23 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

So I was thinking about what we can change and all the mechanics of the game, and it crossed my mind that Endo Steel might be a really strange 'upgrade' that we have. From what I understand of the lore, Endo Steel is a manufacturing aspect of the mech and the core frame of the mech is what we're supposedly 'swapping'.

Am I wrong or is this essentially a mechanic that we should actually lose, and have it locked to the specific chassis/variants it comes naturally on? I know it would create a major difference in a lot of mechs and change the game balance a lot when a ton of these mechs suddenly can't free up random tonnage suddenly. However the specific variants that naturally come with Endo would suddenly have a special characteristic about them making unique and have another aspect to separate them from the others.

Not looking for a troll thread, or to be spammed with 'go home clanner' or some other ****. A legitimate discussion here as I was listening to one of the Novels the other day and a fairly elaborate description struck the chord that brought me to think about this.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 03 November 2015 - 10:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

you are not wrong.

The Internal Structure is literally the engineered skeleton and musculature of a mech.

As such, outside of a Facotry, taking the time to fully re-engineer it, it would be prohibitively expensive, and difficult.

One could have a custom chassis made, but the time and cost would be as much or more as a whole mech.

So you are correct, the Internal Structure should NEVER have been "swappable".

And Many of us have tried to point this out to PGI since early Closed Beta.

[MauttyKoray]

Thanks for the feedback Steiner, good to confirm what I suspected on the lore part. Its a part of MW as a series so you can't expect people to change sadly.

Wasn't aware of the CBT thing though, my comp didn't use to run it so I've only played for about 2.5-3 years or so.

[Homeskilit]

I believe the internal structure could be swap-able if you imagine a mech's structure like that of a human. It would be possible to go through the mech section by section and remove the "bones" and replace them with lighter ones. Now it would certainly be time consuming and expensive, but not impossible.

As to removing Endo Steel, the problem is that Endo and Ferrous Fiber do essentially the same thing so one of them needs to be changed. I would vote for changing FF do be armor, structure, or defense related while leaving Endo the way it is.

Edited by Homeskilit, 03 November 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[FupDup]

This would nerf the crap out of the Inner Sphere, because most of their stock mechs lack Endo Steel.

The lucky variants with Endo wouldn't be "unique," they would be the only variants that are even viable at all.

[Damocles]

Homeskilit, on 03 November 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

I believe the internal structure could be swap-able if you imagine a mech's structure like that of a human. It would be possible to go through the mech section by section and remove the "bones" and replace them with lighter ones. Now it would certainly be time consuming and expensive, but not impossible.

You vastly over estimate the amount of knowledge the Techs of this IP have regarding the proper inner workings of these machines.

[MauttyKoray]

Damocles, on 03 November 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

You vastly over estimate the amount of knowledge the Techs of this IP have regarding the proper inner workings of these machines.

More like Bishop said, it would cost a LOT, basically its the entire bone structure of the mech.

On the balance comment: That's why you balance the game... If you compare MWO to Battletech, we basically run 3x the weapons and 2x the armor, so that's pretty crazy imo if you want to talk about 'balance'. Most of the chassis that have Endo on the IS seem to have some sort of negative issue as well though which seem to balance it out.

This was less a **** fest about balance and more of a discussion of the whole 'Endo Steel is actually the mech' thing I brought up.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 03 November 2015 - 10:39 PM.

[Xetelian]

I like that we can use of some of those slots for weight savings.

[FupDup]

MauttyKoray, on 03 November 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

On the balance comment: That's why you balance the game... If you compare MWO to Battletech, we basically run 3x the weapons and 2x the armor, so that's pretty crazy imo if you want to talk about 'balance'. Most of the chassis that have Endo on the IS seem to have some sort of negative issue as well though which seem to balance it out.

The IS Endo variants generally don't have any more downside than their STD-Structure equivalents. Most of them would become direct upgrades over their peers, because Endo itself is a direct upgrade unless you're a high-end assault mech with more tonnage to burn than critslots.

Making every weapon have their TT firing rates and cutting armor/internal values back to TT values wouldn't change that Endo is superior in most cases.

MauttyKoray, on 03 November 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

This was less a **** fest about balance and more of a discussion of the whole 'Endo Steel is actually the mech' thing I brought up.

When an idea has a large impact on balance, you can't just dismiss concerns about how it's gonna affect balance.

Edited by FupDup, 03 November 2015 - 10:38 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

The IS Endo variants generally don't have any more downside than their STD-Structure equivalents. Most of them would become direct upgrades over their peers, because Endo itself is a direct upgrade unless you're a high-end assault mech with more tonnage to burn than critslots.

Making every weapon have their TT firing rates and cutting armor/internal values back to TT values wouldn't change that Endo is superior in most cases.



When an idea has a large impact on balance, you can't just dismiss concerns about how it's gonna affect balance.

You're treating it like I'm suggesting a change to the game. I'm not. I said that I thought about this and how its a major production aspect of a mech (like, a factory production thing, not just a mech garage hot swap) compared to MWO where its a simple click and a ridiculously small amount of CBills. I brought up to discussion this fact and what if switching between standard and Endo weren't a thing. Differences in variants could be unique in this aspect, such as standard variants getting more hardpoints to take advantage of more low tonnage weapons while endo variants could have fewer hardpoints and thus be more viable with larger weaponry?

I think one of the problems of this game is the fact that Endo is in fact a straight upgrade and almost every mech ever gets switched to it. Its not a choice, not an alternate, its the core choice for practically every mech. However, that's not the discussion, what I stated above is.

Oh, and for the last ******* time in any thread ever that I've created "IM NOT ******* TRYING TO MAKE THIS TT." An idiot could realize that when you base something like Mechwarrior, an action oriented game, off a TT, a turn based game, things will NOT directly translate. However you can still use things like the TT rules as a basis for an ADAPTATION to a real time game. My favorite being weapons "What, you only want us to fire every 10 seconds?" ... "No, you're stupid, it does the amount of damage WITHIN A 10 SECOND PERIOD. Not just ONCE every 10 seconds. It could fire two, three, even four times within that 10 seconds and do its damage...ffs."

Honestly I think the anti-TT people are worse than the TT-strict guys in terms of attitude and sheer douchbaggery.

[sceii]

MauttyKoray, on 03 November 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

More like Bishop said, it would cost a LOT, basically its the entire bone structure of the mech.

On the balance comment: That's why you balance the game... If you compare MWO to Battletech, we basically run 3x the weapons and 2x the armor, so that's pretty crazy imo if you want to talk about 'balance'. Most of the chassis that have Endo on the IS seem to have some sort of negative issue as well though which seem to balance it out.

This was less a **** fest about balance and more of a discussion of the whole 'Endo Steel is actually the mech' thing I brought up.

And less then 1x heat dissipation and cap, do not forget it, mate.

[Pjwned]

I can see the point here, but the problem is that standard structure would need to be worthwhile too or else it would just be a case of "this small selection of mechs is superior to everything else," and by small selection that would mostly (but also not exclusively) mean clan mechs that are already good.

Even if both structure types were balanced though, I'm still not a fan of it being locked on a chassis/variant basis because it takes customization options away; we should just have each structure type and each armor type be worthwhile instead (assuming we're talking about battlemechs here) and let people choose which structure & armor type they want without any fake choice crap like it is now.

Edited by Pjwned, 03 November 2015 - 11:41 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

MauttyKoray, on 03 November 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

More like Bishop said, it would cost a LOT, basically its the entire bone structure of the mech.

On the balance comment: That's why you balance the game... If you compare MWO to Battletech, we basically run 3x the weapons and 2x the armor, so that's pretty crazy imo if you want to talk about 'balance'. Most of the chassis that have Endo on the IS seem to have some sort of negative issue as well though which seem to balance it out.

well not 2x the armor - its more 1/2 or 1/4 of BattleTech armor

really would like to see ES and FF to work different from standard parts -
FF - is written in hundreds of posts - don't fix the number of points; fix the tonnage of armor
for ES - reduce the "strength" by ~25% (instead of 15 points internal structur a ES head would only have 11)

(ok that would reduce MWO armor towards 1/5 of BT armor

[Leone]

Actually according to lore the Free Worlds League was making mech refit kits to upgrade existing IS mechs to compete with the clans. There was even the whole 'Bribe Thomas Marik with medical care for his dying son' chapter and the 'Oh no, he's angry we replaced his dead kid with a double to bilk him for more tech' section. (Yeah, the Davions were not good people.) While endo steel was not explicitly stated, those books I remember them in were known for glossing over a lotta details since they were focused on the political aspect.

It stands within reason that while time consuming (which they were mentioned being) these refits could very well include an internal structure overhaul.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 04 November 2015 - 02:06 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Leone, on 04 November 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

It stands within reason that while time consuming (which they were mentioned being) these refits could very well include an internal structure overhaul.

Newer RuleBooks - Strategical Operations made clear what are "field; hanger and factory" refit kits.

Quote

Class A Refit (Field): This kit allows players to replace one
weapon with another of the same category and with the same
(or fewer) critical spaces (including ammunition). For example,
players may replace a medium laser with a medium pulse laser or
ER medium laser, or replace an AC/10 with an LB 10-X AC, and so
on. Additionally, changing a weapon’s location or facing falls into
this category.
Class B Re t (Field): This kit allows replacement of one category
of weapon with another class of weapon(s), but with the same or
fewer critical spaces (including ammunition); for example, replacing
a machine gun and ammo with a small pulse laser, replacing
a Gauss rifl e with two large lasers (as they’re both the same class
and have fewer critical slots), and so on.
Class C Re t (Maintenance): This kit allows players to replace
one type of armor with another (all locations); for example, replacing
standard armor with ferro-fi brous. A Class C kit also enables
replacement of a weapon or item of equipment with any other,
even if it is larger than the item(s) being replaced; for example,
replacing an ER large laser with an LRM-10 launcher and ammunition.
Players may also change armor quantity and/or distribution,
move a component, or add ammunition or a heat sink.
Class D Re t (Maintenance): This kit permits players to install
a new item where previously there was none, or to install an ECM
suite, C3 system or targeting computer. Players may also change
heat sink types (including those integral to an engine) or engine
ratings (but not the engine type). Finally, a Class D kit allows players
to replace a location with a custom part.
Class E Re t (Factory): This kit lets players change the type of
myomer installed, install CASE, and/or increase the unit’s Quality
Rating one level.
Class F Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change a unit’s
internal structure type (all locations), engine type, gyro type, or
cockpit type. If a fusion engine is replaced by another type of
power plant, i.e. Fission or ICE, then the total number of heat sinks
mounted should be adjusted as indicated on the bonus heat sink
table (see p. 71, TM).

well just because its the next chapter:

Quote

BattleTech story and sourcebook fi ction is fi lled with descriptions
of various designs whose unique quirks aff ect their
abilities—from the Javelin and its off center of gravity that
makes it prone to falling at high speeds, to the Catapult and
its faulty jump jets that can break and increase its heat during
battle, to the Behemoth DropShip that requires two docking
collars and so on. There are also illustrations of ’Mechs that
often fall far outside the norm, such as the Stalker that plainly
doesn’t have arms, or the Jenner that has obvious diffi culty
torso twisting and so on.

However, game design and balance cannot be dictated by
fiction or illustrations. Therefore, while such fiction is fun and
believable and the wide variety of illustrations provides a wonderful
diversity, not seeing such unique quirks play out on the
field of battle—particularly when real-world vehicles provide
so many existing quirks—lessens the connection between the
universe and the game board.

Design quirks are a set of optional rules that allow players
to bring the individuality of illustrations and story and
sourcebook fiction—not to mention the uniqueness that can
result from an endless series of field patches by a resourceful
tech—to the gaming table. This section provides a series of
positive and negative quirks, each with a numerical value that
determines the relative strength or weakness of a given quirk.
As this section—like all sections in this book—is considered
advanced rules, it is strongly recommended that if a player
chooses a positive quirk for a design, he or she should give
it negative quirks of equal or greater value as well. All players
in a group should agree to the use of design quirks before
play begins, and so each playing group can decide if negative
quirks must balance positive quirks.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 November 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[DerMaulwurf]

Pjwned, on 03 November 2015 - 11:39 PM, said:

I can see the point here, but the problem is that standard structure would need to be worthwhile too or else it would just be a case of "this small selection of mechs is superior to everything else," and by small selection that would mostly (but also not exclusively) mean clan mechs that are already good.

Even if both structure types were balanced though, I'm still not a fan of it being locked on a chassis/variant basis because it takes customization options away; we should just have each structure type and each armor type be worthwhile instead (assuming we're talking about battlemechs here) and let people choose which structure & armor type they want without any fake choice crap like it is now.

I can understand you, because clan mechs pretty much illustrate the point: with fixed internals, the mechs with ES are generally preferable to those without. So far PGI has tried to work around that with quirks, which wasn't that successfull if we take a look at the dominant clan chassis.

But I am not generally opposed to limiting customization options. Because I think that the degree of customization that PGI has offered has not made the game better. Instead every mech that could be bent to a meta-build was. I think that in the end more customization has reduced build diversity and I don't like that. In the end it doesn't even increase diversity of variants/chassis choices, because each optimal build will have an optimal platform.

Of course it's legitimate to point out that less customization options will likely result in seeing only a very limited selection of variants/mechs in matches. But in the end end one approach hinges on balancing variants against each other, while the other requires balance between components. What we have now, are the same meta builds on every mech where it is possible and the same complaints about mechs where it isn't.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MauttyKoray, on 03 November 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

So I was thinking about what we can change and all the mechanics of the game, and it crossed my mind that Endo Steel might be a really strange 'upgrade' that we have. From what I understand of the lore, Endo Steel is a manufacturing aspect of the mech and the core frame of the mech is what we're supposedly 'swapping'.

Am I wrong or is this essentially a mechanic that we should actually lose, and have it locked to the specific chassis/variants it comes naturally on? I know it would create a major difference in a lot of mechs and change the game balance a lot when a ton of these mechs suddenly can't free up random tonnage suddenly. However the specific variants that naturally come with Endo would suddenly have a special characteristic about them making unique and have another aspect to separate them from the others.

Not looking for a troll thread, or to be spammed with 'go home clanner' or some other ****. A legitimate discussion here as I was listening to one of the Novels the other day and a fairly elaborate description struck the chord that brought me to think about this.

I don't think you are wrong in thinking that.

If a car is fully customized for racing, a race team very well might strip a car down to the uni-body structure and replace body panels, suspension, engine, etc..., but that structure remains the same. Basically that chassis is complex and very expensive, so it doesn't get changed out.

So in theory, you are right in thinking that. However...

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

This would nerf the crap out of the Inner Sphere, because most of their stock mechs lack Endo Steel.

The lucky variants with Endo wouldn't be "unique," they would be the only variants that are even viable at all.

The impact of enforcing a no Endo change policy would basically cause what Fup pointed out. The effects would be less severe the heavier the mech was (such as Heavy and Assault mechs) because those probably only used Endo to begin with and are now forced to use Ferro. They would have a little less tonnage to play with and therefore a nerf, but the effects wouldn't be as severe. The Lights (and maybe mediums) on the other hand (which use Endo and Ferro) would be completely devastated. Many if not all Lights that didn't come with Endo would be nerfed into oblivion.

I think the system is basically best left as is. It is a bit nonsensical, but altering it would have some nasty results for the lighter IS chassis.

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 03 November 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

I believe the internal structure could be swap-able if you imagine a mech's structure like that of a human. It would be possible to go through the mech section by section and remove the "bones" and replace them with lighter ones. Now it would certainly be time consuming and expensive, but not impossible.

As to removing Endo Steel, the problem is that Endo and Ferrous Fiber do essentially the same thing so one of them needs to be changed. I would vote for changing FF do be armor, structure, or defense related while leaving Endo the way it is.

Here's the issue.

The Mech is a compact, sealed system, which is what allows them to operate in water, vacuum, etc.

Like all military systems, the interiors are cramped, and with things as tightly packed as possible, to minimize target aspect.

Now, we get to the INternal Structure. The Endo Steel is 14 critical slots to install, because it's MUCH bulkier than a standard Internal Structure skeleton. Imagine taking the skeleton out of a person, then trying to fit the skeleton of a much larger person back in. Suddenly, crucial systems have no space, coolant and lube lines are crushed, critical systems don't fit where they need to anymore, etc. Now on Clan Omnis this gets even worse, because all the weapons are plug and play, so any alteration of interior space, alters those sockets (think about those lovely furniture kits you get that have the holes that never line up.

Essentially, you would have to re-engineer everything to fit arounds this new bulkier skeleton.

That's neither cheap, nor easy.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 November 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Essentially, you would have to re-engineer everything to fit arounds this new bulkier skeleton.

That's neither cheap, nor easy.

That's why it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars .

PGI COULD make Endo a locked item. To not impact the the IS chassis so much, they could say that a mech without Endo would be eligible for a Ferro Stage 2 upgrade. The upgrade would be comparable to running Endo and Ferro.

After all that though, it would be more programming and a more convoluted structure/armor system, and at the end of the day it would be adding all this for no gain or loss but instead allow some players to help suspend disbelief.

I think it is just better to not think too deeply into the logistics of swaping in an Endo structure, and just let it ride.

[Shae Starfyre]

I think that the different skeleton structures should provide increases and decreases to internal/component hit points.

I think Standard is the bulkier structure and should provide more internal protection.
Ferro a little less
Endo even less so (potentially taking away from the internal hit points; and possibly making Components inside more likely to be criticaled).