65 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

adamts01, on 26 November 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

It was mainly doa because of a lack of energy points. With ballistics and missiles having a bigger role it'll probably be better.

Im looking forward to its agility quirks + srm brawling vs less agile mechs. Could be good, but im not expecting much.

Gonna get a Summoner-C for the turning quirks and try jumpsniping in it.

[Kira Onime]

Summoner also has a problem with lack of tonnage to compete with top mechs atm.
Yeah it has 21 tons but it's ~7tons less than an EBJ or TBR

[Ghogiel]

adamts01, on 26 November 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

It was mainly doa because of a lack of energy points. With ballistics and missiles having a bigger role it'll probably be better.

It'll be worse off in an brawl environment if it tries to out do real brawler mechs at their own game. It just can't mix laser and SRMs well. Dem hard points :<

InspectorG, on 26 November 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

Gonna get a Summoner-C for the turning quirks and try jumpsniping in it.

this is where I think it's getting crapped on the most. The gauss being nerfed as hard as it is and ppcs being what they are... it's better in the live game now as a poptart than what it will be after the next quirkening.

[InspectorG]

Ghogiel, on 26 November 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

It'll be worse off in an brawl environment if it tries to out do real brawler mechs at their own game. It just can't mix laser and SRMs well. Dem hard points :<


this is where I think it's getting crapped on the most. The gauss being nerfed as hard as it is and ppcs being what they are... it's better in the live game now as a poptart than what it will be after the next quirkening.

Ive been playing with UAC10+ERPPC...not as good jumpsniping but decent at corner peeking in Solo.

2ERPPC is gonna be too hot and too low.

My generic lazor vomit of 2LPL+2ERML likely wont be any better after the pass.

Meh. Meh. And more meh.

[Moomtazz]

How much does the difference in speed between the IS and Clan play? That Black Knight was running 73 kph vs the Twolf 89 kph. It certainly looked like the BK had the edge in a brawl but would you call them even overall if you account for the speed difference?

[Aresye]

Moomtazz, on 26 November 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

How much does the difference in speed between the IS and Clan play? That Black Knight was running 73 kph vs the Twolf 89 kph. It certainly looked like the BK had the edge in a brawl but would you call them even overall if you account for the speed difference?

We'll have to see. Personally, with the exception of lights, I don't think speed plays too big of a balance factor other than helping teams stick together and focus firepower (ex: most Clan mechs running 89kph).

I think with the structure buffs, weapon quirks, and previous hitbox adjustments, the Black Knight will end up being a better choice than the TBR in the end, at least when it comes to two equally skilled opponents.

[Lucian Nostra]

Interesting video, thanks for the pts4 take away. Gives a lot to think on what the future meta will be if these changes go through

[adamts01]

Aresye Kerensky, on 26 November 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

We'll have to see. Personally, with the exception of lights, I don't think speed plays too big of a balance factor other than helping teams stick together and focus firepower (ex: most Clan mechs running 89kph).

For me, speed is crucial in pug drops. Staying in good position when everyone is running around all crazy is a challenge. As you get more coordinated it seems to matter less, you're much less likely to he left behind.

[SpiralFace]

Aresye Kerensky, on 26 November 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

We'll have to see. Personally, with the exception of lights, I don't think speed plays too big of a balance factor other than helping teams stick together and focus firepower (ex: most Clan mechs running 89kph).

Thats actually a HUGE factor in team based fights though.

In 1v1 duals, speed doesn't matter much unless there is a HUGE gulf in KpH difference (like a 40-50 kph difference.) But in team fights, speed is life, and the ability to re-position and more importantly, disengage with an opponent is a major factor and is why the clan power creep is a very sever issue.

I think Black knight will be better then it is now, but it still has a series of drawbacks compared to the T-wolf including:

• No JJ's
  
• Not as fast
  
• Almost exclusively low mounted weapons (especially for its main armament weapons,
  
• A fairly big frontal profile that allows you to pick out individual coponents easily.

It will be much better then where it is now, but I think verdict will still be out as to if it will be "superior" to the timber-wolf in a 12 v 12 environment, which is much different to a "dueling" environment.

[EGG]

Thanks for putting this up, MWO has a bit of a shortage of youtube content covering tactics/weaponry changes in the manner that a number of other online games have (eg Magz for warthunder, WarOwl for CSGO).

[Aresye]

SpiralFace, on 26 November 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

Thats actually a HUGE factor in team based fights though.

In 1v1 duals, speed doesn't matter much unless there is a HUGE gulf in KpH difference (like a 40-50 kph difference.) But in team fights, speed is life, and the ability to re-position and more importantly, disengage with an opponent is a major factor and is why the clan power creep is a very sever issue.

I think Black knight will be better then it is now, but it still has a series of drawbacks compared to the T-wolf including:

• No JJ's
  
• Not as fast
  
• Almost exclusively low mounted weapons (especially for its main armament weapons,
  
• A fairly big frontal profile that allows you to pick out individual coponents easily.

It will be much better then where it is now, but I think verdict will still be out as to if it will be "superior" to the timber-wolf in a 12 v 12 environment, which is much different to a "dueling" environment.

And what about the TBR's drawbacks?

- HUGE side torsos that are easy to hit, resulting in a -20% reduction in speed, maneuverability, and a heat penalty.
- Less internal structure than the Black Knight.
- Laser duration and cooldown nerfs for any omnipods with 2 or more energy mounts.
- Longer duration lasers that are more susceptible to spread damage and require more face time.

Also forgot to mention, but the whole new aspect to losing a side torso essentially takes away the entire concept of having a shield side to soak damage, which is practically necessary in higher tier and competitive play.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 27 November 2015 - 10:33 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Aresye Kerensky, on 27 November 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

- Laser duration and cooldown nerfs for any omnipods with 2 or more energy mounts.
- Longer duration lasers that are more susceptible to spread damage and require more face time.

This is thrown around a bit, but false in a quirkless environment.
Does the BK get duration quirks? Timby can have negative ones, I'd have to Math that.

Natively, only the isMPL and isLPL beat Clam lasers in damage/tick.

[Aresye]

Mcgral18, on 27 November 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

This is thrown around a bit, but false in a quirkless environment.
Does the BK get duration quirks? Timby can have negative ones, I'd have to Math that.

Natively, only the isMPL and isLPL beat Clam lasers in damage/tick.

The BL-7-KNT-L gets a 20% energy range quirk, a -15% laser duration quirk, and a -10% energy heat gen quirk, on top of 20% torso yaw speed, +23 CT, +16 L/R torso, +12 L/R arm, and +16 L/R leg structure.

[Mcgral18]

Aresye Kerensky, on 27 November 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

The BL-7-KNT-L gets a 20% energy range quirk, a -15% laser duration quirk, and a -10% energy heat gen quirk, on top of 20% torso yaw speed, +23 CT, +16 L/R torso, +12 L/R arm, and +16 L/R leg structure.

So, a 9% nega-quirked Timby would have cERMLs with 0.558 Dam/tick, while the BKnight would have isMLs with .65 Dam/tick


It wins. Without considering LPLs or other firepower (the isLPL wins pretty severely natively, in comparison to others)

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 27 November 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

So, a 9% nega-quirked Timby would have cERMLs with 0.558 Dam/tick, while the BKnight would have isMLs with .65 Dam/tick


It wins. Without considering LPLs or other firepower (the isLPL wins pretty severely natively, in comparison to others)

Which kinda hits on the crux of the issue with quirks. It becomes balanced by 'this one time in band camp' stuff. So the BK in close range with a nega-quirked TW using a STD (not an XL) is going to do more laservomit damage.... so thus BALANCE!

No. You get 1 variant of 1 chassis that does that with 1 loadout in 1 situation. All this does is create yet another outlier that complicates actual game balance. It is the exact opposite of a solution - it is the creation of more barriers to a solution.

[Memnon Valerius Thrax]

i asked Jordan Weisman.
He cant understand why quirks exist.
He had a wonder formula.

Its called BV.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 27 November 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Which kinda hits on the crux of the issue with quirks. It becomes balanced by 'this one time in band camp' stuff. So the BK in close range with a nega-quirked TW using a STD (not an XL) is going to do more laservomit damage.... so thus BALANCE!

No. You get 1 variant of 1 chassis that does that with 1 loadout in 1 situation. All this does is create yet another outlier that complicates actual game balance. It is the exact opposite of a solution - it is the creation of more barriers to a solution.

Don't forget pretty much all Clan lasers (including the CERML) are getting their max ranges nerfed as well.

My problem with quirks is that those, "1 situations," do end up being game breaking in terms of balance when they do come up, and that's a problem.

For example, about a month ago my Clan was playing in NBT. We were defending against a planetary assault, and the attacking force chose Alpine Peaks as their LZ.

We had a bunch of meta Clan mechs including EBJs, HBRs, and TBRs, in addition to a few salvaged IS mechs, mostly Firestarters and Wolverines.

The enemy team brought 4 TDR-5SS and 4 RVN-4X, all with ERLL.

There was NOTHING we could do. Both the TDR-5SS and RVN-4X outranged our CERLLs by at least a couple hundred meters, even with the range 5 modules and a targeting computer.

First game we tried to play range. They scratched us down to our internals before any of them were red. Second game we used cover and maneuvered to the closest we could get before pushing to get into our meta range of 600-900m. We were cored by the time we got into range. Third game we took some of our salvaged IS mechs to prevent losing more of our better Clan mechs, including the SHD-2K. Lo and behold, the SHD-2K ranges with its ERLL still couldn't come close to what the TDR-5SS and RVN-4X could do.

All 3 games 0-8. Both teams were of similar skilled players, in which we've beaten them many times before, and they've beaten us many times as well.

[Calcite]

Good video
Would be good if we could test PST little longer, because if they can make all negative quirk for Clan mechs go away.
Then u dont have to make so big % change on the game like changing between what is (or deciding what is meta) metamechs.

[Deathlike]

You know.. technically PGI could actually add negative max range quirks to chassis that get general range quirks. It does sound like Lostech though.

However, you honestly can't/shouldn't complain that much about the CERMED max range nerf when the weapon itself costs 1 ton and 1 crit... while the IS's closest weapon to it is the IS LL.. which requires significantly more (5 tons, 2 crits).

Edited by Deathlike, 27 November 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Calcite]

Im sure u know everything. (not sure if the will wipe the quarks on next patch.)

But if you go with lets say a negative quirk on a mech. It would make you think, this is in some way better.
Lates take a clanLL on -2,5% on range as example. New player would think, what is this.