144 replies to this topic

[1Grimbane]

i will concede the atlas ain't what it used to be, my five are dust collectors now but the banshee variants really shine, ballistic or energy heavy. also the warhawk has the others beat in speed

Edited by 1Grimbane, 05 November 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[GreyNovember]

King of the Woad, on 05 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

So you'd argue that lights are where they should be in terms of survivability and damage output?

For the heaviest of lights? Probably.

The Locust is a very nice example of distilled light essence.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Alistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Yes to the first one.

Then you're terrible with light mechs.

Good light vs Good assault... light wins every time.

It's laughably sad.

Alistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Yes to the third one.

See above.

Alistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

The last one is false anyway, but I'm going to say yes, because it's remarkably easy to leg light mechs if you just bring enough lasers or UAC5s.

Unless they're piloted by someone that's ever used a light mech before...aka good light beats good assault every time.

Alistair Winter, on 05 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

That's a pretty nice crutch for people who don't have the aiming skills to leg those lights.

Unless they have ecm....or are near cover....or are behind you...or are sniping...

Oh right... this is just "see above" for a 3rd time.

FupDup, on 05 November 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

And yet here you are, asking for your very own insta-win button over EVERYTHING the moment you click an assault mech in your mechlab before a match.

Double standard is double.

Orly?

Quote where I said that I wanted assaults to be have small hit boxes and be able to go 140+ kph and be able to choose the range of engagement and to have every other mech be unable to stop me from insta-killing them by shooting them in an area that doesn't benefit from the one of the two advantages they're supposed to have while simultaneously making it impossible for them to use the other of the two advantages they're supposed to have b/c I'm behind them.

Oh wait... that would just be me asking for a light mech.

The whole "light mechs can be one shotted"... "argument" is moronic.

Light mechs have more armor on each of their components than assaults do on their backs...AND that's ignoring that AT BEST only 1/3 of light is actually a spot that will kill them...and the assaults insta-kill spot IS THE SIZE OF THE ENTIRE LIGHT MECH....... and it's not moving at 120+ kph while spamming jump jets.

So the assault has a spot 3 times larger....with 1/2 the armor on it....moving at a 1/3 of the speed.

What do they gain for it? An alpha twice as large....that they can shoot at best twice....that won't kill the light anyway even if both hit.

The only time it's not flat out EASIER to kill an assault than a light mech is if you're completely terrible.

And that's the point.

Good vs Good.... lights always win.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 05 November 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[1Grimbane]

yeah i'm sorry but lights are easy to kill if your not in a whale when they get behind you and your alone.... aside from that a high power alpha will leg them just fine or knock a side torso off (if you can aim)

Edited by 1Grimbane, 05 November 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[l33tworks]

Assaults are not useless but they are very hard and frustrating to play well. You really need the right set of of conditions and support from your team otherwise you get obliterated with little recourse.

I would not call them easy or simple to play, in fact I would say a long range light sniper with ECM is currently the easiest one click mode there is. Lights are easiest to play imo, yes they are hard to do "well" in terms of damage, but much more forgiving.


You either do really well in assaults or terribly, and the changes to the game are trending toward assaults being worse.
I actualy foresaw how assaults would play in MWO, I made a post about it before even any footage of MWO was released and I think i was pretty spot on.

I'll try dig up the post. xSNAKEx was my old account.

[l33tworks]

Blast from the past, March 2012

Keep in mind every time I say the word "Heavy" What I am reffering to is Assaults. I had not played MW title for a while and forgot the term Assault, so I had the impression of just a scale of light to Heavy in terms of the weight classes.

http://mwomercs.com/...n-this-release/

"In the past heavies have always been almost unbeatable by a light at 1 vs 1 combat, (yet skilled players still managed it agaisnt noobs). Skilled player vs skilled player meant a light would need 5-10 respawns before it took the heavy down once, and this only makes sense if you were to imagine anything close to a logical scenario, especially in a mech "Sim".

However, there some to be a modern trend in games of trying to balance the classes, no matter how bizzare it may seem (Its like asking a 18 Wheeler truck crashing into a Prius and expecting the car to win half the time),
This usually ends up with making the most logical outcome, which is a heavy almost certainly always beating a light, seem ironically the hardest to accomplish. I have seen it happen with many games in the past.


For example the devs become aware of the balance "issue" and player whining, and they take strong steps to really maim most inherent positives of a heavy trait, while simultaneously amplifying any inherent negatives.
So to speculate, not only do they make the heavy classless much slower, much harder to turn, etc which makes sense and as to be expected, but also, on the other hand they only have relatively little more health than the mediums or lights, and relatively little more firepower etc. So essentially the lighter classes can run rings around them and beat them quite easily!
On top of all this, from the videos I saw about the mech reactor going critical and exploding, I can see this being a balancing measure as well. Thus, say you are a heavy, whenever you kill a lighter faster mech in combat, unless you do it from what seems REALLY far away they end up taking you out as well from the explosion, and nullifying victory over them, even further making the heavy class even more pointless and painstaking to use.

So you end up with a game where the "heavy" or high firepower class is good for some “Oh Yea!..” style novelty fun, but is never really worth using in the grand scheme of things because instead of being a luxury it is a hinderance even in deathmatch, let alone other game modes

Which is a shame as we all know heavies are fat, slow, not good for in many regards, but they should be feared on the battlefield and have devastating effects (not laughed at which is what happens when devs try to balance something that should not be balanced.)

I wonder if this game will fall to this pressure and make it so that heavies can only dominate under very specific, niche scenarios. because people may complain about heavies being dominating not because it makes any sense but just because they don’t like loosing and they prefer playing with a quick light-mid range.

To sum up, devs please make sure heavies are still very feared. THIS IS THE SECRET HERB AND SPICE THAT MAKES MECHWARRIOIR FEEL SPECIAL. If all the classes get balanced out this fear element will be gone, and it will ultimately end up up feeling dull and uninspiring. The gameplay will turn out playing out like any other fps shooter but with mechs.
Think of how rare this fear element is to capture in a online multiplayer deathmatch game and try your best not to loose it, especially when Mechwarrioir naturally has this factor with the heavies! You take this away you're ripped the soul of the the genre.

Think of other countermeasures to stop everyone going heavy. For example make the mech slower to move. turn, overheat, make a faction for heavy class mech fans but they earn less exp when they get a kill compared to lighter classes, etc. In addition smaller Mechs will have to run and take pot shots or work in groups to beat a heavy but one can only annoy (they naturally gang up on heavies anyway), but whatever you do don’t reduce the heavies massive Armor and firepower to the point its no longer ridiculous."

[GreyNovember]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Then you're terrible with light mechs.

Good light vs Good assault... light wins every time.

It's laughably sad.

Are we playing the same game.

Full disclosure. What do you actually pilot? You sound like someone who drives low tier assaults and is convinced that somehow light mechs are the most powerful OP weight class to ever exist. That, or you're bad at playing Dires, and are discounting the times you've gone against a Commando.

Or a Raven 4X.

Or A Jenner that has less than 6E.

Or a Myst Lynx.

Or a Kit fox. Or an Adder.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

I think the team and pilot makes the big difference, not the mechs.

[FupDup]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Orly?

Quote where I said that I wanted assaults to be have small hit boxes and be able to go 140+ kph and be able to choose the range of engagement and to have every other mech be unable to stop me from insta-killing them by shooting them in an area that doesn't benefit from the one of the two advantages they're supposed to have while simultaneously making it impossible for them to use the other of the two advantages they're supposed to have b/c I'm behind them.

Oh wait... that would just be me asking for a light mech.

You didn't specify the exact means by which you want to obtain your insta-win button, but you did in fact say that you want a personal insta-win button.

There was a post made by somebody else in this thread, somebody other than you. The most important slice of it has been snipped and inserted below:

Random Carnage, on 05 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

-
The entire mechanic of lights being the foil for Assaults is stupid and artificial. The foil for an Assault mech should be another assault mech, or cooperation between two lighter mechs.
-

This post here wants assault mechs to always win against other mechs that aren't other assaults or a swarm of enemies. Later, you posted that you agree with that post:

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Pretty much this.

The whole "rock vs paper vs siccors (however that's spelled)" mentality is just guys wanting an insta-win button over whatever they're supposed to insta kill.

-

Ideally... if all you want to do is kill things... PLAY AN ASSAULT B/C THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.
-

So, you do in fact want your assaults to be superior than other mechs. You have stated it almost outright that you feel this way.

Edited by FupDup, 05 November 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[l33tworks]

I just went 1vs 1 against a Arctic cheetah with 6spl in a Dual PPC NOVA. Both fresh. The nova runs very cool and even though I missed only about 20% of the shots, I got obliterated by the AC with him almost being still fresh. Nothing I could do.

Makes sense though you have a bralwer light vs a sniper medium, however it does feel that the light class shoot way above their weight if you dont have the right setup to go up against a light, up to about Assault class even if both players are evenly matched.


if the Assaults pilot is even slightly not excellent at his shots he will loose to a light no question. The light pilots skill matters less, as shots are easier to place and not as important.

If you have the slightly lag the light will just run rings around you. they run do damn fast its next to impossible to hot them.

[Davers]

l33tworks, on 05 November 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

I just went 1vs 1 against a Arctic cheetah with 6spl in a Dual PPC NOVA. Both fresh. The nova runs very cool and even though I missed only about 20% of the shots, I got obliterated by the AC with him almost being still fresh. Nothing I could do.

Makes sense though you have a bralwer light vs a sniper medium, however it does feel that the light class shoot way above their weight if you dont have the right setup to go up against a light, up to about Assault class even if both players are evenly matched.


if the Assaults pilot is even slightly not excellent at his shots he will loose to a light no question. The light pilots skill matters less, as shots are easier to place and not as important.

If you have the slightly lag the light will just run rings around you. they run do damn fast its next to impossible to hot them.

Wouldn't you agree that a sniper mech (like a dual ERPPC Nova) should lose to a brawler mech when fighting at brawler ranges?

[Revis Volek]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Does being awesome at assaults remove-
Lights being fast enough to stay on your rear no matter what you do?
Lights being able to teleport through you if you trap them with your body or terrain?
Lights being fast enough to poke, destroy half your torso, or a third of your CT and get back into cover before you can even shoot?
Lights having enough armor to survive multiple alphas from an assault, even when hit head on stationary?


No?

Oh yeah, it's "working as intended"... where "intended" is for this game to cater to COD speed light mechs and arm lock enabled point and click matches.

I have never not been able to keep a light off my back....two lights different story but one light even in a DWF should be no problem for you if you hang your hat on being a fatty pilot.

I may not kill them every time, but they run off to go find easier targets 75% of the time. The main problem i see is people just dont know how to use reverse....they try to out walk the light in forward circles and that will never happen.

When a light tries to get behind you Stop walking, reverse, spin your legs the opposite way he is circling you and force it to run by the FRONT of your mech to get behind you again (Its during that time you take your shots) when he passes the front of the mech to then get behind you again...because you were swinging your legs around the opposite way... you should be able to SNAP your torso around and at the least turn your back away from him again and force the mech to keep circling.


Practice makes perfect.

Edited by DarthRevis, 05 November 2015 - 10:09 PM.

[Robinhood78]

I generally pilot light mechs and the very first thing I do if we are not in conquest mode is find the assualt lance. I rarely pilot assualts because I suck out loud at them and when I do I appreciate the support of anyone, especially the light escort til we meet up with the rest of the force. A couple lights can go scout, but the other two or at least one should go escort the slow movers. It is better for the whole team if the big boys don't get taken out early.

[Revis Volek]

l33tworks, on 05 November 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

I just went 1vs 1 against a Arctic cheetah with 6spl in a Dual PPC NOVA. Both fresh. The nova runs very cool and even though I missed only about 20% of the shots, I got obliterated by the AC with him almost being still fresh. Nothing I could do.

Makes sense though you have a bralwer light vs a sniper medium, however it does feel that the light class shoot way above their weight if you dont have the right setup to go up against a light, up to about Assault class even if both players are evenly matched.


if the Assaults pilot is even slightly not excellent at his shots he will loose to a light no question. The light pilots skill matters less, as shots are easier to place and not as important.

If you have the slightly lag the light will just run rings around you. they run do damn fast its next to impossible to hot them.

Anything dual ERPPC does not run cool....

Your story is over before it even started friend.

Edited by DarthRevis, 06 November 2015 - 12:03 AM.

[Xetelian]

My NVA doesn't quake in fear of a cheetah.
NVA-D(L)

Poke with the PPC and then if something wants to bully you in close range unload a 30 point alpha into a leg twice and its done.

People who don't bring backup weapons to deal with brawling deserve their funerals.


Assaults are hard to pilot, for a long time I was terrible and had a .42 K/D. I learned how to play and I've brought that .42 up to .78 and someday I will surpass 1.0 as I improve. A lot of firepower doesn't do you any good when you're slow and a light mech built for brawling can really screw your day up if you let them.

However unless I miss, I can put 70 damage down on the legs of a ACH in one shot.
DWF-PRIME
If it runs past me, dual gauss to the back is instant death more often than not.

Now if I brought Two PPCs along with that Gauss I would die to a light mech every time. Not just some of the time but every time. You build pure sniper you better not have to brawl.

The 'meta' of this game favors the fast, nascaring is a commonly understood phenomena and is the death of assaults that don't have above a 325+ engine in my experience and AS7 and DWFs are the slowest monsters out there and not even a 325 makes an AS7 fast enough to nascar and a BNC needs a 350 to be any good.

Some assaults have it hard and a lot of them are the innersphere assaults.

[Roadbuster]

Random Carnage, on 05 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

The entire mechanic of lights being the foil for Assaults is stupid and artificial. The foil for an Assault mech should be another assault mech, or cooperation between two lighter mechs. This would never result in everyone playing Assaults - as their play style just doesn't suit everyone. Having a light roll an Assault so easily is just wrong.

This.
A light mech which is confronted with an assault mech, should be scared and run instead of thinking "mmmmh sweet easy target".

There is little to fear from assault mechs these days. Atlas feels like a medium mech in terms of firepower and survivability.
Dires are still a threat, but only because they use loadouts which can shred other mechs in a matter of seconds.
If you see 1-2 light mechs comming for you though...

[1Grimbane]

Roadbuster, on 05 November 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

This.
A light mech which is confronted with an assault mech, should be scared and run instead of thinking "mmmmh sweet easy target".

There is little to fear from assault mechs these days. Atlas feels like a medium mech in terms of firepower and survivability.
Dires are still a threat, but only because they use loadouts which can shred other mechs in a matter of seconds.
If you see 1-2 light mechs coming for you though...

yeah it does seem backwards for lights to look at assaults as dinner.

[Alistair Winter]

The Atlas Overlord, on 05 November 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Then you're terrible with light mechs.

How rude.

If you want to put it to the test, we can always do some 1v1. It won't really settle our argument, because we can't really generalize our results to the whole population, but we can probably learn something none the less. Maybe I am indeed a terrible light mech pilot, in which case I would certainly need the practice.

[Random Carnage]

There is a lot of opinion flying around from people who apparently haven't played a Dire seriously. The opinion appears to be based on the perceptions of other mech pilots on what they perceive a Dire to be, rather than on having actually tried to survive in one over 1000 games or more and experienced the reality of being a Dire pilot in the current game state.

This talk of a Dires fire power is based on paper numbers. All dakka builds can be out gunned by laser boats up to 40 tonnes lighter. Even the "dreaded" 4UAC10 build that can theoretically double tap for 80 damage, assuming no jam's, will spread that damage over 12 individual rounds of 3.33 damage each. Unless you're point blank, and the red is not twisting, the impact is not as devastating as it sounds as the damage spreads across multiple locations. The 6UAC5 build is even worse. It can get some high damage numbers in game, but it's mostly spread over a lot of locations and not effective and punching through a single location to destroy it. Having the capacity to carry 50 tonnes of weapons is of no real benefit when we can't actually use more than an average heavy without shutting down.

"Just hit a lights legs". Mkay. How many of you have tried to track a light at speed with the Dires torso twist rate, and very poor twist angles? Add to this the travel time of AC rounds having to lead the target, and the hit reg issues, and unless a light runs right at you, you're just hoping for a lucky hit.

As for armour, we have to front load the CT to at least 108 to have any chance of surviving more than 2 seconds given how big and slow a target we present. This leaves what, about 16 points rear CT armour? Guess what - that doesn't go far when it gets hit. Dead Dire. If a 6sml laser Cheetah gets behind us, we're in big trouble. Their first alpha is free and cores out rear CT armour. Our torso twist can't reach them and by the time we begin to maneuver our legs around, they've unloaded a second and if necessary third burst. Chances of surviving such an encounter are slim if the red pilot knows what they're doing.

The KGC at least has the advantage of insane twist angles, and the option for bigger engines. I have one, and loved playing it for a long time after I parked by DDC as a lost cause. KGC was relatively successful. I traded up to a Dire due to the increased gun loadout. The Dire can drop a lot of damage in a short time, but it cannot sustain it more than a few seconds without over heating, and it takes so much return fire, that basically can't miss given that it's a mobile barn, that the KGC has better survival ability.

[Revis Volek]

Random Carnage, on 06 November 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

There is a lot of opinion flying around from people who apparently haven't played a Dire seriously. The opinion appears to be based on the perceptions of other mech pilots on what they perceive a Dire to be, rather than on having actually tried to survive in one over 1000 games or more and experienced the reality of being a Dire pilot in the current game state.

This talk of a Dires fire power is based on paper numbers. All dakka builds can be out gunned by laser boats up to 40 tonnes lighter. Even the "dreaded" 4UAC10 build that can theoretically double tap for 80 damage, assuming no jam's, will spread that damage over 12 individual rounds of 3.33 damage each. Unless you're point blank, and the red is not twisting, the impact is not as devastating as it sounds as the damage spreads across multiple locations. The 6UAC5 build is even worse. It can get some high damage numbers in game, but it's mostly spread over a lot of locations and not effective and punching through a single location to destroy it. Having the capacity to carry 50 tonnes of weapons is of no real benefit when we can't actually use more than an average heavy without shutting down.

"Just hit a lights legs". Mkay. How many of you have tried to track a light at speed with the Dires torso twist rate, and very poor twist angles? Add to this the travel time of AC rounds having to lead the target, and the hit reg issues, and unless a light runs right at you, you're just hoping for a lucky hit.

As for armour, we have to front load the CT to at least 108 to have any chance of surviving more than 2 seconds given how big and slow a target we present. This leaves what, about 16 points rear CT armour? Guess what - that doesn't go far when it gets hit. Dead Dire. If a 6sml laser Cheetah gets behind us, we're in big trouble. Their first alpha is free and cores out rear CT armour. Our torso twist can't reach them and by the time we begin to maneuver our legs around, they've unloaded a second and if necessary third burst. Chances of surviving such an encounter are slim if the red pilot knows what they're doing.

The KGC at least has the advantage of insane twist angles, and the option for bigger engines. I have one, and loved playing it for a long time after I parked by DDC as a lost cause. KGC was relatively successful. I traded up to a Dire due to the increased gun loadout. The Dire can drop a lot of damage in a short time, but it cannot sustain it more than a few seconds without over heating, and it takes so much return fire, that basically can't miss given that it's a mobile barn, that the KGC has better survival ability.

You make a mention of opinion....how is your post any different then anyone else? Because you claim you have over 1000 matches in a DWF? One trick pony much? lolz

Every thing here is anecdotal, if you would like to try this out though friend me and we can see how often i leg you in a DWF, its not hard and my unit makes a point of shooting legs in comp drops (like 85% of the comp community).

You make it sound like legging is hard as head shots...thats how you kill lights bro. Also, i dont use AC dires to kill lights....Gauss ERPPC combo with 3 backup Er meds lasers does the trick...every....freaking...time. AC dires are for spearheading pushes or being a shock mech with all that Dakka in the face.


16 pts of rear armor is double what i run on all my DWF's and i dont die to my back being cored very often. I dont know what wrong with you but 3 alphas from a ACH takes more then 4 seconds....i can 180 in a dwf in about 4-5 seconds. Why you cant is beyond me really....

I run KGC too and they are good but dont have the power a DWF has and i totally disagree they have more staying power. They get CT cored jsut as easy as DWF's and are HUGE targets if you are anywhere from 20 meter above it looking down. Like a landing zone on the top of a KGC...needs a H so the heli's know where to drop patients.


So once again....you anecdotal evidence vs mine.....lets fight it out and see who wins?