68 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

UPDATE:
Mission Accomplished : http://mwomercs.com/...march-road-map/




---> The info on game mechanics that i'm using is very old, so this whole thread might be incorrect <---

Source for current game mechanics: http://mwomercs.com/...ement-behavior/

Alright, so now everyone is aware of the changes in PTS4 that are going to go live early December.
The changes mostly include reductions to mech skill tree boosts to a mech's agility such as turn rate, acceleration and deceleration, etc.

One of the things that is going to be indirectly affected by these changes is how hill climb mechanic currently affects mechs in the game. The large number of clutter and small details on the ground with collision meshes slow down larger mechs to a nearly halt speed. With the agility nerfs, assaults (which were already hit by the nerfs) will have an even harder time recovering from those halts.

The current system only works by measuring the slope of the terrain mesh at every given time.
As an example, comparison between a locust and a direwolf in the current hill climb mechanics is shown here:



As you can see, the mechs speed reduction is affected by the terrain slope the mech is walking on. Lots of small and tiny clutter with collision boxes on maps can cause alot of sharp slopes, which combined with the usual rubber-banding in the game can cause a situation like this:



The problem here is that the system assumes the mech to be a rigid box, over-simplifying this mechanic, disregarding the mech stride length and height!, Hitting assault mechs hard in the movement department (assaults are already slow and clumsy... because they are assaults).
a 100 ton mech should be able to step over anything smaller than a small building:




Suggestion:
in order to take the stride length and height into account, one can define a stride boundary limit for each mech, which defines an allowable area a mech can step on things. if the terrain collision box crosses this boundary, then you can apply the current mechanic in order to calculate speed reduction, and possibly halt.
However, if the terrain collision meshes all reside in the boundary, then there should not be any speed reduction in any situation as demonstrated below:





Some examples:





Obviously, a dire wolf should have higher stride boundary than that of the locust, because of its size... so it should be able to clear out most of the obstacles!
Also, an atlas should have the largest boundary between the 100 ton mechs.. because its a humanoid.
Note that the locust in the above picture will halt to a full stop on the 80 degree slope, while the dire does not even see it.
Meanwhile, an atlas as a humanoid plantigrade should be able to step over all!

I like to hear you opinion regarding this suggestion!



I say again, the current mechanics may be different from what i assumed... so please correct me if i'm wrong!

Edited by Navid A1, 09 March 2016 - 06:17 PM.

[El Bandito]

All I can say is, that the Assaults should be able to travel over small obstacles. In fact it should be reverse--larger mechs should be able to travel over obstacles, while smaller mechs should not be able to, and must rely on their speed to go around it.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 November 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Well, to make things even more complicated, you could also address leg types.

The reverse canted plantigrade of a Chicken walker is actually inferior for clearing hurdles to a Digitigrade or a true Plantigrade.

(TBH, the traditional "2 joint" chicken walker is absolutely horrible form of locomotion...probably why it doesn't exist in nature)

What's funny is the number of nitwits who have tried to argue this over the years, despite all the biomimetic and robotics engineers of the world..and well, nature, proving otherwise. But Ed209 and Robotech made it popular, so rule of cool overrides common sense (and truth to tell, I do like the way Regault Pods moved in Macross, too)

The Digitigrade as seen on mechs like the Thanatos and Nova Cat, actually have some of the best impact absorption, too and would be ideal for jumping Mechs. More so than plantigrade, and doubly over reverse plantigrades.

humanoid plantigrade, in these applications would likely have the best obstacle clearance while walking, hill climb would probably favor Digitigrades (as seen in nature, as most climbers are indeed digitigrade) and the Chicken Walker the worst (because in reality, any steep incline, it would fall over backwards and turtle.... and it's ability to step over obstacles would not be much better)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 November 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[adamts01]

This makes too much sense to implement. Start over, maybe with insane nerfs and buffs.

Edited by adamts01, 22 November 2015 - 11:10 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

adamts01, on 22 November 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

This makes too much sense to implement. Start over, maybe with insane nerds and buffs.

this is a gaming forum, it's chock full of insane nerds. Probably not too many of them are buff, despite what they claim though.

[adamts01]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 November 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

this is a gaming forum, it's chock full of insane nerds. Probably not too many of them are buff, despite what they claim though.

Oops. Typing on a phone sucks. Meant to say "nerfs"

[Cyborne Elemental]

I've been hoping for a change to slope tolerances forever now.

Even if it was assigned to the "HillClimb" module only, something needs to be done about getting stuck on every single stupid pebble and prop in this game.

[LordKnightFandragon]

For stepping to be proper, we would need our mechs to STEP instead of thousands of slight little skips.....

Mechs like the Dire Wolf skip instead of Walk. As odd as this might be to say, Mechwarrior 2, that old 1995 or w/e game, THAT is how mechs should walk.....lift the leg, step, lift the leg, step, lift the leg, step....

its not hip, hop, hip, hop, hip, hop like MWO mechs do...

Ofc, that might interfere with Nascar Warrior Online and the 215KPH light mechs, but yeah.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 22 November 2015 - 11:25 PM.

[Navid A1]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 November 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

Well, to make things even more complicated, you could also address leg types.

The reverse canted plantigrade of a Chicken walker is actually inferior for clearing hurdles to a Digitigrade or a true Plantigrade.

(TBH, the traditional "2 joint" chicken walker is absolutely horrible form of locomotion...probably why it doesn't exist in nature)

What's funny is the number of nitwits who have tried to argue this over the years, despite all the biomimetic and robotics engineers of the world..and well, nature, proving otherwise. But Ed209 and Robotech made it popular, so rule of cool overrides common sense (and truth to tell, I do like the way Regault Pods moved in Macross, too)

The Digitigrade as seen on mechs like the Thanatos and Nova Cat, actually have some of the best impact absorption, too and would be ideal for jumping Mechs. More so than plantigrade, and doubly over reverse plantigrades.

humanoid plantigrade, in these applications would likely have the best obstacle clearance while walking, hill climb would probably favor Digitigrades (as seen in nature, as most climbers are indeed digitigrade) and the Chicken Walker the worst (because in reality, any steep incline, it would fall over backwards and turtle.... and it's ability to step over obstacles would not be much better)

Added (exaggerated) atlas suggestion

Edited by Navid A1, 22 November 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[Chrome Magnus]

Yeah, I watched some newer player stuck in a Banshee on Bog the other day. He couldn't get enough momentum to make it up the first step and was surrounded by low ground roots. Sure a more experienced pilot could have found the angle and got out but he wasn't having any luck and the enemy doesn't grant time to figure it out. I tried to cover him/talk him out but needless to say he died and was pretty frustrated with what really are stupid game mechanics/clutter.

[Sarlic]

Chrome Magnus, on 22 November 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

Yeah, I watched some newer player stuck in a Banshee on Bog the other day. He couldn't get enough momentum to make it up the first step and was surrounded by low ground roots. Sure a more experienced pilot could have found the angle and got out but he wasn't having any luck and the enemy doesn't grant time to figure it out. I tried to cover him/talk him out but needless to say he died and was pretty frustrated with what really are stupid game mechanics/clutter.

Or what about the rediculous building hitboxes. You walk into it or want to go in cover you warp like few times. Like the buildings have collisions as well.

Edited by Sarlic, 23 November 2015 - 12:33 AM.

[STEF_]

What about giving us back the mech-terrain interaction too?

[Idealsuspect]

Navid A1, on 22 November 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

---> The info on game mechanics that i'm using is very old, so this whole thread might be incorrect <---

Alright, so now everyone is aware of the changes in PTS4 that are going to go live early December.
The changes mostly include reductions to mech skill tree boosts to a mech's agility such as turn rate, acceleration and deceleration, etc.

One of the things that is going to be indirectly affected by these changes is the hill climb mechanic currently present in the game and how it interacts with collision meshes in most maps. As you may know, there are a lot of clutter and small details in each map that happen to have a collision mesh which can affect mech movement.

http://mwomercs.com/...ement-behavior/
As an example, comparison between a locust and a direwolf in the current hill climb mechanics is shown here:



As you can see, the mechs speed reduction is affected by the terrain slope the mech is walking on. Lots of small and tiny clutter with collision boxes on maps can cause alot of sharp slopes, which combined with the usual rubber-banding in the game can cause a situation like this:



The problem here is that the system assumes the mech to be a rigid box, over-simplifying this mechanic, disregarding the mech stride length and height!, Hitting assault mechs hard in the movement department (assaults are already slow and clumsy... because they are assaults).
a 100 ton mech should be able to step over anything smaller than a small building:




Suggestion:
in order to take the stride length and height into account, one can define a stride boundary limit for each mech, which defines an allowable area a mech can step on things. if the terrain collision box crosses this boundary, then you can apply the current mechanic in order to calculate speed reduction, and possibly halt.
However, if the terrain collision meshes all reside in the boundary, then there should not be any speed reduction in any situation!





Obviously, a dire wolf should higher stride boundary than that of the locust, because of its size... so it should be able to clear out most of the obstacles!
Also, an atlas should have the largest boundary between the 100 ton mechs.. because its a humanoid.
Note that the locust in the above picture will halt to a full stop on the 80 degree slope, while the dire does not even see it... while the atlas as a humanoid plantigrade can step over all!

I like to hear you opinion regarding this suggestion!



I say again, the current mechanics may be different from what i assumed... so please correct me if i'm wrong!

This guy is a genius. nice post.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 23 November 2015 - 01:27 AM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Is this what you tested in your free time on the PTS when we weren't grouped up? lmao Great work man, and I agree with everything you said.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Is this what you tested in your free time on the PTS when we weren't grouped up? lmao Great work man, and I agree with everything you said.

[arkani]

cool math...
PGI will not implement this because its too much math and makes their poor heads hurt...

Edited by arkani, 23 November 2015 - 01:45 AM.

[Navid A1]

arkani, on 23 November 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

cool math...
PGI will not implement this because its too much math and makes their poor heads hurt...

Just tweeted Russ about this.
He missed the point on his first response.

Hope he reads my clarification!

[FupDup]

The reason that PGI made small mechs climb better than big mechs is because the entire purpose that small mechs exist for is to be more agile and maneuverable than big mechs. Big mechs get more guns and armor instead.

I would rather loosen up the current climbing system instead of making assault mechs superior at climbing slopes than lights. Mobility should remain as the domain of the lower weight classes.

For example, most slopes should not make the mech come to a complete stop (which they currently cause), just slow down a bit like Mechwarrior 4. Only really really steep things should cause outright stopping.

Edited by FupDup, 23 November 2015 - 08:30 PM.

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 23 November 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

The reason that PGI made small mechs climb better than big mechs is because the entire purpose that small mechs exist for is to be more agile and maneuverable than big mechs. Big mechs get more guns and armor instead.
...

Well the lights have superior speed, accel/deccel and turn rate. This suggestion does not change that!

FupDup, on 23 November 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

...
I would rather loosen up the current climbing system instead of making assault mechs superior at climbing slopes than lights. Mobility should remain as the domain of the lower weight classes...

This will not make assaults superior at climbing hills. Lights will still have superior climb angle without speed reduction.
The only thing that is affected here is preventing lights from passing vertical slopes as high as their entire height... while preventing a 100 ton mech to come to a full halt on a puny car.
Keep in mind that the assaults are larger in size, have larger stride lengths and heights... and because they are assaults, they are already going to be slow as F* in accelerating and turning.... that is where the lights have an edge!

FupDup, on 23 November 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

...
For example, most slopes should not make the mech come to a complete stop (which they currently cause), just slow down a bit like Mechwarrior 4. Only really really steep things should cause outright stopping.

That can only work if the collision mesh resolution is drastically reduced... The problem here is the resolution of the collision mesh. A lot of near vertical micro-slopes on the ground, causing large mechs to constantly move at a reduced speed or being halted.

Edited by Navid A1, 23 November 2015 - 08:44 PM.

[kanamisan]

FupDup, on 23 November 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

The reason that PGI made small mechs climb better than big mechs is because the entire purpose that small mechs exist for is to be more agile and maneuverable than big mechs. Big mechs get more guns and armor instead.

I would rather loosen up the current climbing system instead of making assault mechs superior at climbing slopes than lights. Mobility should remain as the domain of the lower weight classes.

For example, most slopes should not make the mech come to a complete stop (which they currently cause), just slow down a bit like Mechwarrior 4. Only really really steep things should cause outright stopping.

the point of this is not about the natural slope of the map, but the rocks that litter the map and cause assaults to randomly stop for what they should autoclear. needless to say, I do think the op has a good point, and I do feel it could add something.