92 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

sounds about like what I have been saying for about 3 years.

Of note, under say, 75% throttle, etc, one should have no CoF at all (unless heat or other circumstance requires it), though reticle sway should still be a thing. I am not so much a believer that massed weapon fire itself should cause CoF, but a lot of things, like Missiles, Ballistics and PPCs should all have varying degrees of recoil impulse.

Part of the problem is keeping the mechanic relatively simple and predictable. Individualized recoil values (reverse Impulse, perhaps?) would start to get very complicated very quickly. Generalizing and simplifying into a precision deviation/cone of fire mechanic isn't perfect by any means, but it should be workable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 07 November 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

Part of the problem is keeping the mechanic relatively simple and predictable. Individualized recoil values (reverse Impulse, perhaps?) would start to get very complicated very quickly. Generalizing and simplifying into a precision deviation/cone of fire mechanic isn't perfect by any means, but it should be workable.

True.


Though the real obstacle is the church of skill tryhards who wail like schoolgirls being separated form their iphones if you do anything to their aiming for idiots click a pixel aiming mechanic.

[ChronoBear]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 07 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

</p>
Apply the penalty as a % of max throttle, not based on absolute speed. To do otherwise nerfs the crap out of speed, making super-slow Assaults king and turning Lights into a joke. Making it % based keeps speed and engine rating as very important upgrades. .

Lights do not and should not get the benefit (double dip) PGI would need to determine the Walk/Run speeds and give modifiers appropriately. Assaults are supposed to be feared... that's the point... they are weapons platforms of death that are slow and easy to hit...

The below is taken from a PDF of the actual rules set for battletech
Attacker
Stationary None
Walked +1
Ran +2
Jumped +3

Edited by ChronoBear, 07 November 2015 - 08:28 AM.

[Mystere]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Technical problems: it has been pointed out often that the engine MWO runs on is not optimized to register dozens of weapons shooting together, each one at a different spot. It might be that MWO is particularly complex, or that the engineers that first worked on the engine cut some corners and now things are what they are. Either way, PGI would have to pour a lot of resources in this system.

Here's a thought. What happens today if after pulling the trigger to fire at a target someone else steps into your line of fire?

Mechanics-wise, how does that differ from fixed convergence?

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Hardpoit problem: let's say PGI manages to get the hit-reg working on fixed convergence. Now there is a new problem: we did nothing about the high alphas. They are still there: they will just be moved to mechs with either most weapons in the arms (if arms have perfect convergence) or with weapons clumped together in 1-2 components. TTK will not change: the meta will just shift to mechs that have the perfect hardpoint distribution.

You are correct.

People will now be even more selective in placing their weapons. But then again, skilled/experienced players will know which parts to shoot off. I'm perfectly fine with that.

[Bishop Steiner]

ChronoBear, on 07 November 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Lights do not and should not get the benefit (double dip) PGI would need to determine the Walk/Run speeds and give modifiers appropriately. Assaults are supposed to be feared... thats the point... they are weapons platforms of death that are slow and easy to hit...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The below is taken from a PDF of the actual rules set for battletech</p>
<p>Attacker</p>
<div data-canvas-width="223.26000000000002" style="left: 211.028px; top: 283.845px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(0.938067);">Movement (Modifiers are cumulative)</div>
<div data-canvas-width="33.93" style="left: 451.028px; top: 301.845px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(0.997941);">Stationary None</div>
<div data-canvas-width="16.635" style="left: 451.028px; top: 319.845px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(0.978529);">Walked +1</div>
<div data-canvas-width="16.635" style="left: 451.028px; top: 337.845px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(0.978529);">Ran +2</div>
<div data-canvas-width="16.635" style="left: 451.028px; top: 355.845px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(0.978529);">Jumped +3</div>
<div data-canvas-width="99.79499999999999" style="left: 151.028px; top: 373.845px; font-size: 15px; font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(0.867783);">Prone +2</div>

dude...if you want anyone to know what you are trying to say, clean this thing up........
wowzer!

When you right click, "paste as plain text" is your friend!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 November 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[ChronoBear]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

dude...if you want anyone to know what you are trying to say, clean this thing up........
wowzer!

When you right click, "paste as plain text" is your friend!

I don't know what happened there but thank god you were there to correct me...

[Bishop Steiner]

ChronoBear, on 07 November 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

I don't know what happened there but thank god you were there to correct me...

I don't know what happened, and was not "trying to correct you" but your post was illegible, and thus, your point, which I can now read, and is valid, was lost.

A lot of people don't seem to know about "paste as plain text" on these forums and thus, it was meant to be helpful suggestion.

If you are going to get all thin skinned about it, dude, the internet is not the place for you.

[ChronoBear]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

I don't know what happened, and was not "trying to correct you" but your post was illegible, and thus, your point, which I can now read, and is valid, was lost.

A lot of people don't seem to know about "paste as plain text" on these forums and thus, it was meant to be helpful suggestion.

If you are going to get all thin skinned about it, dude, the internet is not the place for you.

I noticed my post was jacked and was editing it as soon as I saw it in the actual post.

I copied (ctrl C) to a notepad (which I usually do at work and I am at work ;( ) then cntl C and cntl v into the post thinking the stripped formatting paste would be fine. So that was kinda weird that I got all that formatting junk.

I promise scouts honor, I'm rather thick skinned

Lastly on point - The original BT rules are rather easy to implement into this game. They even have the speeds worked out for what walking and running is ( a mech that walks 3 (xxkph) runs 5 (xxkph).

Couldn't they just assign cross-hair shake or a COF based off walking and running ... just like the table top?

[SirLANsalot]

The issue with CoF is it brings RNG into the game and if you want to have a competitive scene in this game, you need leave as little as possible to chance. Take League of Legends for example, there is only one game mechanic that is RNG (crits) the rest of the game is all about teamwork and pure SKILL. This is why both of these ideas people have been spitting out (Convergence and CoF) are both very bad.

What we have right now is a pure SKILL game, meaning if you are a better shot then your opponent then you will win the trade/fight. CoF gets rid of skill, or at the very least, trades skill for randomness. Did that mech just use JJ's and just gaussed your CT from 800m away? That isn't skill buddy, but RNG. We have CoF right now with JJ's and its effing stupid (for lights and mediums) because people bitched about "poptarts". Which, I might remind you all, were starting to die out LONG before the JJ changes came because people were figuring out how to beat and counter them.
Also....do remember your mech has a GYRO on it, something that stabilizes your mech AND the weapons during movement, plus a targeting computer that helps you (the pilot) target and manage the weapons. If you are a ****** pilot, no amount of RNG is going to save you from death.


As for the "but CoF and Recoil would stop high alphas". That is complete BS, why we have high alphas still is because we are using TT values for our mechs armor (even if it is doubled). As I have stated many times for those who remember, to fix high alpha you need to make it not worth while to have. Increasing the durability of mechs goes a long way to killing off alpha.

So ya, TL:DR shut up and learn to get good son, CoF/Convergence/Recoil isn't going to do anything to save your sorry ass from getting blowed up.

[Bishop Steiner]

ChronoBear, on 07 November 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

I noticed my post was jacked and was editing it as soon as I saw it in the actual post.

I copied (ctrl C) to a notepad (which I usually do at work and I am at work ;( ) then cntl C and cntl v into the post thinking the stripped formatting paste would be fine. So that was kinda weird that I got all that formatting junk.

I promise scouts honor, I'm rather thick skinned

Lastly on point - The original BT rules are rather easy to implement into this game. They even have the speeds worked out for what walking and running is ( a mech that walks 3 (xxkph) runs 5 (xxkph).

Couldn't they just assign cross-hair shake or a COF based off walking and running ... just like the table top?

They could. The issue is not the mechanical capability, but that Russ is dead set against any type of CoF (even though they inexplicably put one on MGs), and the CompTryhard contingent shouts rather loudly at any mention of anything that hampers their "raw,unadulterated skill".

Myself, I would like just a basic reticle sway, that gets a little more pronounced, till about 2/3 up the throttle, then add a scaling CoF to it when you get above that, but one that would still keep the vast majority of shots on target at long range. (I say vast majority, because if you try to take a head shot, running, at 1000km, yeah, you might just miss)

Similarly have a fuzzing out, intermittent HUD (we used to have that in CB) and CoF effect, again, scaling, starting at about 50% heat.

Likewise, have a very minor CoF that starts after a weapons optimal range (which is called optimal for a reason)

And lastly, anytime JJs are engaged, and for about a full second after thrust is cut, reticle shake, that tapers off after thrust is cut.

Of course, it isn't real skill to learn to overcome these variables, because tankers, pilots, snipers, etc, IRL don't have near the actual skill of your videogame overlords.

But then, I might have mentioned, I really would have preferred this to be the SimLite it was supposed to be.

The biggest mistake PGI ever made (even the choice of Engine was motivated by what they could afford) was getting the notion to suddenly build this into a FPS for Casuals, with delusions of Esportdom.

SirLANsalot, on 07 November 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

pure SKILL.

no offense, but most gamers really don't know what that term means. Pure, real skill is overcoming the variables you can't control.

Also, pretty much EVERY other FPS, comp or not, has a CoF mechanic in it.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

ChronoBear, on 07 November 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Lights do not and should not get the benefit (double dip) PGI would need to determine the Walk/Run speeds and give modifiers appropriately. Assaults are supposed to be feared... that's the point... they are weapons platforms of death that are slow and easy to hit...

The below is taken from a PDF of the actual rules set for battletech
Attacker
Stationary None
Walked +1
Ran +2
Jumped +3

How is what I suggested "double dipping" for lights? What you're suggesting is essentially a less refined version of what I am. TT has two hard thresholds - Walking and Running, set at specific throttle percentages. I am suggesting a scaling, linear progression, something that the TT couldn't do, but that a computer game should be able to handle easily.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 07 November 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[TheCharlatan]

Let me sum up what has been said till now about CoF (i hope someone at PGI will read and think about this):

• CoF could be brought as a way to reduce high alpha effectiveness at long ranges, in this way making CQC more viable. To make CoF balanced, it needs to be very small in size, and defined by a sum of heat, speed, tonnage and number of used weapons (this last one i'm not sure about, looks like ghost heat to me, but it's on the table). The randomness is minimal in this iteration of CoF (unless you really like running at full speed while at 90% heat in an assault, and even then you will probably just hit the wrong component).

This looks like a pretty nice mechanic, that should be introduced in the game.
However, this mechanic does almost nothing for TTK.

Mystere, on 07 November 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

Here's a thought. What happens today if after pulling the trigger to fire at a target someone else steps into your line of fire?

Mechanics-wise, how does that differ from fixed convergence?

Yes, the system CAN do it. But that does not mean that it does it well: lets say that 2 mechs with 6 lasers each shoot each other: the Hit-reg system must "read" 12 different "hot-spots" (each with different "ticks" at different times) on 2 mechs, each having 11 hitboxes.
From what i understand, the system would be heavily stressed by this, and lots of information would be lost, meaning that lots of hits would not register.
I remember that in these forums, when hit-reg was very bad it was a constant "this is a FPS game! it can't exist without good hitreg!".
We can't seem to get fixed convergence without a complete rework of the engine, unless we want to sacrifice hit-reg.
Reworking the engine would take a lot of time and resources for PGI, something i am not sure they even have.

Mystere, on 07 November 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

You are correct.

People will now be even more selective in placing their weapons. But then again, skilled/experienced players will know which parts to shoot off. I'm perfectly fine with that.

You are fine with having something like 6 viable mechs? (I know, stuff is not much better right now, but we want to make the game better, not just induce a meta-shift)
The other mechs would not be able to compete, because they would be hitting all the wrong spots on the targeted mechs, unless they were basically chain-firing. And we now what happens to mechs that do not torso twist, right?
The meta-mechs would be able to disarm each other pretty fast, only to create this wonderful landscape of disarmed mechs bumping into each other to death while the few remaining armed ones farm c-bills out of their poor useless carcasses.

[ChronoBear]

SirLANsalot, on 07 November 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

So ya, TL:DR shut up and learn to get good son, CoF/Convergence/Recoil isn't going to do anything to save your sorry ass from getting blowed up.

TT - I fire 1 Gauss and 2 Large Lasers at you, after taking in the variable for my movement, your movement, my heat penalties, I add up/subtract the variables and roll the dice. The dice come out that my Gauss hit your CT whoo hoo
One large laser hit your leg .. lame the other large laser hit your left arm .. lame. Least I got a crit on your arm actuator ... hmmm maybe make it harder for you to shoot me with that arm ... tasty...

MWO - I run around cover full speed at 70% heat - You are running to your cover - one click fire 3 large pulse lasers to your left torso - whoohoo cored your armor and blew your xl engine muwhahahaha leetskilzors

sigh

Edited by ChronoBear, 07 November 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Let me sum up what has been said till now about CoF (i hope someone at PGI will read and think about this):

• CoF could be brought as a way to reduce high alpha effectiveness at long ranges, in this way making CQC more viable. To make CoF balanced, it needs to be very small in size, and defined by a sum of heat, speed, tonnage and number of used weapons (this last one i'm not sure about, looks like ghost heat to me, but it's on the table). The randomness is minimal in this iteration of CoF (unless you really like running at full speed while at 90% heat in an assault, and even then you will probably just hit the wrong component).

This looks like a pretty nice mechanic, that should be introduced in the game.


However, this mechanic does almost nothing for TTK.

Here's how I see it.

Sources of precision reduction (or Cone of Fire):

1 - Heat, scaling linearly based on % capacity.
2 - Speed, scaling linearly based on % throttle.
3 - Alpha, scaling linearly based on X damage within Y seconds (30 damage within 2 seconds, 500 damage within 0.01 seconds, whatever).
4 - Jumping, flat penalty while burning and decaying while the jets are off.

I'd like to throw in the Targeting trigger, but it is problematic, since one could conceivably target Mech A and have his CoF shrink while deliberately shooting at Mech B instead. I don't see any easy way to link the two mechanics.

Maybe consider something based on range, as well, though I think damage fall-off combined with the other sources of precision reduction would be sufficient.

Any reductions would start out trivial and scale up to moderate at some kind of decent range (400-500 meters feels about right). Running full penalties should make you miss a fat Assault at 400m with a small number of your shots, while general operation and normal gameplay will more typically result in missing specific components and hitting near/adjacent ones instead. Obviously effects would be more pronounced the farther away from your target you are, while point-blank range would have limited pracitcal effect, though it'd make headshots very much harder if you are at high penalties.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 07 November 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[wolf74]

This is one of the Oldest question in the game. I asked about what system they were going to use back in 2011
http://mwomercs.com/...on-convergence/

Another Good thread in the pass about this:
http://mwomercs.com/...48-convergence/

[Mystere]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Yes, the system CAN do it. But that does not mean that it does it well: lets say that 2 mechs with 6 lasers each shoot each other: the Hit-reg system must "read" 12 different "hot-spots" (each with different "ticks" at different times) on 2 mechs, each having 11 hitboxes.
From what i understand, the system would be heavily stressed by this, and lots of information would be lost, meaning that lots of hits would not register.
I remember that in these forums, when hit-reg was very bad it was a constant "this is a FPS game! it can't exist without good hitreg!".

But it is being done now. It is now happening when someone steps into your line of fire after you have pulled the trigger. So I don't see why it suddenly becomes more complicated.

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

We can't seem to get fixed convergence without a complete rework of the engine, unless we want to sacrifice hit-reg.
Reworking the engine would take a lot of time and resources for PGI, something i am not sure they even have.

What we allegedly can't have is automatic and dynamic convergence, not fixed convergence. There is a world of a difference between the two.

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

You are fine with having something like 6 viable mechs? (I know, stuff is not much better right now, but we want to make the game better, not just induce a meta-shift)
The other mechs would not be able to compete, because they would be hitting all the wrong spots on the targeted mechs, unless they were basically chain-firing. And we now what happens to mechs that do not torso twist, right?
The meta-mechs would be able to disarm each other pretty fast, only to create this wonderful landscape of disarmed mechs bumping into each other to death while the few remaining armed ones farm c-bills out of their poor useless carcasses.

What do you mean 6 viable mechs?

People will have to decide whether to choose between mechs with clustered weapons and risk losing them all to one shot, or spreading their weapons out and having to aim more carefully. That is a good risk vs. reward choice.

Edited by Mystere, 07 November 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Cone of Fire from differently located hardpoints and why it works. Even with indirect fire. I'm a bad BB pilot, so...

You learn to deal with RNG/COF. Some times it smiles on you, other times, not so much. Massive Alphas still will be devestating to lights, but nothing is guaranteed anymore.



This is a great example why COF is needed for MWO.

[MauttyKoray]

CoF and Convergence are definitely not the fix we need. Something I feel might help would be the lowered skill buffs, unskilled mechs and the PTS skill values slow down the game quite a deal and in my personal opinion for the better. I've had many matches on the PTS so far where mechs felt far better than in the current 2x elite values, like they have actual weight to them.

The other thing I think would make a big difference is the connection between engine size and twist speed. Load the biggest engine in along with the skills and mechs swivelswerve all day and all over. There's little reason to worry as you can poke out, nip someone with a fire and forget weapon, and torso twist to spread damage while you dip back into cover.

[Kjudoon]

TheCharlatan, on 07 November 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

All you are solving that way is reducing effectiveness of the long range huge alphas. Which is absolutely needed, but does very little to help at lower ranges.
Either the CoF is big enough to matter, or the high-alpha problem will just move to closer ranges.

Cones and angles and arcs narrow the closer you get to the point of origin.

[Kjudoon]

MauttyKoray, on 07 November 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

CoF and Convergence are definitely not the fix we need. Something I feel might help would be the lowered skill buffs, unskilled mechs and the PTS skill values slow down the game quite a deal and in my personal opinion for the better. I've had many matches on the PTS so far where mechs felt far better than in the current 2x elite values, like they have actual weight to them.

The other thing I think would make a big difference is the connection between engine size and twist speed. Load the biggest engine in along with the skills and mechs swivelswerve all day and all over. There's little reason to worry as you can poke out, nip someone with a fire and forget weapon, and torso twist to spread damage while you dip back into cover.

We need more simulation and less FPS, particularly anything in the arena shooter design and functionality. I disagree fairly solidly with the OP's conclusions, but he does make some points of value I could elaborate on later if I get time. I like the fact you mention the game moves slower on the PTS, as I hope the restructuring/elimination of the skill tree buffs will make this a better game. Once the addiction to speed of movement/DPS declines, this game can improve. Convergence STILL needs to go and some form of spread needs to be put in for all grouped DF weapons, just like missiles and LBx weapons. And there is also the proof that it can be done for it is already done for SOME weapons. Besides, an alpha of 5/5/5/5 from a UAC5 monster will still be more devestating than a 2/2/2/2/2/2 2/2/2/2/2/2 from a mech sporting 2SRM6s. or a 20 tube LRM blast.

And those triple AC10 Direwhales will become very very dangerous with a 10/10/10 slam into body parts. The insta kill will go away as everyone starts sanding down armor. Damage values will go up, and TTK as well and this will be for the better. Games will be a lot more challenging as the high twitch-players who can shoot 'left eyeball corner pocket' at 600m will no longer have that great of an advantage over that Tier 5 potato that can't shoot a barn from the inside. Again, this twitch-levelling will be a major advantage for the game as it will drive out bad elements on both ends of the spectrum who want this only as an arena shooter, while opening the game up more to the everyman who will be a more stable element over the long haul for profitability and sustainability.

I'm a bittervet. No doubt about it, but if this game can turn this corner, I would be ecstatic and be able to sing it's praises again. Till then, all I have is a dirge of loss.

BTW, since shooting straight is reflex/twitch not skill, that is why I refer to it as such. Skill involves thinking. Twitch/reflex is about reacting precisely with muscle memory.

Edited by Kjudoon, 07 November 2015 - 06:06 PM.