73 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 23 November 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

you're way too fixated on the timberwolf and unable to see all the other clan mechs that desperately need help that unlocked engine ratings would give them.

You can't introduce a fix that completely breaks the game. The SCR, the DWF, the TBR, the HBR, the EBJ, the ACH... all of these mechs would be insane if clans had their engines even partially unlocked. Let me put it another way - they would break the game because they are able to further min-max exactly how they like. They are already the best mechs in the game. If you introduce this buff to them, then you have to counteract it with a nerf, which is two changes for the price of one - scotch tape on top of a bandaid.

What would help the other clan mechs is to unlock many of their fixed equipment. Unlock their cAPs, unlock their MASC, unlock 50% of their JJs. Unlock their external DHS. Then see where that leaves us. If these mechs are still so terrible that even quirks can't save them, then maybe you could unlock Endo and/or Ferro. And after that if these mechs are still so terrible, you quirk them more. But if you unlock engines, then all the good clan omnis get buffs as well and they go from Jesus-tier to God-tier, which is even more problematic than the issue currently at hand.

[Appogee]

Curccu, on 24 November 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

Quirks kinda fu**up that list of yours IMO, it's not that black and white.

No, it IS that black and white.

There are a very few specific IS variants which, if loaded exactly as per Paul's Quirk Cookbook, are very competitive with Clan Mechs. That compares to all the Clan Chassis, and all the Clan variants, which all benefit from all the listed benefits all of the time.

So, if an IS player is lucky enough to drop in a CW match with an entire team comprised of entirely of those few heavily-quirked IS variants, all loaded out exactly as per Paul's bizarre vision of balance, they are well-placed to defeat Clan opponents.

However, If the IS player drops into a match with the usual assorted array of IS Mechs, only a few of which are the specific heavily-quirked variants, against a Clan team - all of which by default have all of the benefits of all of the Clan tech - then the IS team is at a significant balance disadvantage.

[Repasy Cooper]

I would prefer to keep the locked Clan Omnimech features locked.

The Clan Battlemechs will have their debut next month, and those come with fully customizable unlocked features. I think it's best to keep Omnitech limited with the locked features. That way, there is no clear advantage between Omnitech and Battletech, each do their own thing well.

Eventually IS will get their own Omnimechs too, and those should have locked features as well.

[Stonefalcon]

Tesunie, on 20 November 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

Clan XL engines don't die when they lose a side torso, but weigh the same as IS XL engines.

All the benefits of XL with none of the drawbacks. They had to add in some kind of drawback for losing a side torso for clan XL engines. (Especially seen as the IIC mechs are soon to be released.)

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. Clans have locked equipment to counter a lot of their benefits, such as freedom of customization/hardpoints, typically better/lighter/fewer crit space gear, etc.



I also find it funny that you think clan mechs can't utilize ACs or other weapons besides lasers. My Thor (Summoner) would beg to differ. However, Lasers currently are registering damage better, and typically deal more damage per ton than other weapons systems. This combined with Clan double heat sinks being two crits, clan lasers having better ranges, weighing less and taking less crit spaces, with "free" XL engines (that are almost like standard engines)... Lasers are just more relevant than the other weapons. (Besides SSRM builds, typically.) ACs having a burst fire (which feels nice) makes them less efficient over IS ACs, which is why they are not taken as often.

The issue I have to raise here is specifically the locked components. You state that the smaller DHS, smaller weapons, lighter weapons, less consumed space for endo/ferro and the like are enough of an advantage to continue to nerf clans into the dust. But I argue, that these lighter/smaller components only really become an advantage if you can make a sizable tonnage change, such as upgrading the engine.

If PGI wants to nerf clan engines further because they are slightly more survivable at least allow clan pilots to change their engine sizes to the same degree IS pilots have. I actually have builds on my Dire Wolf that run at 90-97 tons because I consume all the crit slots available. I like the builds, I have no reason to change the builds, PGI wants to shoe-horn clanners into using all their tonnage by putting in Pulse lasers instead of Extra Range (LOL IS Quirks) lasers.

PGI can keep their locked hardpoints, those are there for a reason so there are no monsters like Gauszilla running amock for example, but I feel the engine lock is crippling clans more than people think, and the coming 20% speed reduction is just an extra nail in the coffin. I have to agree with another poster I read earlier, rather than nerf the efficiency of the engine, kill off half the internal heat sinks.

[Tesunie]

Stonefalcon, on 24 November 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

The issue I have to raise here is specifically the locked components. You state that the smaller DHS, smaller weapons, lighter weapons, less consumed space for endo/ferro and the like are enough of an advantage to continue to nerf clans into the dust. But I argue, that these lighter/smaller components only really become an advantage if you can make a sizable tonnage change, such as upgrading the engine.

If PGI wants to nerf clan engines further because they are slightly more survivable at least allow clan pilots to change their engine sizes to the same degree IS pilots have. I actually have builds on my Dire Wolf that run at 90-97 tons because I consume all the crit slots available. I like the builds, I have no reason to change the builds, PGI wants to shoe-horn clanners into using all their tonnage by putting in Pulse lasers instead of Extra Range (LOL IS Quirks) lasers.

PGI can keep their locked hardpoints, those are there for a reason so there are no monsters like Gauszilla running amock for example, but I feel the engine lock is crippling clans more than people think, and the coming 20% speed reduction is just an extra nail in the coffin. I have to agree with another poster I read earlier, rather than nerf the efficiency of the engine, kill off half the internal heat sinks.

Would you rather just die when you lose a side torso, like an IS XL equipped mech?

How else would you balance clan Omnitech and it's ability to change out hardpoints? The one less crit DHS saving you crit space? The Endo and Ferro that takes up 7 crit slots instead of 14 per upgrade (and FF also saves you more tonnage too, if I recall right)? Weapons that typically weigh less, take up fewer crit slots, have longer ranges?

A moderate 20% (that is what is being discussed, right?) reduction to a clan XL engine when a side torso is destroyed (not at the start of every match) is not unreasonable. Name a single IS mech that can survive a side torso destruction with an XL engine equipped? How about an IS mech that can change out it's hard points? Or can take 7 crit slot Endo and FF?


I'll say, I'm all for lore, but sometimes one must break away from lore (carefully) to help balance a game. TT is a great guide, but TT is not a first person, live action shooter video game. Thus, some rules will have to be adjusted accordingly. A moderate reduction to speed when 2 crits (about 20% (1/5) of a clan mech's engine if I did my math right) is destroyed isn't overly unreasonable. (The Clan XL is what is giving the TImberwolf it's speed, the Arctic Cheetah it's crazy survive-ability, the Direwolf it's massive amount of space for weapons, etc.)

If anything, I'd rather test these changes out live first (because they aren't in game yet, is it?) before I make any statement on if it sounds fair or not. However, I'd rather remove the penalty if it seems out of line rather than "unlock all clan Omni-mech's engines".

Also, as a final piece, consider what are considered the best mech of each weight class:
Light: Arctic Cheetah
Medium: Stormcrow
Heavy: Timberwolf
Assault: Stalker/Direwolf.

Solidly having 3 of four weight classes firmly under "clan control" for "best mech in the game" should be a problem. Assaults the only class where there is a bit of debate. (And honestly, every class should have a list of mechs competing for "best in class". No one mech should stand so far apart from the others. Thus, the attempt to balance.)


PS: When a clan mech loses a side torso currently in game, I do believe that they "lose half their in engine heatsinks" via a heat generation penalty of 10 heat being generated. It's been rather ineffective, as most mechs when they lose a side torso, also lose some/half/most of their weapons too, making the penalty inefficient.

[Tarl Cabot]

One question to be asked: if a locked component could be selected to be unlocked/removable, what would it be and on which omni, other than the engine and FF/Endo? Why would it benefit that mech?

Another question for the items that would not be unlocked such as FF/Endo how would distribute between the ST and arms for specific mechs and how would it benefit that mech?

[Khobai]

Tesunie, on 24 November 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Would you rather just die when you lose a side torso, like an IS XL equipped mech?

No I'd rather isxl be the same as cxl and neither having a speed penalty for losing a side torso. It's dumb for any mech to die to losing a side torso.

But that ship has sailed. Pgi obviously doesn't have the sense to make Isxl and cxl equal. So I'd like to see unlocked engine ratings for clan mechs like the kitfox and executioner otherwise those mechs are useless with the cxl side torso speed nerf.

Quote

How else would you balance clan Omnitech and it's ability to change out hardpoints? The one less crit DHS saving you crit.

Simple. Make IS endo and ferro better than clan versions. They take up way more crit slots so they should be better. Same with IS heatsinks. Clan tech should be more efficient and streamlined while is tech should be more extreme in cost/benefits. But neither should be inferior.

IS gauss should also be better than Clan gauss because it's 3 tons heavier. The only way you can have is and clan be balanced 1:1 is if equipment that costs more crits/tonnage is better than equipment that costs less

Buffing IS makes way more sense than Nerfing clans and doesn't result in certain clan mechs like the executioner being worthless. Nerfs just make clan mechs like the executioner unfun. Now not only does losing a side torso mean losing most of your weapons but you lose all your speed too. That's the worst nerf possible for the executioner, which wasn't even a top tier mech to begin with

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2015 - 10:26 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Also, as a final piece, consider what are considered the best mech of each weight class:
Light: Arctic Cheetah
Medium: Stormcrow
Heavy: Timberwolf
Assault: Stalker/Direwolf.

Solidly having 3 of four weight classes firmly under "clan control" for "best mech in the game" should be a problem. Assaults the only class where there is a bit of debate. (And honestly, every class should have a list of mechs competing for "best in class". No one mech should stand so far apart from the others. Thus, the attempt to balance.)

Then nerf THOSE mechs

It's idiotic to nerf ALL clan mechs especially ones that arnt that good

[Tesunie]

Clan XL engines are seen as too powerful. Even in the "worst" clan mech, they are much better than IS mechs without quirks.

Do recall that PGI is trying to reduce/remove many of the quirks that have brought some IS mechs up to clan fighting capabilities. Also do recall that when PGI tries to nerf "those mechs" that are deemed really good, everyone (not literally) complains about the nerf on "the mech I paid money for" (usually), they spout how useless that mech is, and yet continue to play that mech and remain rather powerful. Then, due to complaints, PGI sometimes reverts the changes because "the forums are on fire".


As far as changing some base technology mechanics, it's Battletech. It's how it's always been. Not just in this game. It wouldn't be a "Battletech/Mechwarrior" game without some of those mechanics being as they are. IS XL engines are one such point.

I personally am of the opinion of "Try it out first, then give more detailed feedback". It's okay to come out with a preliminary concept of the proposed change, but often times it's very worth at least giving it a try. It's only 20% of your speed, compared to your mech's destruction. You're losing about 20% of your mech's engine, so it isn't too far out of the realm of believe-ability to have speed reduced by it's damage.


PS: Proposing unlocking clan Omni-mech engine restrictions isn't a buff to just the under preforming mechs. It's a buff to ALL clan mechs. Which, as I mentioned, 3 out of 4 weight classes already have clan mechs strongly as the best mech in the game status.

Or, as someone else mentioned:

Tarl Cabot, on 24 November 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

One question to be asked: if a locked component could be selected to be unlocked/removable, what would it be and on which omni, other than the engine and FF/Endo? Why would it benefit that mech?

Another question for the items that would not be unlocked such as FF/Endo how would distribute between the ST and arms for specific mechs and how would it benefit that mech?

AKA: Make a more reasonable proposition.
Example: The Must Lynx is hindered and not a good preforming light mech. I suggest unlocking the CAP from it's head slot, so that the extra ton of weight can be better utilized. It's ECM/AMS arm could also possibly use 1 energy hardpoint, to make it more practical to take that omnipod.
Example of the opposite: We should have all equipment on clan mechs unlocked! The Mist Lynx really could use it's CAP unlocked! (Which provides counter argument of "then mechs such as the Timberwolf would become more powerful", which then spins off into "but the Nova could use to have some of it's DHS unlocked so it could better utilize the ballistic hard points it has." Which then spins to "We probably shouldn't due to lore and/or balance. Some components are locked for a reason, such as the JJs on the Timberwolf S becoming locked for balance within the game." Etc.)

Remain specific to a chassis. State what you feel is wrong with it. Mention why (in this case for clan) certain component(s) should become unlocked, how it would specifically be intended to help the chassis, and consider any possible considerations/points of how it might even unbalance the chassis in the game (aka: making it too powerful/weak).

I can't agree with clan engines becoming unlocked across all chassis because a possible speed nerf is coming when they become damaged and lose a side torso. That will end up being too much of a buff, and will only increase the power of all clan mechs. It doesn't restore a sense of balance between other chassis, making more mechs viable (on a general scale). Instead, it would just place already powerful and "best in game" clan chassis into an even more powerful position. (Example: Being able to reduce the engine size on the Timberwolf would permit it to equip even more weapons possibly, making it go from best in it's weight class, to so far ahead that no one can catch up to it. Sure, it could also help the Summoner, but not as much as it would the Timberwolf or Ebon Jaguar.)

Also, as a side note, depending upon what sizes are being able to be exchanged, suddenly your proposal would force clan omni-mechs to also unlock all heat sinks, as if you drop in engine size (your proposal with the Timberwolf being the example), you suddenly can't contain the proper number of heat sinks within your engine. (Which may, or may not, throw balance even farther out of order. Some mechs have locked heat sinks to maintain balance. If a specific chassis could benefit from unlocking a few heatsinks, it should be on an individual omni-pod/chassis scale, and considered to help balance a mech to increase diversity among all mechs. Much like individual quirks.)

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Those builds are absolutely terrible and non-competitive

And one uac5 is not a ballistic loadout. Try again.

A jägermech or cataphract can have 4 ac5s for example but a summoner never can.

And thats why is stopped MWO. Every player who does understand and know how to build mechs can see how all these "balance changes" just break more balance than generate. While all these who hardly know how to build mechs just play something, somewhow and call it "it works". And the game goes more and more into this direction because PGI starts catering these peoeple -.- And this causes more and more of the mechs I have to be useless while those changes now still allow to create "beasts" aongst the other sheeps. Such nonsense, I just went off the game and keep all the good memories of the past I had. Don't wanna add some of thse new incoming balances to my MWO exerience, since they just leave a bad taste in those memories. Too many obviously bad decisions are made that do not help the game at all. Mabye one day someone at PGI will finally see that balance in this game is matter of chassis not clan vs IS. Maybe that is the day we get proper changes, and maybe I come back given I even get any notice of these changes.

Tesunie is such a joke, but seems to be the kind of players PGI caters to. Good Luck mechwarriors out there, I envy those who can enjoy where the game goes. Because the point of a game is fun and joy. But it is unfun for me too see more and more mechs being reduced to pointless states while just a hand full of clanmechs are a true issue that should be fixed. I am at the point of what I missed when I started MWO: totally free mech customisation a la MW3. That would have it's own set of imblance but not as much as where the current system is going to.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 November 2015 - 02:00 AM.

[Stonefalcon]

Tesunie, on 24 November 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Would you rather just die when you lose a side torso, like an IS XL equipped mech?

How else would you balance clan Omnitech and it's ability to change out hardpoints? The one less crit DHS saving you crit space? The Endo and Ferro that takes up 7 crit slots instead of 14 per upgrade (and FF also saves you more tonnage too, if I recall right)? Weapons that typically weigh less, take up fewer crit slots, have longer ranges?

A moderate 20% (that is what is being discussed, right?) reduction to a clan XL engine when a side torso is destroyed (not at the start of every match) is not unreasonable. Name a single IS mech that can survive a side torso destruction with an XL engine equipped? How about an IS mech that can change out it's hard points? Or can take 7 crit slot Endo and FF?


I'll say, I'm all for lore, but sometimes one must break away from lore (carefully) to help balance a game. TT is a great guide, but TT is not a first person, live action shooter video game. Thus, some rules will have to be adjusted accordingly. A moderate reduction to speed when 2 crits (about 20% (1/5) of a clan mech's engine if I did my math right) is destroyed isn't overly unreasonable. (The Clan XL is what is giving the TImberwolf it's speed, the Arctic Cheetah it's crazy survive-ability, the Direwolf it's massive amount of space for weapons, etc.)

If anything, I'd rather test these changes out live first (because they aren't in game yet, is it?) before I make any statement on if it sounds fair or not. However, I'd rather remove the penalty if it seems out of line rather than "unlock all clan Omni-mech's engines".

Also, as a final piece, consider what are considered the best mech of each weight class:
Light: Arctic Cheetah
Medium: Stormcrow
Heavy: Timberwolf
Assault: Stalker/Direwolf.

Solidly having 3 of four weight classes firmly under "clan control" for "best mech in the game" should be a problem. Assaults the only class where there is a bit of debate. (And honestly, every class should have a list of mechs competing for "best in class". No one mech should stand so far apart from the others. Thus, the attempt to balance.)


PS: When a clan mech loses a side torso currently in game, I do believe that they "lose half their in engine heatsinks" via a heat generation penalty of 10 heat being generated. It's been rather ineffective, as most mechs when they lose a side torso, also lose some/half/most of their weapons too, making the penalty inefficient.

You're all for lore, that's fine, but given time and PGI's track record for balancing, soon were all going to be in commandos with a single medium laser.

[Nightshade24]

DivineEvil, on 21 November 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

What all of that even means? They're not forced, they're priveleged. Clan engines are not fit into the mechs, it's mechs, that are built around the engines. Simple as that.

So you are saying the IS need hardwired engines?

[Lily from animove]

Duke Nedo, on 22 November 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

This is the thing. I can't believe some guys cry about 20% speed/agility nerf on a ST loss instead of DEATH in this context. Unbelievable.

Spend your energy on trying to get help for the broken clan mechs instead. Unlocking endo/ff is something I find quite agreeable, only the HBR would become "the perfect mech", otherwise it would only have positive effects.

I also still advocate buffs for IS XL engines. Trade ST DEATH for a 30% penalty, and buff both clan and IS STD engines with durability. Tech balance would be in a much better place.

I can't believe that some are still unable to see that a mechs strenght is in its total composition. We have bad clanmechs because those clanmechs do have fixed pointless equipment that an IS pilot is not forced to use. We have clanmechs which bad chosen upgrades they cna ot change. An by this a lot IS mechs cna exceed thse clanmechs easily in their strenght. you cna make IS mechs lose BOTH torsi, clans can not. and techbalance will NOT work, because the construction rules the clanmechs have create HUGE gaps between the clanchassis (bigger than ebtween the IS chassis, since their only gap is the weapon hardpoints). And this imbalance between the clanmechs c
can only be solved with balancing chassis, NOT tech. general tech adjustments will make good clanmechs benefit exponentially better than bad clanmechs. And technerfs will strke the bad clanmechs harder than the good ones. Tech changes create more imbalance and not balance.

Too many IS gamers are just not able to see this, I just hope whenever PGI introduces Omnimechs for IS they keep the EXACT SAME CONSTRUCTION RULES. because only this seem to probably show some people how the same tech (so we have techbalance) does totally NOT balance anything. It sololy depends on whatever Battletech gave a single omnimech as equipment and mechshape by design if this mech will be good in MWO or not. If the IFR and MLX had construction rules and tech of the IS but weren'T omnies they would be so much more better even WITH "weak" IS XL's. But they are doomed the way BT designed them in conjunction with the MWO Omnimech construction rules.

And whoever thinks that techbalance will create more balance in MWO just fails to see the big pictures. tech balance will balance SOME of the Clanmechs to SOME of the IS mechs. But both sides will continue to have bad mechs compared to others within their own side. Because the biggets imbalancing factors atm are the chassis amongts each other, not the tech.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 November 2015 - 03:37 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Khobai, on 24 November 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

Then nerf THOSE mechs

It's idiotic to nerf ALL clan mechs especially ones that arnt that good

How would you tell what mech needs a nerf nad doesn't?

Direwolfs biggest weakness is speed- with the speed nerf it would suffer quite a bit. On top of that it is OP for the exact same reason most 95-100 ton mechs are. Which is the huge amount of firepower there is. There are times the kingcrab is superior to a Direwolf in some roles/ build types. There are times the atlas is superior in some roles and stuff (ie juggernaut).
One reason the Direwolf looks OP on the clan side is well.. just look at the clan assaults!....

Gargoyle.. 80 ton assault... yea... this thing is identical to a timberwolf with the worst aspects of a cataphract,commando, and atlas combined. For the trade off for carrying something like 1 more meta laser, and a bit more armour...
Warhawk... 85 ton assault... this thing struggles to perform with the Awesome at all due to the fact the awesome has superior quirks. Excluding splash damage which does nothing but tickle. The Awesome does the exact same damage or more per second than the warhawk does.... even though the awesome has 3 ppc's/ er ppc's while the warhawk has 4... (or can have 4), Simular situations apply to LRM's, lasers, etc.... The most meta warhawks out there have identical builds to the jagermech... which is a much lighter heavy mech for the IS and can even out do the warhawk sometimes. (for eg the dual gauss)
Executioner... 95 ton assault... here we got a mech that is significantly unique and has strong advantages- sadly those advantages are not meta at all.Which is jumpjets, MASC, etc... for the price of low hardpoints, and only able to put 2 more lasers over the timberwolf meta build... for the price of being 95 tons instead of 75 tons.

So here- you got the Direwolf... very open, not much hard wiring... etc... so it's easy to see how this thing is OP in comparison to literally the worst mech in game (gargoyle), it's more bulky brother that joined the gymnastic team and football team as the goaly (Executioner), and the Direwolfs own little brother who always did well in school but is socially awkward. (Warhawk)...
Why am I personifying all of these mechs- just no... don't ask... I do not know.

Nerf the direwolf and well- you killed the only 'viable' assault mech for the clans... unless the warhawk has quirks to have full 15 damage ER PPC's and nothing more for that weapon. Or the gargoyle has... ammo quirks?... acceleration quirks?.... range quirks?.... fire rate will not help on a mech struggling to have ammo to begin with....

Not saying it should ignore any nerf to begin with....

But I think all clan mechs would need this penalty but each mech gets it differently, for eg let's say the Hunchback IIC, Warhawk, Gargoyle, Mad Dog, Nova, Kitfox, etc. get barely any penalty. While the Direwolf, Hellbringer, Adder, Ice ferret, etc. get a minor penalty.
While timberwolf for eg, gets a large penalty,
Direwolfs main problem to compete with the other 2 100 tonners is the fact it is the slowest... and in most matches a lot of dires die by nascar... which can only be avoided if your team itself is slow, doesn't nascar, or you are in a 12 man who will never leave you behind.


I do wish that the IS get a simular penalty for a different reason.... the reason why this penalty is considered as it was part of heat scaling in TT... the hotter you are, the slower you get... this makes ST lose much more bigger for clans because all those lost heatsinks mean they will be generally slower in combat faster and more often than IS.... so, the fact I can't have a machine gun boat with a Clan XL engine with this penalty but a Medium pulse laser spamming thunderbolt has no penalty being at 98% heat for most of the fight does push me the wrong way....

[Lily from animove]

Nightshade24, on 25 November 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

How would you tell what mech needs a nerf nad doesn't?

Direwolfs biggest weakness is speed- with the speed nerf it would suffer quite a bit. On top of that it is OP for the exact same reason most 95-100 ton mechs are. Which is the huge amount of firepower there is. There are times the kingcrab is superior to a Direwolf in some roles/ build types. There are times the atlas is superior in some roles and stuff (ie juggernaut).
One reason the Direwolf looks OP on the clan side is well.. just look at the clan assaults!....

Gargoyle.. 80 ton assault... yea... this thing is identical to a timberwolf with the worst aspects of a cataphract,commando, and atlas combined. For the trade off for carrying something like 1 more meta laser, and a bit more armour...
Warhawk... 85 ton assault... this thing struggles to perform with the Awesome at all due to the fact the awesome has superior quirks. Excluding splash damage which does nothing but tickle. The Awesome does the exact same damage or more per second than the warhawk does.... even though the awesome has 3 ppc's/ er ppc's while the warhawk has 4... (or can have 4), Simular situations apply to LRM's, lasers, etc.... The most meta warhawks out there have identical builds to the jagermech... which is a much lighter heavy mech for the IS and can even out do the warhawk sometimes. (for eg the dual gauss)
Executioner... 95 ton assault... here we got a mech that is significantly unique and has strong advantages- sadly those advantages are not meta at all.Which is jumpjets, MASC, etc... for the price of low hardpoints, and only able to put 2 more lasers over the timberwolf meta build... for the price of being 95 tons instead of 75 tons.

So here- you got the Direwolf... very open, not much hard wiring... etc... so it's easy to see how this thing is OP in comparison to literally the worst mech in game (gargoyle), it's more bulky brother that joined the gymnastic team and football team as the goaly (Executioner), and the Direwolfs own little brother who always did well in school but is socially awkward. (Warhawk)...
Why am I personifying all of these mechs- just no... don't ask... I do not know.

And no tech balance which transfers the same change over all chasssis, will ever balance exactly those issues. I just wish PGI would finally realise this. But someone seems to follow a strange vision of bringing clan and IS tehc into a line, not allowing any other options.

[Nightshade24]

Lily from animove, on 25 November 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

And no tech balance which transfers the same change over all chasssis, will ever balance exactly those issues. I just wish PGI would finally realise this. But someone seems to follow a strange vision of bringing clan and IS tehc into a line, not allowing any other options.

I think the best way to balance IS to Clans is to first balance Clans against other clans first.With most hopefully be quirks which in some cases could un-nerf their tech. For eg mad dog able to min range LRM's. Adder/ summoner/ warhawk having more than 10 damage (no splash) with ER PPC. etc.

After this- it will be easier to balance clans with IS. I personally think most of the upper end clan mechs are on par with the IS mechs when you ignore the meta stick telling you how it should or shouldn't be. Won't be ever perfectly balance but PGI can always try to achieve a perfect imbalance.

[Tesunie]

First note: Balance is great, but it will probably never be achieved perfectly. Not unless we bring everything to a mirror balance. Any form of asymmetric balance will almost always lead to some imbalance. But perfectly mirrored balance ends up stale and boring.

Continuing on from there...

Stonefalcon, on 25 November 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

You're all for lore, that's fine, but given time and PGI's track record for balancing, soon were all going to be in commandos with a single medium laser.

Not really just for lore. I want lore influence, yes. But, being the nature of the type of game, some objects will have to leave lore behind a little.

I'm far more for "trying it out first, then coming back with feedback with experience behind it". Maybe 20% speed nerf when a side torso is destroyed is too much. Maybe it feels right. Don't know until it's tested.

As far as the current discussion, I'd like to refer you to all the whine threads about "Arctic Cheeters", otherwise properly known as Arctic Cheetahs. Most everyone's problem is with it's survivability, in part due to it's clan XL engine. Most every tale of woe I hear starts with "there was an Arctic Cheeter as the last remaining enemy mech, who was already down a side torso and wouldn't die very easily". The key word here is "down a side torso". If it was any IS light mech with an XL engine, it would have been dead before hand...

Lily from animove, on 25 November 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

I can't believe that some are still unable to see that a mechs strenght is in its total composition. We have bad clanmechs because those clanmechs do have fixed pointless equipment that an IS pilot is not forced to use. We have clanmechs which bad chosen upgrades they cna ot change. An by this a lot IS mechs cna exceed thse clanmechs easily in their strenght. you cna make IS mechs lose BOTH torsi, clans can not. and techbalance will NOT work, because the construction rules the clanmechs have create HUGE gaps between the clanchassis (bigger than ebtween the IS chassis, since their only gap is the weapon hardpoints). And this imbalance between the clanmechs c
can only be solved with balancing chassis, NOT tech. general tech adjustments will make good clanmechs benefit exponentially better than bad clanmechs. And technerfs will strke the bad clanmechs harder than the good ones. Tech changes create more imbalance and not balance.

I'm more or less with you on some of these points. If you feel a specific chassis has an issue, present that issue, develop concepts to correct said issue, and be open to counter points on how that change may alter game balance in ways you did not consider.

I could easily agree making some of the clan's under preforming mechs to gain a few unlocked equipment slots. I would like it to be considered carefully, and I wouldn't be opposed to the possibility. I do wish for mech flavor to be kept in mind, but many mechs could have some equipment unlocked without losing any character. (Example: Mist Lynx and unlocking the CAP from it's head. It's a reasonable suggestion to try from my perspective. The Kitfox S could also probably use to have a few side torso slots unlocked, or movable about the chassis if not truly unlocked, as this could permit it to take two higher mounted ballistics, besides a MG only in one side torso.)


I still feel that many of the under preforming clan mechs are under valued, and that they are still often more powerful than many of their IS counterparts (especially if you consider things without quirks). I've done very well in a stock Nova when it was a trial mech in live combat. It could use some help in comparison to the Stormcrow, but it still held it's own if it was used carefully.

[Lugh]

Livewyr, on 22 November 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

As much as it would help the crap clan mechs, it would make the competitive ones literal gods.

Configurable Hardpoints and adjustable clan XLs = wtf.

Remember that when PGI rolls out the LFE engine to the IS... k?

Oh wait you don't even have to wait that long. The IICs are going to blow your mind.

[Tesunie]

Lugh, on 25 November 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Remember that when PGI rolls out the LFE engine to the IS... k?

Oh wait you don't even have to wait that long. The IICs are going to blow your mind.

IICs can't adjust their hardpoints, just FYI.

But yeah. I'm kinda curious how IIC mechs are going to work. Clan tech on standard mechs. We will just have to wait and see I guess.

[Lily from animove]

Tesunie, on 25 November 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

First note: Balance is great, but it will probably never be achieved perfectly. Not unless we bring everything to a mirror balance. Any form of asymmetric balance will almost always lead to some imbalance. But perfectly mirrored balance ends up stale and boring.

Continuing on from there...



Not really just for lore. I want lore influence, yes. But, being the nature of the type of game, some objects will have to leave lore behind a little.

I'm far more for "trying it out first, then coming back with feedback with experience behind it". Maybe 20% speed nerf when a side torso is destroyed is too much. Maybe it feels right. Don't know until it's tested.

As far as the current discussion, I'd like to refer you to all the whine threads about "Arctic Cheeters", otherwise properly known as Arctic Cheetahs. Most everyone's problem is with it's survivability, in part due to it's clan XL engine. Most every tale of woe I hear starts with "there was an Arctic Cheeter as the last remaining enemy mech, who was already down a side torso and wouldn't die very easily". The key word here is "down a side torso". If it was any IS light mech with an XL engine, it would have been dead before hand...



I'm more or less with you on some of these points. If you feel a specific chassis has an issue, present that issue, develop concepts to correct said issue, and be open to counter points on how that change may alter game balance in ways you did not consider.

I could easily agree making some of the clan's under preforming mechs to gain a few unlocked equipment slots. I would like it to be considered carefully, and I wouldn't be opposed to the possibility. I do wish for mech flavor to be kept in mind, but many mechs could have some equipment unlocked without losing any character. (Example: Mist Lynx and unlocking the CAP from it's head. It's a reasonable suggestion to try from my perspective. The Kitfox S could also probably use to have a few side torso slots unlocked, or movable about the chassis if not truly unlocked, as this could permit it to take two higher mounted ballistics, besides a MG only in one side torso.)


I still feel that many of the under preforming clan mechs are under valued, and that they are still often more powerful than many of their IS counterparts (especially if you consider things without quirks). I've done very well in a stock Nova when it was a trial mech in live combat. It could use some help in comparison to the Stormcrow, but it still held it's own if it was used carefully.

The Nova does good in the game becasue MM is not giving truly equal opponents. thats why good pilots have good results in a NVA. But when you have set up a game between good skilled players 12vs12 there is no real competitive place for NVA.

As we had the chassis challange it showed very well what caps mechs were likely to be reach when the higher skilled pilots used them.

And we gave all the feedback and what we wanted to create more balance, yet we have gotten totally different and partially unneeded stuff (like said leg HP buff, no one EVER requested, and which the mech never needed). I guess with phase 4 too many now just stop caring anymor,e becasue we gave feedback and it seemed not to be heard, instead the steamtrain seems to continue unstoppable to whatever strange goal someone at PGI has set up. One of the reaosn why some now jump off this train, because it does not lead us to a plce that seems to be better.