92 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

oldradagast, on 07 November 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

No, he created a bunch of strawman arguments against convergence and cone of fire, and used them to "prove" how "bad" they are. I'm very tired of everyone assuming cone of fire means "it's going to work exactly like this one other game that has super-random shot scatter, and I hate that game, so it'll never work."

It's not a straw-man if that's one way it can actually operate any more than you saying it will work another way is also a straw-man. It just means he's thinking through a problem. As you think through a problem, you don't always catch everything, which is why we need others (like yourself) to present an alternative view.

So, like, relax man...

[nocturne]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

Either the CoF is big enough to matter, or the high-alpha problem will just move to closer ranges.

I think that's perfectly fair. If you are in brawling range, well alpha's gunna happen.. but now we get back to making brawlers legit.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

All you are solving that way is reducing effectiveness of the long range huge alphas. Which is absolutely needed, but does very little to help at lower ranges.
Either the CoF is big enough to matter, or the high-alpha problem will just move to closer ranges.

And that actually makes sense from a battletech perspective.

Close range fire, rarely misses in battletech. As is you have 3[4 in the advanced rules] range brackets. Short, medium, long, and extreme if advanced rules are used.

Close Range suffers 0 gunnery skill modifers, but you're still affected by movement modifiers. We know players some times whiff shots in MWO at close ranges [see it all the time.] so there's the movement modifiers in work already, The dice roles in Tabletop simulate luck, so there's those at work already. So what's left is the gunnery modifier. Which could be handled by a CoF mechanic and corrosponding pilots skill to help "shrink" the cone a bit.

Yes, there's always going to be problems with these systems, there's always going to be someone complaining... but at least, people are trying to bring solutions, instead of just yelling at the wall.

[Kjudoon]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 November 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

It's not a straw-man if that's one way it can actually operate any more than you saying it will work another way is also a straw-man. It just means he's thinking through a problem. As you think through a problem, you don't always catch everything, which is why we need others (like yourself) to present an alternative view.

So, like, relax man...

A strawman that someone believes in is still a straw man. To quote Joe Biden "You have the right to your own opinion, but not your own facts." Yes, Biden said something (or plagerized it as his history shows) very smart.

Otherwise yes, you're right on target on people viewing a problem missing essential elements, but not all missing information is as relevant as someone may want it to be.

Edited by Kjudoon, 07 November 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[WarZ]

Quite simply put - I would NEVER play another cone of fire competitive shooter. EVER.

If the devs ever seriously considered such nonsense, that would be my last day.

They have much better options they can pursue. They barely ever play with weapon stats. Those alone could do a LOT.

They could also add a power requirement for each weapon. Thereby creating a control layer that could better limit alphas.

Do not ever give us the horrid **** that is CoF.

Edited by WarZ, 07 November 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[wolf74]

So remove the Auto part of Auto Convergence, and make it Manual Controled Convergence.


AKA You the Player Picks the Range your weapon Converge at, Your skill in controlling when to fire for Maxium Effect. No Random No Auto-Computer Aiming the convergence point for you. So only your Skill in controlling the Convergence Point.

[Kjudoon]

wolf74, on 07 November 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

So remove the Auto part of Auto Convergence, and make it Manual Controled Convergence.


AKA You the Player Picks the Range your weapon Converge at, Your skill in controlling when to fire for Maxium Effect. No Random No Auto-Computer Aiming the convergence point for you. So only your Skill in controlling the Convergence Point.

I believe he's saying he will not accept any randomness or simulation and wants/needs his crutches.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I hate the idea of shots not going where I'm aiming at. Whats the point of aim anymore if shots still just randomly fly off to different directions?

I love MWO simply because its one of the few games anymore that doesn't have some random cone of fire or even recoil. It rewards accuracy.

I'd expect that with all the technology on a mech there is no reason for it to not be able to automatically converge to exactly what you are aiming at near instantly. I'd also expect that there are recoil dampeners in the weapons themselves and other things to keep them accurately aiming at a target.

As for manually controlled convergence... really, pressing R was too "convoluted" last time, actually having to do a mildly complex task would definitely be much worse.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Ah, the beauty of arbitrary, reactionary ultimatums. The ultimate form of persuasion.

The counter is the same thing every parent ever has said to their kids: try it, you might like it.

Besides, done correctly, it wouldn't even have to be a Cone of Fire like you see in most FPS games, weather in degree or in kind. I've always been a proponent of Precision Reduction rather than randomization, since it'd be predictable and able for truly skilled players to compensate for. That said, a random mechanic isn't terrible per se so long as the degree of randomization is in the hands of the player, making for a risk/reward dynamic, and at this point it looks like the best, fastest, and easiest partial fix for many of the balance problems plaguing MWO.

[Matthew Ace]

Flash Frame, on 07 November 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

Close range fire, rarely misses in battletech. As is you have 3[4 in the advanced rules] range brackets. Short, medium, long, and extreme if advanced rules are used.

5, actually. LOS range.

[Lostdragon]

Dakota1000, on 07 November 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I hate the idea of shots not going where I'm aiming at. Whats the point of aim anymore if shots still just randomly fly off to different directions?

I love MWO simply because its one of the few games anymore that doesn't have some random cone of fire or even recoil. It rewards accuracy.

I'd expect that with all the technology on a mech there is no reason for it to not be able to automatically converge to exactly what you are aiming at near instantly. I'd also expect that there are recoil dampeners in the weapons themselves and other things to keep them accurately aiming at a target.

As for manually controlled convergence... really, pressing R was too "convoluted" last time, actually having to do a mildly complex task would definitely be much worse.

The Inner Sphere has been nuking itself back into the stone age for hundreds of years. Comstar has been actively working to suppress technology for over two centuries and the Clan societal structure inhibits innovation in many ways. In lore the mechwarrior doesn't really aim, he tells his mech to shoot at something and it does its best to hit it, but there are many factors that impact accuracy and there is no such thing as perfect convergence.

[Mystere]

Dakota1000, on 07 November 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I hate the idea of shots not going where I'm aiming at. Whats the point of aim anymore if shots still just randomly fly off to different directions?

Here is random for you.

Also, do you know the difference between a gaussian and an even distribution?

Edited by Mystere, 07 November 2015 - 07:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Hello Mechwarriors,
There is a lot of discussing in the forums about using convergence and/or CoF to solve the High-Alpha problem in MWO.
In this thread, i'll try to point out the problems with these ideas, hoping to either find solutions to them.
Let's start:

Convergence
The idea of fixed convergence has been in the forums since forever. The basic idea is that every weapon shoots at a fixed point, rather than at the center of the crosshair.
There are two main problems with this idea:

• Technical problems: it has been pointed out often that the engine MWO runs on is not optimized to register dozens of weapons shooting together, each one at a different spot. It might be that MWO is particularly complex, or that the engineers that first worked on the engine cut some corners and now things are what they are. Either way, PGI would have to pour a lot of resources in this system.
  
• Hardpoit problem: let's say PGI manages to get the hit-reg working on fixed convergence. Now there is a new problem: we did nothing about the high alphas. They are still there: they will just be moved to mechs with either most weapons in the arms (if arms have perfect convergence) or with weapons clumped together in 1-2 components. TTK will not change: the meta will just shift to mechs that have the perfect hardpoint distribution.

CoF
The CoF mechanic has many possible iterations: the basic idea is that weapons converge on a semi-random point, whose distance from the center of the crosshair is based on movement, heat, tonnage, etc.
Problems are:

• Camp-warrior: if the CoF is tied to movement, we find ourselves with an advantage given to immobile mechs. If you are standing still, you have a better CoF than a moving mech, which gives you a HUGE advantage. Moreover, high alphas are still there: say hello to matches where you walk around the corner and find you opponents perfectly still, in a fireing line, and prepare to eat countless 40+ damage alphas. You want to shoot back? Too bad, your CoF is still wide, and your shots will miss. Unless of course you want to stand still in the open to get your CoF to narrow down.
  
• Randomness: let's say the first problem finds a solution, and people don't start standing still to shoot. There are two mechs brawling: mech 1 shoots, misses by a mile or hits a non vital component. Mech 2 shoots... headshot. GG. It can happen. And it WILL happen. To avoid this, we need a mechanic to be able to narrow down the CoF... but how? Speed is out of the question (look at problem number 1)... time on target? That means that you will have to stare down opponents, meaning that DPS builds will rule (while you are aiming, they are tearing you apart). And even if you find an intresting way to get people to narrow down their CoF without staring at the opponent or standing still, you still have huge alphas patiently waiting for the moment in which CoF is the narrowest.

You could of course use both CoF and Convergence, but that dosen't fix thier problems, which need to be resolved first.




My opinion is that we should first fix the Heat-scale to curb super-alphas, and then add one or both of CoF and Convergence (after, of course, we find a way to fix their problems), but you know what is said about opinions...

A heat scale that slows you and adds slightly to a CoF affect is great. CoF from shooting on the move (though there should be a module for this to reduce it. Especially for lights you need to be able to shoot on the move) is also good. Tying CoF to number of weapons fired within 0.5 sec is also good. Tying it to all 3, as Levi said, is ideal.

Immobile mechs may be more accurate but they are also easier to shoot. That issue, the 'camp warrior' issue, will largely fix itself. Camping is a strategy generally doomed to failure. The point being to create a balance between having 2 MLs (at only 2 tons) and 1 LL (at 5 tons) and the 2 MLs do more damage and fire more quickly. If you create convergence driven effects that favor fewer, higher damage weapons you have just helped resolve the issues we created 'Ghost Heat' to fix.

These are excellent ideas. My concern is that they are not going to be easy to implement and if we do what we'll see are crying, sobbing masses about 'Ghost Accuracy' and 'Ghost Speed' and whatever else you can put 'Ghost' on to try and belittle it when you don't actually have a legitimate objection to the mechanic itself other than 'it's not exactly what we already have'.

I feel a good option would be to sell these ideas and the benefits of them to PGI and then have them just implement it and expect a number of people to leave and hope we make that up with more people who want a more complex and challenging FPS environment - something that, in its way, is a bit more representative of the source material without trying to replicate all its faults.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 07 November 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I hate the idea of shots not going where I'm aiming at. Whats the point of aim anymore if shots still just randomly fly off to different directions?

I love MWO simply because its one of the few games anymore that doesn't have some random cone of fire or even recoil. It rewards accuracy.

I'd expect that with all the technology on a mech there is no reason for it to not be able to automatically converge to exactly what you are aiming at near instantly. I'd also expect that there are recoil dampeners in the weapons themselves and other things to keep them accurately aiming at a target.

As for manually controlled convergence... really, pressing R was too "convoluted" last time, actually having to do a mildly complex task would definitely be much worse.

I've got to ask... have you ever shot a gun? Nerf gun even? Pellet gun? Thrown a baseball? A rock even?

You know what the big differences is with a CoF affect? You can actually reasonably predict how much you're going to miss by. That's the only difference.

It's a solid mechanic and I'd love it more than damage falloff option but we've had some pretty clear indications that PGI is not fond of the convergence thing or CoF.

Maybe that can be changed. There's a group of people who will object to anything that isn't exactly what we already have just a few different stats (like that really changes anything) and it may be that's all we will ever get (ZOMG HIT R 2 HURD! THIS 1 TIME IN BAND CAMP I HIT R IT LOCK WRONG GUI SO I DIED). If we want a more engaging, more complex game it's going to be a tough sell and it's going to involve compromise.

So the real questions become...

Do we want Information Warfare to actually be in the game?

Do we want the potential for role warfare?

Do we want a game that's going to be more involved in the combat aspect than a standard shooter? If so, how much? How much complexity are we willing to put in?

That's a tough set to get consensus of any sort on. We're talking about putting stuff into the game that was pitched in Closed Beta and then abandoned. It's going to change a lot and change how we play. Is that really what we want?

[wolf74]

Kjudoon, on 07 November 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

I believe he's saying he will not accept any randomness or simulation and wants/needs his crutches.

Incorrect, I was offering a 3rd option to Randomness that many other dislike, but would give Almost the Same Effect as COF without random and reward those who wait for the correct time to fire with the skill to control the Convergence point. Right now the Convergence point is controlled by the Computer not the Player and is Always Perfect range to what under the Crosshair. If the Player has to control the Convergence point this will dramatically changes game play over all.

[MischiefSC]

wolf74, on 07 November 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

Incorrect, I was offering a 3rd option to Randomness that many other dislike, but would give Almost the Same Effect as COF without random and reward those who wait for the correct time to fire with the skill to control the Convergence point. Right now the Convergence point is controlled by the Computer not the Player and is Always Perfect range to what under the Crosshair. If the Player has to control the Convergence point this will dramatically changes game play over all.

A convergence tool would be ideal. Absolutely ideal and would prefer it to CoF, without question.

However the current word from PGI is that fixed convergence is what they need to make hitreg work. They can't muck with it. If that's the case then CoF is a good 2nd choice.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

However the current word from PGI is that fixed convergence is what they need to make hitreg work. They can't muck with it. If that's the case then CoF is a good 2nd choice.

I'm going to ask for a reference to this, as it has gotten me pretty much excited.

[WarZ]

Mystere, on 07 November 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

I'm going to ask for a reference to this, as it has gotten me pretty much excited.

Unlikely as they stated they are reworking the skill trees, and the convergence skill is going to be replaced. Besides I highly doubt they'd even consider convergence at this point. Thankfully.

[Troutmonkey]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Fixed convergence is a terrible idea.
CoF based on movement is a terrible idea
CoF all the time is a terrible idea.

CoF based on what you are shooting down range is a good idea.
Shooting off ~20+ points of damage at once should incur a penalty to accuracy. The more you shoot, the worse the spread becomes.

http://mwomercs.com/...of-convergence/

Troutmonkey, on 05 October 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

Want to solve the TTK issue?
Want to stop laser vomit?
Want to encourage mixed load outs?

Solution: Firing ~20 or more points of damage withing ~.5 seconds causes temporary reticule bloom and loss of pinpoint convergence. The more you fire over the limit, the worse the spread becomes.

Want to fire all your weapons at once? Sure! Just don't expect to everything to hit the same location.

Want all your shots to hit where you aim? Great, just exercise fire control and either chain fire or group weapons into smaller Alphas.

Now the more complex part is decoupling the spread from damage, and replacing it with another limit which can be called CPU.

• Each mech will have a CPU limit.
  
  • The limit can universal or be changed per mech to allow for higher / lower alphas before loss of accuracy.
    
  • Equipment such as the Command Console and Targeting computer could increase the CPU limit
• Each mech with dissipate (process) X CPU/Second.
  
  • The limit can universal or be changed per mech to allow for longer / shorter periods of sustained fire.
• Each weapon will use X CPU each time it fires.
  
  • Initially weapons will balance around 1 DMG = 1 CPU requirement, but weapons like MGs, SRMs and LB10X will use much less because they already spread damage.

Reticule bloom is a completely intuitive system that players would instantly understand if they've played any other shooter, and would help to reduce the massive alpha strikes that are present in the game. TTK would be reduced as damage would be spread, meaning that poking out from behind cover for 1 second wouldn't result in 60+ points of damage instantly coring you out - instead your opponents would have to either fire less weapons or risk spreading it all over your mech.


Given that reticule bloom is readily understandable and that CPU is "processed" quickly, it wouldn't require a an in game UI element outside of the reticule size increasing. If a system like this was put in place, ghost heat could be removed completely. Unlike Ghost Heat, this system can't be circumvented by mixing and matching weapon groups.

I know ideas like this have been suggested before in various forms, as my suggestion is nearly a complete knock off of Homeless Bill's comprehensive balance post from 2013 (before Ghost Heat was a thing). However I think now it's more relevant now than ever before, and really needs to be considered again. With the test server actually being used, it's now possible to test such a drastic idea before it ever goes live.

This system will promote skill in consistent aiming and weapons discipline. A duel between two players will no longer be decided by who has the highest alpha, but by the player who can exercise the most fire control and accuracy. I know people are bound to jump up and down about RNG and dice rolls or something, but I honestly believe a system like this is something that MWO desperately needs.

So what do you guys think?

[Mystere]

WarZ, on 07 November 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

Unlikely as they stated they are reworking the skill trees, and the convergence skill is going to be replaced. Besides I highly doubt they'd even consider convergence at this point. Thankfully.

I was referring to a statement from PGI that was implied in MischiefSC's post.

As for your "Thankfully" comment, why would you not want such a mechanic?