73 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

Kinda off topic but...
IMO there are clan mechs that need more help than timber

MLX
KFX
ADR
IFR
MDD
SMN
GAR
~WHK

Instead of unlocking engines we could unlock DHS, CAP, FF, Endo and maybe JJ. This would give pretty much nothing to any tier1 clan mech but would help all the bad ones a lot.

[Duke Nedo]

MischiefSC, on 22 November 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

So you get all the weight savings of an XL, until you lose a ST. Then, instead of dying.... you just get slowed down to match what having had a STD engine (of the same tonnage) would have provided. So you get the literal best of both worlds - XL weight savings for XL speed and weapon tonnage until you lose a ST. At which point it's like it shifts to being a STD engine. For example you get the speed of a 375XL in a Timber Wolf and associated tonnage savings until you lose your ST. At that point instead of dying instantly you just... slow down to about the speed you would have had with a 305std.

How about this - you get unlocked STD engines that weigh and work just like IS STD engines but if you want an XL you go with the default one?

Of course only an absolute nitwit would actually put a STD engine in since taking the 375XL gives you a huge performance boost and when you lose a ST you just... default to what you'd have had from moment one in a 300STD.

I'd be happy to see engines unlocked for Clans if they worked just like IS engines. Death on ST loss, 3 slots each side and Endo/FF at 14 slots each. Plus crit space and tonnage on weapons and DHS increased to IS standards.

Oh, wait, suddenly that's not a very good trade, is it? The locked engine is what offsets the reduced weight and spaces of Clan weapons and equipment. It prevents total min/max of the smaller, lights Clan weapons and 1/2 sized Endo/FF.

The tradeoff being you have to put up with the weight savings of an XL and pretty much the survival of a STD. Peanut butter I tell you, my heart bleeds it!

This is the thing. I can't believe some guys cry about 20% speed/agility nerf on a ST loss instead of DEATH in this context. Unbelievable.

Spend your energy on trying to get help for the broken clan mechs instead. Unlocking endo/ff is something I find quite agreeable, only the HBR would become "the perfect mech", otherwise it would only have positive effects.

I also still advocate buffs for IS XL engines. Trade ST DEATH for a 30% penalty, and buff both clan and IS STD engines with durability. Tech balance would be in a much better place.

[DivineEvil]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Lower engine rating and smaller side torsos I explained this already. Ebon goes same speed but it has a much lighter engine.

No no no, wait. You have said, that EJ has less to lose when his ST is destroyed than TW. EJ carries smaller engine, but it also lighter mech, so in the end both mechs has the same speed, suffer the same performance penalty when side torso is popped and has the same pod-space.

So, again, what the hell are you even talking about?

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No one runs stock armor on mechs though. Ebon gets way more than 1 ton pod space advantage after timber is armored to full.

False.

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If the timber is given more armor and JJs it's not using ballistics. So yes my reasoning makes perfect sense. The timber is forced to use nerfed lasers while the ebon is able to use ballistics.

Nobody is forcing you to use anything. It is your own inability to work out the basic data, that leads to these silly assumptions. Your pod space is your problem. TW and EJ has equal amount, and both has the variety of hardpoints for almost any loadouts. Thus one way or another TW can equip exactly the same loadouts that EJ can.

The differences are, TW can equip +1 ton of armor, can equip JJs, a bit larger, has better proportions and overall better for brawling but worse for skirmishing than EJ, which has large legs and easier to core-out up close.
In light of these obvious realities, your arguments are nonsense.

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The whole point of unlocking engine rating is to allow clan mechs with Huge engines to take other weapons besides lasers. This also helps mechs like the gargoyle, executioner, and warhawk. It would drastically improve weapon diversity for clan mechs.

First, Clan mechs are already good enough to reduce their penalties. Second, weapon diversity is always here and always were. The problem is that majority of players are in favor of the least challenging gameplay, thus they consciously buy Clan mechs, which gives them straight advantages over IS in combat, and buttload them with lasers, because they do not require any skills to use. Whether you're one of them or not is completely up to you.

Edited by DivineEvil, 23 November 2015 - 02:15 AM.

[Khobai]

The timberwolf has more tonnage invested in engine thus loses more tonnage when it's side torso is popped. 20% of a 375 engine weighs A LOT more than 20% of a 325 engine. that's common sense I shouldn't even have to point that out but obviously you missed the entire point.

And yes weapon diversity on clan mechs is absolutely stifled by being forced to use huge engines. Thats a commonly accepted fact and you're the only person I've ever seen try to foolishly argue otherwise. The fact the ebon jaguar is a full 10 tons lighter than the timberwolf but has MORE pod space is indicative that huge engines are a problem. Heavier mechs should have more podspace than lighter mechs, not less.

you're way too fixated on the timberwolf and unable to see all the other clan mechs that desperately need help that unlocked engine ratings would give them. Different clan mechs can have different ranges for unlocked engines. The timber can have stricter ranges while the kit fox could have more liberal ranges in what engine ratings it could use.

The whole point is not to make the timber wolf better it's to fix mechs like the kit fox and executioner that are excessively punished by locked engine ratings. Kit fox is slow and massively oversized; the worst combination for a light. It needs to go the same speed as other lights. And the executioner has a laughable 380 engine which prevents it from using anything but laser spam and it has easy to blow out side torsos that make it lose 20% of its 380 engine which is a huge downside since speed is literally it's ONLY advantage. An assault that loses it's only advantage when it loses a side torso is terribad.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[Tesunie]

Khobai, on 23 November 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

The timberwolf has more tonnage invested in engine thus loses more tonnage when it's side torso is popped. 20% of a 375 engine weighs A LOT more than 20% of a 325 engine. that's common sense I shouldn't even have to point that out but obviously you missed the entire point.

And yes weapon diversity on clan mechs is absolutely stifled by being forced to use huge engines. Thats a commonly accepted fact and you're the only person I've ever seen try to foolishly argue otherwise. The fact the ebon jaguar is a full 10 tons lighter than the timberwolf but has MORE pod space is indicative that huge engines are a problem. Heavier mechs should have more podspace than lighter mechs, not less.

you're way too fixated on the timberwolf and unable to see all the other clan mechs that desperately need help that unlocked engine ratings would give them. Different clan mechs can have different ranges for unlocked engines. The timber can have stricter ranges while the kit fox could have more liberal ranges in what engine ratings it could use.

The whole point is not to make the timber wolf better it's to fix mechs like the kit fox and executioner that are excessively punished by locked engine ratings. Kit fox is slow and massively oversized; the worst combination for a light. It needs to go the same speed as other lights. And the executioner has a laughable 380 engine which prevents it from using anything but laser spam and it has easy to blow out side torsos that make it lose 20% of its 380 engine which is a huge downside since speed is literally it's ONLY advantage. An assault that loses it's only advantage when it loses a side torso is terribad.

20% of the SAME SPEED is the same penalty to agility. So the reduction are the same between the two mechs. The Ebon just requires a smaller engine to move at the same speed.

The Ebon has only 1 extra ton over the TImberwolf when fully maxed armor (JJs are an optional gear one can place on a Timberwolf, making it having better options). So, the Timberwolf technically only has 1 ton penalty extra over the Ebon when fully maxed armor, by available pod space, when it losses a side torso.

Yes, larger mechs have to pay more tonnage to go the same speed as smaller mechs. However, performance wise between the Ebon and the TImber, they would remain essentially the same after losing a side torso. This is about performance, not engine tonnage efficiency.



PS: I believe you where the one who fixated on the Timberwolf here?

PPS: Kitfox is soon to be getting a scaling overhaul. Same with the Nova, Quickdraw, Centurion...


Slow lights work well, depending upon how you use them. My Wolfhounds work well with smaller engines. So do my Panthers. I have a Locust with a Std 100 engine in it, and it's been dubbed Super Locust, because of it's strange resilience (I don't understand what makes it live so long). Don't be saying all light mechs need to go fast. They don't, but the typical meta is for light mechs to go fast.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

IS eventually get a ultra light engines

[Tarl Cabot]

Curccu, on 22 November 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

Kinda off topic but...
IMO there are clan mechs that need more help than timber

MLX
KFX
ADR
IFR
MDD
SMN
GAR
~WHK

Instead of unlocking engines we could unlock DHS, CAP, FF, Endo and maybe JJ. This would give pretty much nothing to any tier1 clan mech but would help all the bad ones a lot.

On the unlocking of other components the major issue would be the tracking of said components so that DHS/JJ are not duplicated, where to redistribute FF/ES, creating even more problems.

And by unlocking it would be to have the ability to move the pieces around on the omni, not completely remove them. To be able to remove said components that would be even a bigger issue. Both ways would have issues due to the nature of omni mechs/pods. One alternative would be to lock each variant with their own omnipods when a major change is made. To revert the change would incur an additional cost to reset the omni to its default base configuration.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 23 November 2015 - 05:42 PM.

[DivineEvil]

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The timberwolf has more tonnage invested in engine thus loses more tonnage when it's side torso is popped. 20% of a 375 engine weighs A LOT more than 20% of a 325 engine. that's common sense I shouldn't even have to point that out but obviously you missed the entire point.

You're not losing any tonnage. Tonnage only means anything in the mech lab. You're creating a problem to solve, where there's no problem.

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And yes weapon diversity on clan mechs is absolutely stifled by being forced to use huge engines. Thats a commonly accepted fact and you're the only person I've ever seen try to foolishly argue otherwise. The fact the ebon jaguar is a full 10 tons lighter than the timberwolf but has MORE pod space is indicative that huge engines are a problem. Heavier mechs should have more podspace than lighter mechs, not less.

Your arrogance is amusing. First of all, I don't give a damn about what is commonly accepted.

Second, you seem to be out of touch of the idea behind the differences between the IS and Clan mechs. You should consider reading up some info about omni-mechs on Sarna.

Third, Ebon Jaguar is indeed 10 tons lighter than the Timber Wolf, but is not faster. Lighter mechs should have more speed, not the same as heavier mechs. Just used your own argument against your idea

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you're way too fixated on the timberwolf and unable to see all the other clan mechs that desperately need help that unlocked engine ratings would give them. Different clan mechs can have different ranges for unlocked engines. The timber can have stricter ranges while the kit fox could have more liberal ranges in what engine ratings it could use.

Unlocked engine rating would give help to every Clan mech. This is yet another suggestion, based on one's inability to comprehend the source and scale of the problem. Particular issues must not be resolved with general solutions, and vise versa. It will just create more issues! Essentially, its just a suggestion to remove innate limitations of all Clan mechs, for no good reason.

Clan mechs are built around their engine and other fixed components. This is what determines their flavour, and this what compensates for their Omni-pod system. This whole idea, in the picture of what Clan mechs technically represent, is ridiculous; we wouldn't be talking about different ranges of engine rating, but rather hard-wiring the installed omni-pods into the mech permanently. If one or another mech is harder to play, then its quirks and other properties of these specific mechs, that has to be adjusted, not the whole tech-base of the Clan mechs.

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The whole point is not to make the timber wolf better it's to fix mechs like the kit fox and executioner that are excessively punished by locked engine ratings. Kit fox is slow and massively oversized; the worst combination for a light. It needs to go the same speed as other lights. And the executioner has a laughable 380 engine which prevents it from using anything but laser spam and it has easy to blow out side torsos that make it lose 20% of its 380 engine which is a huge downside since speed is literally it's ONLY advantage. An assault that loses it's only advantage when it loses a side torso is terribad.

Kit Fox is built to be slow, and Executioner is built to be mobile. You've said it yourself, that it's only advantage, so use it. Neither of these mechs are broken, they are just built for specific purpoces. For any Clan mech, the podspace is the remainder from the tonnage used for another benefits. More than that, these mechs are modelled and animated for the specific speed limit they possess - you cannot just let the Kit Fox and Adder to move 150kph, you'll have to redesign and reanimate the entire model to make it work. There's no justification in your arguments to incentivise PGI to do that.

IS players choose their mechs on their fixed properties, and Clan players do the same thing. If you cannot make these Mechs work based on their fixed properties, then why the hell would you need them to begin with? Besides, Inner Sphere players have their black sheep mechs too, like UrbanMechs, Trebuchets, Quickdraws and Highlanders. These mechs has their own limitations, and only dedicated players know how to make these mechs work, but nobody argues that there's something wrong with all the IS mechs just because of that. They has to be examined on per-case basis. Inner Sphere mechs pay the same tonnage price for their engines as Clan mechs, and when they lose their side torso with XL engine, they simply die on the spot.

So please, make a favor for everyone and enjoy your Clan's advantages with consideration, and learn to prepare the actual data before arguing for something, rather than coming up with these outrageous assumptions based on your own imagination.

Edited by DivineEvil, 23 November 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[Curccu]

Tarl Cabot, on 23 November 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

On the unlocking of other components the major issue would be the tracking of said components so that DHS/JJ are not duplicated, where to redistribute FF/ES, creating even more problems.

And by unlocking it would be to have the ability to move the pieces around on the omni, not completely remove them. To be able to remove said components that would be even a bigger issue. Both ways would have issues due to the nature of omni mechs/pods. One alternative would be to lock each variant with their own omnipods when a major change is made. To revert the change would incur an additional cost to reset the omni to its default base configuration.

By unlocking I mean being able to move/remove/add them as you want.

Why do you think it would be big issue to be able to remove CAP from the head of Mist Lynx? I haven't seen threads saying unlocking Adders head flamer broke the game, only positive feedback.

If the problem is lore, well I couldn't care less about some omnimech construction rules some fellows made to a board game 30 years ago, IF breaking those could make this game better.

[DivineEvil]

Curccu, on 24 November 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

By unlocking I mean being able to move/remove/add them as you want.

Why do you think it would be big issue to be able to remove CAP from the head of Mist Lynx? I haven't seen threads saying unlocking Adders head flamer broke the game, only positive feedback.

If the problem is lore, well I couldn't care less about some omnimech construction rules some fellows made to a board game 30 years ago, IF breaking those could make this game better.

The key is that it will not make the game better.

[Curccu]

DivineEvil, on 24 November 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

The key is that it will not make the game better.

Increasing mech diversity doesn't make game better? IMO it does and making those worst mechs less worse would motivate me at least to play them more (and I would get less frowns and whining from my unit not doing my part because of playing tier s*** joke mechs )

[DivineEvil]

Curccu, on 24 November 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Increasing mech diversity doesn't make game better? IMO it does and making those worst mechs less worse would motivate me at least to play them more (and I would get less frowns and whining from my unit not doing my part because of playing tier s*** joke mechs )

Mech diversity is achieved by making bad mechs better, not by making all mechs better. Your proposed changes will make all Clan mechs better (even despite the fact that they are already much better than IS overall), and these underdog mechs will remain underdogs, and nobody will play them anyway. The reason behind these mechs viewed as underdogs is due to their innate properties relative to others, as I've already stated, not due to Clan's unique limitations.

What your unit's members opinion on the issue is irrelevant. If they support your proposition, then they're just as incompetent in data analysis as you are. As long as we're not speaking about competetive leagues like MRBC or RHOD, nobody really should bother if you're willing to challenge youself with riding inferior mechs. Everyone has their own fun. As long as you understand the limitations and features of a particular mech, you can always make it work to a respectable degree. There's no exceptions.

[Wildstreak]

This is funny.

Without weapons and using near max armor (max on Ebon, -2 points on Timber), Timber Wolf has 27.5 tons free, Ebon Jaguar has 28.5 tons free. 1 ton is not a big deal, if you think it is, you do not want Unlocked Engines, you want Unlocked DHS on all but Lights who need locked DHS to reach 10 minimum. Timber has 5 extra locked in engine, Ebon has 3 locked. Unlocking those outside the Engine Built-ins (10 max) gives the Timber a 1 ton advantage and helps several other Clan Mechs like allowing Novas to use Ballistics decently.

When it comes to Ballistic spots, both Mechs have the ability to use up to 3 bigger than a MG (4th spot on the TBR-Prime not counted). Energy spots are also equal (TBR CT spots not counted) except for location. Both can do up to 4 Missile though TBR has to use torso spots while Ebon uses torso and arms.
Any drawback to multiple Ballistic Timbers comes not from engine, but from location and non-Ballistic spots that go along with them.

TBR with S-LT, S-RT and C-RA has 3 Ballistic, 4 Missile and 1 Energy. Add a C or Prime LA for a total of 3 Energy.
EBJ with A-LA, A-RT and A-RA has 3 Ballistic and 4 Energy, A-LT adds 3 more Energy for 7. Could always switch to C-Arms for 3B, 2M and 3E. Doubt seeing anyone use Prime arms.
It is the extra Energy spots advantage if anything the Ebon has trying to run 3 Ballistics on both and that presumes you have room for anything other than 3 Ballistics.

Only triple Ballistic I see anyone wanting is Triple UAC5 like the Jager but that sacrifices something so perhaps it should be looked at what a Clan Heavy needs to sacrifice currently.

[Tarl Cabot]

Curccu, on 24 November 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

By unlocking I mean being able to move/remove/add them as you want.

Why do you think it would be big issue to be able to remove CAP from the head of Mist Lynx? I haven't seen threads saying unlocking Adders head flamer broke the game, only positive feedback.

If the problem is lore, well I couldn't care less about some omnimech construction rules some fellows made to a board game 30 years ago, IF breaking those could make this game better.

It has nothing to do with lore, it is the logistics of keeping track of not just the previously locked items, but the omnipods that had those locked items. Reviewing them in the mechlab, the only thing PGI would likely not unlock is the Endo/Ferro because they are not a single piece of equipment like a flamer or a DHS.

When an omnipod is removed, the removable equipment set in that pod is also put back into inventory but with Endo/FF it is not just one piece but 1 of 7 equipment pieces located in more than one location.

With the current locked equipment, PGI has also restricted which and how weapons can fit in one location.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 24 November 2015 - 08:32 AM.

[Tesunie]

Curccu, on 24 November 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

By unlocking I mean being able to move/remove/add them as you want.

Why do you think it would be big issue to be able to remove CAP from the head of Mist Lynx? I haven't seen threads saying unlocking Adders head flamer broke the game, only positive feedback.

If the problem is lore, well I couldn't care less about some omnimech construction rules some fellows made to a board game 30 years ago, IF breaking those could make this game better.

Some items could probably use to be unlocked, such as the Adder's flamer. Other items, such as locked engines, are locked for a very good balancing reason.

You could convince me to say yes to unlocking CAP from mechs where it is locked (such as the Mist Lynx). However, this thread is asking to give clan mechs some freedom of engine sizes, using the (godlike, considered best in the game heavy) Timberwolf as being disadvantaged to the (near-godlike, considered near best in the game heavy) Ebon Jaguar as it's comparison points, as the possible speed reduction when losing a side torso would be a "huge weight disadvantage" to clan mechs that have larger engines.

To this thread's proposal, I have to strongly say now, would be unbalancing to the game. Yes it could boost up the weaker clan mechs in need of a little pick-me-up, but in the same turn it could make "best in the game" clan mechs become even more powerful. The proposal here was not overly well thought out, in my opinion.

[Appogee]

Clan Mechs enjoy more advantages than IS Mechs.

Proof.

The only reason the lesser-used Clan Mechs are lesser-used is that some Clan Mechs are better than other Clan Mechs, and Clan pilots understandably prefer to use the better Clan Mechs.

But that's not a reason to further buff lesser-used Clan Mechs, given they already enjoy more advantages than equivalent IS Mechs.

Edited by Appogee, 24 November 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Basically this thread is about buffing clan mechs because they need to be even better?

[Curccu]

Appogee, on 24 November 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Clan Mechs enjoy more advantages than IS Mechs.

Proof.

The only reason the lesser-used Clan Mechs are lesser-used is that some Clan Mechs are better than other Clan Mechs, and Clan pilots understandably prefer to use the better Clan Mechs.

But that's not a reason to further buff lesser-used Clan Mechs, given they already enjoy more advantages than equivalent IS Mechs.

Quirks kinda fu**up that list of yours IMO, it's not that black and white.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Curccu, on 24 November 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

Quirks kinda fu**up that list of yours IMO, it's not that black and white.

Half of PTS is dedicated on how to limit the amount of IS quirks. So far not really successfull. Buffing clan tech will make it even worse.

[Curccu]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 24 November 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Half of PTS is dedicated on how to limit the amount of IS quirks. So far not really successfull. Buffing clan tech will make it even worse.

I do not want to buff clan tech, I want to buff WEAK clan omnimechs.