would be a masterpiece of understatement.

I didn't just pull 60.5 days out of my nether regions. The math was performed. If you'd like to backcheck me, I've given you the book and page number required to start you off.

Fusea, on 11 July 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

All of this is just a long way of saying that I am a fan of custom jobs. I just think the game should include incentives and rules in place to keep the designs on the side of canonical and away from the absurdity you got in some of the earlier games.

I don't mind custom jobs if I feel shock and surprise when I see one. Holy crap, that's a custom! Throw out the rules I've developed for dealing with XYZ 'Mech because this is a whole new bag of cats! The only way to do that is to find a way to limit the number of them played. Making it so it's hard to break a profit in custom machines might fit the bill.

[4ftershock]

So... from reading the Pro-limitation side. They want to limit customization so that there will be more variety to the game and less "optimization" leading to "The best" builds.

Unfortunately your logic is still flawed. If we're only left with 12 choices of mechs, there will be 1 mech that will be "The best" and you are right back to everyone showing up in the same mech. At least with customization, you'll have a little more diversity out there.

[Thomas Hogarth]

4ftershock, on 11 July 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

So... from reading the Pro-limitation side. They want to limit customization so that there will be more variety to the game and less "optimization" leading to "The best" builds.

Unfortunately your logic is still flawed. If we're only left with 12 choices of mechs, there will be 1 mech that will be "The best" and you are right back to everyone showing up in the same mech. At least with customization, you'll have a little more diversity out there.

If we're dealing in absolutes...

You claim that with increased limitations, players will pick the best and everyone will use that. I counter that with the limitations that are currently slated based on the dev blogs, players will pick the best and everyone will use that. The major difference is that the 'Mechs will be more comparable to their TRO loadouts and - get ready for the incredulous gasps - identifiable based on their performance.

[Xandre Blackheart]

It still sounds rather ironic that people want to increase the diversity of mech builds by limiting customization. Perhaps counter-intuitive is a better term.

I understand the desire to avoid optimization of a single design until it is the only logical choice, but I just don't see that happening with the current restrictions in place - such as hardpoints, actual cbill costs for repair, and defined roles for different mechs (especially scout mechs).

As for the fear of being surprised by a non-standard mech design, that's actually part of the fun of battletech. Knowing what to expect and predict every time I see a jenner pop over the hill is boring as crap. People who can't handle the unexpected will just have to adapt.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 11 July 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

I want to be able to recognize what is shooting at me by what it's shooting at me. Catapults should be showering me with LRMs, Catapult-K2s should be blasting me with PPCs, Hunchback-4Gs should be whacking me with autocannon beatsticks... so on so forth. The secondary armament should be a lot more variable. Heat sink numbers can be variable. Whatever.

I don't want to see Catapults with nothing in the missile pods and Hunchbacks with PPCs in the arms and nothing else. Those are neither Catapults or Hunchbacks. Actually, I apologize. Those are absolute statements. I wouldn't mind seeing those every now and then as a "whoa what the heck" kind of thing. That adds something. But when they're all unidentifiable based on what they're shooting, it's hard to immerse myself into the game.

I mean, we saw this in MW4. The game didn't get fun for me until we started running canon TRO builds only.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 11 July 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Glythe]

If you want to play a mech game with no customization I suggest you go play MechAssault. It was a fun multiplayer game if you are wanting to play an arcade robot shoot-em-up; but it is in no way a Battletech game.

The devs are working hard to get this game rolling.... why not give it a try before you declare you hate it?

Customization is good and from all the discussions I have seen it looks as if there will be no optimal combination. What you have is a scenario where A beats B, B beats C and C beats A in multiple variations (based purely on numerical damage and resulting win expectations).

I enjoy a good strategy game where you get to decide how to customize your units. In addition to just being a shooter game with strategic team elements there is a great deal of strategy involved with how you setup your mech (and possibly your lance). To a degree pre-game mech setup might very well differentiate a win from a loss.

Without being able to choose your weapon setup what differentiates this game from World of Tanks? WoT has tanks instead of Mechs.

Please stop trying to kill one of the coolest aspects of this game.

[wmau24]

really stupid topic, either you like customizable badass mech hardpoints or you like premade lameness, next topic plz

[Tilon]

The people claiming that total customization is what Battletech is about are a bit mistaken.

In the RPG rules and building rules, custom mods on a mech were very difficult for a tech to do, especially if it changed the weight of the location, I believe. You'd have to own a factory or something to do it with any measure of reliability.

Yes, for people who loved fighting with customs, there were of course TT rules for making your own mechs from scratch.

However, in this system, where you are buying canon variants, the mods should not be unlimited, and it's not canon to make it unlimited, either.