140 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

I will point out, that it is obviously against the MINORITY voices in the crowd. Its just that the opinions of that minority are supposed to be more right/important, apparently.

So, if a minority cries out "Please do not exterminate us!", they should be ignored? Look how well that worked in Rwanda.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 13 November 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

So, if a minority cries out "Please do not exterminate us!", they should be ignored? Look how well that worked in Rwanda.

Yeah that translates into this current "tragedy" perfectly.

Drama queen.

[moonglum]

Lol. The whole point is that the skirmish game mode gets boring. Meta mech builds on meta maps going to established meta locations over and over and over.

I'm also a fan of the conquest game mode and the breaking point for me was the other night when we actually did get a conquest map and I had a teammate run out of bounds right away with a "sry, skirmish player" excuse.

Fen, I'm with you. I like scouting, but without fail someone will tell me that I don't need to scout cause we know exactly where the other team will be. True as that may be in skirmish, no longer will I run back and save the murder ball no matter how much whining I hear from the team. I might even get my 3L back out!

[Rathverge]

The obvious choice is to complete the prebeta wish for a Solaris skirmish map and que. Remove skirmish from selection in normal que (since assault basically plays out the same). If you add a 'stock' que for solaris you could even kill two birds with one stone... or like a LBX AC to a flock of birds.

Just my dream, off to put my head back into the sand.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

You say it is dumbed down yet you have not mastered it. Everyone forgets that the reason players are good is primarily decision making and positioning. All thought based skills. Twitch aim skills are a bonus, they help but the core is using your head and making good decisions. To the average player, it seems like OMG that person just EZ mode alphad me and I couldn't shoot him back. Well, you need to stop and think about why that is happening. Its not that the game is dumbed down, its that someone else is playing the game smarter.

Pfft... Anyone half-way decent can grind long enough to get to tier 1, and given the OP's obvious boredom with the game, it should come as no shock that he hasn't spent / wasted the time to do that. Contrary the opinions of some around here, just because somebody hasn't mastered something doesn't mean they can't comment correctly on it.

As for the rest, while the best players are marginally more skilled than the average player, the difference is far, FAR less than some would pretend it is. A lot of things can substitute for skill in this game:
- Meta-crutch mechs; easily downloaded and copied from the internet.
- Twitch reflexes (only partly dependent on skill - age and genetics play a huge role, too.)
- Being part of a large, coordinated team. Again, a lot of luck to this based on the number of friends you have who play the game at the same time as you.
- Map memorization.

I'm not saying skill doesn't play a part, but usually when I see a lop-sided win, it's more likely because one side had a large team vs. a small team, or had meta-mechs vs. junk, etc. None of that involves actual skill.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 13 November 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

Pfft... Anyone half-way decent can grind long enough to get to tier 1, and given the OP's obvious boredom with the game, it should come as no shock that he hasn't spent / wasted the time to do that. Contrary the opinions of some around here, just because somebody hasn't mastered something doesn't mean they can't comment correctly on it.

As for the rest, while the best players are marginally more skilled than the average player, the difference is far, FAR less than some would pretend it is. A lot of things can substitute for skill in this game:
- Meta-crutch mechs; easily downloaded and copied from the internet.
- Twitch reflexes (only partly dependent on skill - age and genetics play a huge role, too.)
- Being part of a large, coordinated team. Again, a lot of luck to this based on the number of friends you have who play the game at the same time as you.
- Map memorization.

I'm not saying skill doesn't play a part, but usually when I see a lop-sided win, it's more likely because one side had a large team vs. a small team, or had meta-mechs vs. junk, etc. None of that involves actual skill.

You are right, anyone half-way decent should be able to get to Tier 1 in a reasonable amount of time. IE, if you play on a regular basis, if you were half-way decent you should make it to Tier 1 in 6 months no problem. Well, the game has been gathering data for 11 months now, and we have Tier 3-4 players who are authorities on skill in this game and who say, "pshhh anyone can grind to tier 1 I just haven't played enough." Its possible if you only play CW and rarely play public queue that yes, you will not have enough matches to rise to Tier 1, that is definitely true. Also agree that just being Tier 1 doesn't mean you are an amazing player (I'm Tier 1 which is proof of that ) but I do know that after watching how my PSR changes match to match, I (and many others) can easily maintain net gains without taking only cookie-cutter TDR-5SS, HBR, TBR, EBJ, ACH, FS9, WVR-6K, SCR, DWF, etc (did I miss any metas?). Doesn't mean I don't take them sometimes, because I do, like to stay familiar just in case I need to use them in a comp situation.

But I digress.. it is not about what tier anyone is in. I'm deducing that he hasn't mastered the game based on his complaints. People who think this game takes no thought don't get it. Your brain is your most powerful tool for this game. Play the game at 4 am after drinking for 5 hours and you will suck, even if your aim is perfect every time. Aiming and reflexes are nice to have, and help get you out of bad situations, but the primary factor in determining how well you perform is how you position yourself, when/where you poke, where to move, when/where to shoot, etc. Things that are all thought based skills. If you have bad aim but you can master those things you will actually do okay. The problem is people don't play smart sometimes. I know because if I am not of sound mind (drunk or otherwise intoxicated, or extremely tired) I'm bad and make really bad decisions. My aim is largely unaffected (which to start is decent, not perfect), but I end up wandering, chasing, or doing something stupid and getting wrecked without doing much damage. The difference is huge.

I don't know how to convince you guys that its all about putting yourself in good situations, and avoiding the bad situations. That is the single most important part of this game.

Yes, builds come in to play (honestly the copy paste situation you describe is like.. not nearly as prevalent as you seem to think, none of my builds are identical to someone else's, unless they got it from me, I can promise you that all of my builds have some personal twist to them that I prefer that someone else might not, save for that rare coincidence that someone came to the exact same setup, but that isn't my fault). You can't expect to trade with mid-range lasers when you have mostly short range weapons. I get that this is frustrating in the solo queue because you can't convince your team to close with you. Trust me I get it, I have tried playing short range builds and often end up having to wait patiently before getting close enough to the action. Sometimes its not so bad, other times it sucks. That is why I typically like mid to long range builds because I like being able to return fire if I need to, and that reduces my chances of being put into a bad situation. But if you are in a bigger group and you all agree that you are going to brawl, then short range builds are fine.

Additionally, the large coordinated teams do provide an advantage, but if you struggle in small groups, solo queue is easier. I can't comment on that, but I don't even like playing in big groups currently because it makes mech selection too limited with how the tonnage limits are in place. Some pig in an assault means the rest of the team is limited to 50 tonners or less? No thanks.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 November 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

You are right, anyone half-way decent should be able to get to Tier 1 in a reasonable amount of time.

But I digress.. it is not about what tier anyone is in. I'm deducing that he hasn't mastered the game based on his complaints. People who think this game takes no thought don't get it.

Some of us have better things to do... hell, I barely play a few games a week anymore. The game is stale, most directions taken by PGI at this point are poor ones, and there's no sign of improvement. What benefit is there to "mastering" - grinding - a game that's nothing more than a short distraction anymore?

As for the rest, meta-crutch mechs, large teams, twitch reflexes, and map memorization are the driving factors in this game. Skill only drifts in after all those facts. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After a person gets past the basics of the game - don't blunder off alone, don't mindlessly NASCAR, don't stand on a hill in plain sight getting shot - "mastering" those areas will get him a lot further than anything else.

Sure, top tier players have somewhat more skill than bottom tier ones. That's fine - whatever - but I'm damn tired of listening to people who pretend crushing casual groups in meta mechs is some "test of skill" or that if somebody doesn't have a tier 1 under their name, than any facts they post are to be discounted. It's nothing but digital epeen polishing and has served nicely as yet another way to get the community to turn against itself and drown out all reasonable voices.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 November 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 13 November 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Some of us have better things to do... hell, I barely play a few games a week anymore. The game is stale, most directions taken by PGI at this point are poor ones, and there's no sign of improvement. What benefit is there to "mastering" - grinding - a game that's nothing more than a short distraction anymore?

As for the rest, meta-crutch mechs, large teams, twitch reflexes, and map memorization are the driving factors in this game. Skill only drifts in after all those facts. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After a person gets past the basics of the game - don't blunder off alone, don't mindlessly NASCAR, don't stand on a hill in plain sight getting shot - "mastering" those areas will get him a lot further than anything else.

Sure, top tier players have somewhat more skill than bottom tier ones. That's fine - whatever - but I'm damn tired of listening to people who pretend crushing casual groups in meta mechs is some "test of skill" or that if somebody doesn't have a tier 1 under their name, than any facts they post are to be discounted. It's nothing but digital epeen polishing and has served nicely as yet another way to get the community to turn against itself and drown out all reasonable voices.

As I said, how good someone is doesn't have much to do with what Tier number is under their name, but it is easy to tell based on their assessment of the game. The basic skills you listed here make someone not absolutely terrible, but there is a lot more than that.

How are large teams a driving factor in the solo queue? Can you can the cookie cutter responses please? I just explained how you don't need twitch reflexes, you can do fine without them, and how meta crutch mechs are NOT all this game is. I have almost 300 matches in one Black Knight variant that came out in September, so I'm not a strictly meta humper. If you are just going to say yeah no you're wrong this is how it is without any sort of reasoning then you aren't worth talking to. Troll elsewhere.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 November 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Meh. I need 10% skirmish, 60% assault and 20% conquest. But i am having more fun with balanced games on WOWS and waiting patiently for the course to be reversed.

[Kjudoon]

Mystere, we live in a world where too many believe might makes right, have no universal ethical standard or respect cor human life.

So why should we expect more from gamers?

Most of the world never heard of 'checks and balances' and shockingly few Americans who were supposedly raised to think in a system designed to preserve and co exist multiple paths of life that choose to co exist believe in them.

Tyranny is evil no matter if it is the majority or minority that has it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yes and a vote for Skirmish is a vote for Tyranny.

You people...

[Kjudoon]

Gas... You just dont comprehend. Stop twitching at shadows and think about what was said not ylhow you feel.


Of course that encapaulates the two main divisions in this game rather eloquantly. Those who think and those that react without thinking.

[Kira Onime]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

if you were half-way decent you should make it to Tier 1 in 6 months no problem.

Started in March of this year, more than halfway done in T1 when the system rolled out.
~7months.
Since I started in march of this year, that 7 months also includes the time period in which I was still learning the ropes of the game.

What's his excuse?

[Kjudoon]

Tier 1 is not end game either. This game has the same "win state" as Asteroids, space invaders or defender.

I dont have an excuse. I have a reason. All my stats are calculated after quitting all comp training play for 1. For another i rarely run meta outside of cw. I am deliberately playing in a manner that keeps me tier 4.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"You say it is dumbed down yet you have not mastered it."

Two different things. You can play a vanilla mode and still lose every game. Think of it like playing catch in the backyard vs playing baseball in the sandlot - which would hold your interest longer?


"To the average player, it seems like OMG that person just EZ mode alphad me and I couldn't shoot him back. Well, you need to stop and think about why that is happening. Its not that the game is dumbed down, its that someone else is playing the game smarter."

You are making unfounded assumptions. Nowhere have I said anything against being alpha'd by an opponent using superior tactics.


"Let me also remind you that Frozen City (day) with the storm, is not a clear map at all. Now that we have addressed that fallacy"

I said "cold clear maps". Frozen is cold, not clear. Players are voting on the simplest maps - if the map is cold AND clear, it gets chosen first (HPG). If that combo of cold/clear is not available, then they go for the coldest (Frozen). If there are map choices not that cold, then they go for clear (Tourmaline, Canyon). That's not a fallacy.


"why is running to bases and capturing without fighting so fun for you?"

Again, unfounded assumptions. Most my Conquest games I'm in the top 3 for damage dealt, and that's in a 3MP Raven. Basic Conquest tactics are to keep caps at 3-2 or 2-3 and then get back in the fight. So this angle you're working, that I capture without fighting, is mistaken.

There are several reasons I find Conquest more interesting, here are a few:
1) aggressive scouting is actually useful again, as its not the usual predictable deathball in the middle. You never know where the main fight will be, which means fast scouts like mine are more useful than normal.
2) because its not the usual deathball in the middle, you wind up fighting on parts of the map you rarely see or use on Skirmish. This adds variety and makes old maps feel brand new.
3) more lance vs lance action, instead of the usual deathball. And the action is more fluid, since my lance is brawling at around an average 140kph. That means you have to react quicker and adapt on the fly, instead of simply waiting to poke again.
4) you routinely encounter solo enemy lights out in the middle of nowhere, which means more 1 vs 1 duels without outside interference.
5) more tactical decisions to weigh on the fly - when to cap vs when to fight, when to cap vs when to simply decap, etc. The added objective creates more variables to consider, which makes it more intellectually stimulating.


"I can't tell you how many times that teams that lost the 'battle' win by caps because they have some elusive players left.

And I can't tell you how many times teams lost the battle by killout because they refused to hold their position for 3 minutes. We're about to secure the win, red team can't catch up, and all the blue skirmishers have to do is trade smart and delay them for a bit longer. And instead they push in to get that one last kill. These are the "smarter" players you were referring to? They just want to blow stuff up, which is fun, but also simple.


"you are just coming off as a spoiled whiny child with all this 'other people don't want to play the same game mode as me, and when they do, they shoot mechs instead of only capping, its not fair!"

Again, where do you get this assumption that I believe in dedicated capping? I think you have over-estimated your intelligence here. Or that you have misunderstood what you have read. The fact that you immediately jump to these "he must not like to shoot" assumptions tells me you don't understand how Conquest is actually played.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 13 November 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Fenrisulvyn, on 13 November 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Again, where do you get this assumption that I believe in dedicated capping? I think you have over-estimated your intelligence here. Or that you have misunderstood what you have read. The fact that you immediately jump to these "he must not like to shoot" assumptions tells me you don't understand how Conquest is actually played.

I get it, but you have said that Conquest just turns to Skirmish every single time and that is why its bad, which leads me to believe you don't like shooting people. If you do like shooting people than I don't understand why Skirmish is so terrible.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"but you have said that Conquest just turns to Skirmish every single time and that is why its bad"

Huh? No.

What I have said is that Skirmish players already have their own mode - Skirmish. But when they vote for Assault (b/c Skirmish is not on the voting menu), they usually just ignore the bases and play it out as if it were Skirmish. And they do the same thing when they are forced to play Conquest, even if it means throwing away a cap win and the associated cbills and PSR bump from winning.

So I find it hypocritical when they complain I am not contributing to their mode. And a bit rich that they expect me to compromise out of "fairness" when 90% of the drops they choose are basically just skirmish.

I agree that the core of every mode is skirmish. But for me, Assault is Skirmish+ and Conquest is Skirmish++

[Gas Guzzler]

Okay, sorry, I may have been confusing you with the cess pool of "MWO is Mech of Duty" crowd that spilled into this thread earlier. I don't intentionally throw away a conquest win and I don't think anyone else does either unless they are pretty clueless.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Understood. And thanks for keeping it mostly civil.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Loving the new patch with Vote Weighting. Getting a good variety of modes now, around 40% Conquest, 30% Assault, 30% Skirmish. Although I expect those tallies to swap around, its much better than before.

Happy to report that, since I am no longer being forced to play Skirmish all the time, I will be throwing my full support behind it when it does come up.

Thanks.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 17 November 2015 - 12:36 PM.