92 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Kjudoon, on 08 November 2015 - 02:58 AM, said:

Then perhaps you shouldn't try to shame anyone in a tier lower than you in this or any other thread I just read with you in it.

You stated you don't want fixes. You don't want smart, cautious gameplay. Fine, this shouldn't be the game for you then. If you don't want to play with anyone who doesn't play to the tier 1 standard, maybe you can ask PGI to lock the tiers so you never face anyone else not a Tier 1.

I've been arguing for COF just like you on this thread, so don't toss me aside as not wanting balance because I play to win. And yeah, I think locking tiers is a great idea. That's what my whole other post was about. This little quarreling of ours is a perfect example of why that needs to happen. People half way up the ladder just flat out shouldn't be competing against guys standing on the platform. I've followed you on plenty other posts and really love most of what you have to say. I'm more than willing to have an open minded debate. I just get a little blunt sometimes. But at least I'm always truthful.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Regarding the "power" thing that people keep resurrecting...

It's not supported by lore. Lore is that a mech's fusion engine can produce arbitrary amounts of power. The downside is heat spiking. That's why energy-intensive weapons are very hot - they ramp up the power draw which spikes the engine heat. In that respect, Ghost Heat is significantly closer to lore than an additional "power" mechanic would ever be, which should tell you something, since Ghost Heat is an abomination.

[adamts01]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 November 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Regarding the "power" thing that people keep resurrecting...

It's not supported by lore. Lore is that a mech's fusion engine can produce arbitrary amounts of power. The downside is heat spiking. That's why energy-intensive weapons are very hot - they ramp up the power draw which spikes the engine heat. In that respect, Ghost Heat is significantly closer to lore than an additional "power" mechanic would ever be, which should tell you something, since Ghost Heat is an abomination.

I love ghost heat. Lasers aren't OP, boating them is. The LLRaven was never a problem, the reasons I hate a lot of these solutions like "lock on for full range" is that it hurts that mech as much as my carry timber.

[Mystere]

Troutmonkey, on 07 November 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

http://www.qqmercs.c...ence-and-clans/

Well then, it's one of those ideas where I disagree with Homeless Bill. The player does not have to be "unmaneuverable" to be very effective -- especially if the convergence distance is player selected.

[Mystere]

WarZ, on 07 November 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

There is already a lot going on this game. You have to have significant awareness of multiple factors. Adding another complicated factor on top of all that is just more overload, that I personally think is not needed.

Convergence is not complicated on the player side.

WarZ, on 07 November 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

You have a cursor for your torso and arms already. That is plenty. Place a particular cursor on something you want to shoot and firing is satisfying, and not frustrating and / or annoying. IMO, it needs to be simple like that to balance out all the other battle awareness you need to keep up as it is. When you aim at something you want your fire to go there.

It is one of the shining bright spots in combat.

But convergence does not invalidate the "hit were you aim" quality that people like. As such ...

WarZ, on 07 November 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

However, with convergence thats getting very close to CoF type mechanics. I absolutely hate RNG based CoF mechanics in anything you are trying to be even slightly PvP in.

I do not understand where people get the idea that convergence is like CoF. They're not even close. There is no probability involved. It's deterministic.

WarZ, on 07 November 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

Are you telling me, that there is no other way to address alpha's besides convergence ? How about weapon stat tweaks, which are rarely done, but have so much potential ? Maybe even a new mechanic to pair with heat, called "power requirement".

It is a solution that directly addresses the problem.

[Kjudoon]

adamts01, on 08 November 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

I've been arguing for COF just like you on this thread, so don't toss me aside as not wanting balance because I play to win. And yeah, I think locking tiers is a great idea. That's what my whole other post was about. This little quarreling of ours is a perfect example of why that needs to happen. People half way up the ladder just flat out shouldn't be competing against guys standing on the platform. I've followed you on plenty other posts and really love most of what you have to say. I'm more than willing to have an open minded debate. I just get a little blunt sometimes. But at least I'm always truthful.

Then I apologize for being hasty. I sometimes go a little too 'bulldog' on things. It is good to see we are coming to the same point just from obtuse angles from each other, hence where the friction I think came up from.

Sincerely, I apologize.

Edited by Kjudoon, 08 November 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

I love how over the years the pro convergence crowd has had tons of evidence, charts. graphs, videos, complex spreadsheets, and altered files showing how it could be done...

And the total sum of the anti convergence crowd's complaints are essentially just "Wut I think" "I dont like it" "I like my point n click adventure"

[adamts01]

Kraftwerkedup, on 08 November 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

I love how over the years the pro convergence crowd has had tons of evidence, charts. graphs, videos, complex spreadsheets, and altered files showing how it could be done...

And the total sum of the anti convergence crowd's complaints are essentially just "Wut I think" "I dont like it" "I like my point n click adventure"

My favorite is when you say COF only applies to 4+ grouped weapons and that can be negated with targeting or eliminated with chain fire, then they read "shooting the guy behind you because accuracy is so bad, I'll refund all my packages."

[Troutmonkey]

Mystere, on 08 November 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

Convergence is not complicated on the player side.

It really is. You now have to add two extra controls and additional UI elements to tell the player where that fixed convergence point is - even if they can adjust it.

If you think the learning curve is high now just wait until players attempt to shoot at a target but all their shots fly off at 45 degrees to the sides because they somehow set the convergence point 200m in front of them. It's an absolute mess of an idea in practice and is completely impractical in a real time shooter. It would be an absolute disaster to watch with players randomly shooting off sideways and lights being impossible to hit as players won't be able to manually adjust convergence quickly enough. At the same token, lights won't be able to hit anything unless they boat point blank weapons that don't diverge.

Cone of Fire (CoF) however, is a widely understood concept and is present in pretty much every shooter in the form of recoil. New players will probably fire all their weapons at once, see the spread, then fire a few weapons, notice a lack of spread, and then naturally learn not to shoot every weapon at once all the time. It's far better than ghost heat and leagues better than any fixed convergence idea.

[Mystere]

Troutmonkey, on 08 November 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

It really is. You now have to add two extra controls and additional UI elements to tell the player where that fixed convergence point is - even if they can adjust it.

If you think the learning curve is high now just wait until players attempt to shoot at a target but all their shots fly off at 45 degrees to the sides because they somehow set the convergence point 200m in front of them. It's an absolute mess of an idea in practice and is completely impractical in a real time shooter. It would be an absolute disaster to watch with players randomly shooting off sideways and lights being impossible to hit as players won't be able to manually adjust convergence quickly enough. At the same token, lights won't be able to hit anything unless they boat point blank weapons that don't diverge.

Huh? Anyone who decides to manually adjust convergence as they are firing has much bigger problems.

And by the way, a Mech has to be really wide if shots are firing at 45 degrees with 200m convergence.

Troutmonkey, on 08 November 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Cone of Fire (CoF) however, is a widely understood concept and is present in pretty much every shooter in the form of recoil. New players will probably fire all their weapons at once, see the spread, then fire a few weapons, notice a lack of spread, and then naturally learn not to shoot every weapon at once all the time. It's far better than ghost heat and leagues better than any fixed convergence idea.

We all know how some sections of this player base abhor anything that hints of "random" -- whether they actually understand the concept or not. As such, good luck with that.

Fixed convergence, on the other hand, just requires very rudimentary knowledge of angles/triangles.

Or am I asking too much from the player base, especially considering that Skirmish is the most favorite game mode?

Edited by Mystere, 08 November 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

A convergence tool would be ideal. Absolutely ideal and would prefer it to CoF, without question.

However the current word from PGI is that fixed convergence is what they need to make hitreg work. They can't muck with it. If that's the case then CoF is a good 2nd choice.

One can work with convergence using fixed points without a problem. You just make the fixed point being "range whatever is under the crosshairs" go away and change it to a binary system. Default and locked (or targeting data gathered).

MWO can handle your weapons swapping from the building 1000m behind your target to your target as far as convergence is concerned as it is. This means it could equally deal with a "default" long-distance convergence to a sensor-locked target range without difficulty and instantly.

We don't need to kill alphas. We need to kill easily generated instant perfect alphas the second your guns have the crosshair covering the target profile.

We don't need randomfire from a cone of fire. Even a convergence set to long distances is predictably spread- your guns will go where you aim them, in the pattern your mounts create, and a locked target will produce hits like we have now.

You just won't be able to peek over a hill, snapshot your pulse lasers all into the same spot without visible effort, and duck down before there's so much as a dorito. You won't be able to perfect-core-snapshot a target that's barely visible in your crosshairs and out of sensor range- though in both cases you'll know where your guns will go when you fire them.

They'll follow the same path, every time given the same range-to-target. They just won't all converge into a single spot without a lock. Do that, and you've neutered the worst problems with mass weapon fire in MWO and not touched the skill-based portion of "you aim, you hit".

[Troutmonkey]

Mystere, on 08 November 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Huh? Anyone who decides to manually adjust convergence as they are firing has much bigger problems. And by the way, a Mech has to be really wide if shots are firing at 45 degrees with 200m convergence. :

I manage to pull this off all the time with my King Crab. Trying to shoot and something gets in front of your cursor and messes with auto convergence and suddenly my LB10X shots are spraying all over the walls to my left and right :S

[oldradagast]

Ohmlink, on 08 November 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

The COF wouldn't have to be very large to actually make a difference. A COF the size of the circle you aim with would probably be a pretty good base line for about how big it needs to be when your firing a group of weapons. I do think a single weapon should go exactly where you aim if all circumstances are ideal (not running, high heat, ect.)

Exactly. So many people imagining a copy-paste of the huge jump-jet cone of fire, or thinking that we want to turn this game into World of Warships (a fine game, but the cone of fire there is big because of what the game is simulating.) A small cone of fire is all that is needed to end the stupid, long range, pinpoint alpha meta that has dominated this game for a year or two already. Convergence fixes could also work, but PGI seems very reluctant to touch convergence. Cone of fire at least already exists here and there in the game (jump-jets, MASC, machine guns) so it is not a stretch to implement in other needed places.