54 replies to this topic

[Xione87]

But look on the positive side: Since mech skills are no longer worth it you don't have to bother mastering them anymore! This means you need less CBills overall (don't bother with 3 variants). And since XP is now useless so does the value of premium time drop considerably for new players!

And the winner of the "Shotgun to my own foot" award goes to... PGI!

All sarcasm aside, changing agility skills to 2,5% and still leaving that infernal pinpoint skill unchanged does feel like PGI is playing a prank on us...

[Rogue Jedi]

Troutmonkey, on 29 November 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

Your profile says you've been playing since 2011, so it's amazing that you don't remember how slow mechs and what not moved back then.

they did not move back then, not in MWO anyway, Closed beta started in May 2012

[Void Angel]

You can apply as many subjective pejoratives as you wish - in no way does real world expenditure mean that the game cannot be altered. The whole "reduced investment" argument is inherently invalid - online games always change over time - and people should stop making it. The skill tree bonuses you're worried about aren't even the significant ones! They're the ones that experienced players get just to reach Speed Tweak and doubled heat bonuses. For that matter, no amount of high-handed ex cathedra pronouncements about how "noticeable" you think the typical player will find those skills, the fact of the matter is that 5% is still 5% - and that the doubled heat capacity, turning, and cooling buffs are well worth the time investment, as is speed tweak.

No one is being "punished" by these changes - the difference between new players and experienced players is being shortened, that's all. Everyone else is playing on the same field, other than those taking up new 'mechs; the previously huge disparity between mastered and unmastered 'mechs was a design flaw that has long needed correcting - it's not a punishment.

PS: I would be amazed if PGI reverts these changes; they may completely revamp the skill trees (as they've been talking about possibly doing,) but they're not going to revert the changes while the issues the changes address still exist.

[Cynosure]

Nedolon, on 04 December 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Of course i feel punished as well...

You're not being punished. You're being gypped.

Nedolon, on 04 December 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

...but it is something i really expected (also the change of starter-tier). They are expecting a huge amount of new players, that will all start with fresh, unleveled mechs, mostly trial-mechs. Since all will play in the same pool, more players would stop after 1 or 2 days without those changes. They need to make them feel better at the start.

So, make the new players feel better by drastically diminishing the returns on money and time investments made by the old players? If a big business treated its customer base like this, and if those customers had the clout and resources, there would be a class-action lawsuit against that business. But, of course, this is just a game, for entertainment purposes, so we must accept it. Or must we? After all, MWO is a business, and we are paying customers... !

[Cynosure]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

You can apply as many subjective pejoratives as you wish - in no way does real world expenditure mean that the game cannot be altered. The whole "reduced investment" argument is inherently invalid - online games always change over time - and people should stop making it.

Well, of course there is change over the course of the life of a massively-multiplayer online game. (What, do you think MWO is the first and only one I've played?) But those changes should be subtle and gradual, not drastic and heavy-handed. Especially when those changes affect something that required players to spend lots of real-world money and time to acquire.

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

For that matter, no amount of high-handed ex cathedra pronouncements about how "noticeable" you think the typical player will find those skills, the fact of the matter is that 5% is still 5%.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. The fact of the matter is, 5% is a quarter (not even half) of 20%.

Or look at it this way: A landlord offers a four-bedroom apartment. You pay up and move in and become comfortable. Later, the landlord comes along and says, "To make room for new tenants, I'm reducing your four-bedroom to a one-bedroom." What will be your reaction to that? "Oh, well! One bedroom is still one bedroom" ...?!

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

No one is being "punished" by these changes - the difference between new players and experienced players is being shortened, that's all. Everyone else is playing on the same field, other than those taking up new 'mechs; the previously huge disparity between mastered and unmastered 'mechs was a design flaw that has long needed correcting - it's not a punishment.

I don't think I'm being punished; I think I'm being gypped. This "previously huge disparity", this "design flaw that has long needed correcting", is something that's being amended at my expense. As I said, this smacks of developer incompetence and insensitivity.

Edited by Cynosure, 06 December 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Void Angel]

PPS: While the pilot skills involving maneuverability and mobility have been changed, many 'mechs have received vastly improved quirks to their twist rates, accel/decel, and turn speeds - the net result is a slightly slower-paced game that feels less like a twitch shooter. This is a good thing.

[Void Angel]

Cyno, you sure talk like you've never played an MMO, but how much you learned (or rather didn't) from any games you've played isn't really the issue. The issue is that you have totally unrealistic expectations about what is owed you for your purchases. You have not been cheated; that's simply not true - the game changed in ways that it needed to change. I've lost track of how many new players I've advised to wait until they have at least speed tweak, and preferably double basics, before deciding whether or not they like a 'mech! Because, particularly for larger chassis, it was a whole different experience. That's way too much for a skill tree in this game. It's arguably way too much for a Battletech game, if you look at things like the torso twist rules. Now it's a noticeably different experience, but not a changed game - that's a Good Thing. It means that players aren't punished so much for trying new 'mechs (except via c-bills if it doesn't work out, but that's a separate thread,) and that the game is just a little slowed down to allow new players to see what's happening and learn from it.

It's unfortunate that you paid money with unrealistic expectations, and that you unfairly feel that PGI is cheating you now - but the fact remains that if you paid grown-up money with childish expectations, that's not their fault, no matter what you feel. No amount of stubborn carping or emotion-based appeals to pity can change that.

[Cynosure]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

The issue is that you have totally unrealistic expectations about what is owed you for your purchases.

My counterpoint to that is your expectations appear obsequious.

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

You have not been cheated; that's simply not true...

I don't think I've been technically cheated. (And I'm sure I haven't been legally cheated.)

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

...the game changed in ways that it needed to change.

Again, the "game changing in ways that it needed to be changed" argument is debatable. Whatever, that is not the crux of my argument here.

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

...but the fact remains that if you paid grown-up money with childish expectations, that's not their fault, no matter what you feel. No amount of stubborn carping or emotion-based appeals to pity can change that.

Please. I'm neither being childish nor emotional. Nor am I appealing for anyone's pity, here. I'm not even wanting my money (and time) back, or anything like that. I'm merely saying that, with this belated and drastic change, PGI's competence in MMO game development and their sensitivity toward customers has been tarnished, in my eyes, and thus they will no longer be getting my business, my money. Oh, I will probably continue playing the game, though maybe not as much as I formerly was. But I'm of the opinion now that my entertainment money is better spent elsewhere. (And there are so many other, better places out there, to spend it!)

Edited by Cynosure, 06 December 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Void Angel]

gyp
verb (used with or without object), gypped, gypping.
1. Informal: Sometimes Offensive. to defraud or rob by some sharp practice; swindle; cheat.

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

the fact remains that if you paid grown-up money with childish expectations, that's not their fault, no matter what you feel. No amount of stubborn carping or emotion-based appeals to pity can change that.

[Cynosure]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

gyp
verb (used with or without object), gypped, gypping.
1. Informal: Sometimes Offensive. to defraud or rob by some sharp practice; swindle; cheat.

For PGI to reduce skill bonuses by a whopping 75%, after we grinded and earned those bonuses with considerable cash and time, is indeed a "sharp practice", in my honest opinion.

Really, if they had reduced those bonuses by 25% or less, I would've been a little perturbed, but I would've begrudgingly continued doing business with them. But by 75%... ?!

Edited by Cynosure, 07 December 2015 - 05:15 AM.

[Ernst Juenger]

Whatever you guys want to believe, Cynosure has a fair point. I'm just a new player, playing like 2 months, but I feel I should voice my opinion as those changes were made for new players.

So, first of all it is a really nice thing, that I can buy whatever mech I like whenever I like as long as I got the cbills. Sadly this also got an unwanted sideeffect for people that are not playing just to collect lots of mechs as they just love the mechwarrior universe. People like these can only progress through mastering their mechs and before the patch it was annoying to buy 3 mechs to master the one you want to play BUT mastering a mech was totally worth it.
Now it is not worth it anymore to go through all the hassle, even if people keep telling them otherwise, because the bonuses from the skills aren't FELT. So as a result this game lost a huge part of the progression and, even if you don't want to believe it, a lot of people play not only for fun, but also for progress, as there are nowadays lots and lots of ways to just have fun. AFAIK most people get hooked to a game because they get steadily better or achieve one small goal after another. Before the patch this was straight forward:
First goal would be to get your first real mech, get away from the useless trialmechs, mechs that indeed should be worse than bought and self equipped mechs. Second goal would be to master your first mech, which means grinding cbills, but while doing so you will at least get all your basic skills on your first mech (maybe even on the second) and you will feel how it handles far better already --> progress. Third goal might be to even get modules or get mechs for a nice dropdeck, which again means grinding cbills, while you still progress through the XP you get. Now you can buy like 4 mechs for your dropdeck in 2 weeks if you play enough and you are done, everything else is always far out of reach cbill wise and while you grind there is no real progress just through getting skills.

New players might have it easier now, but they just might not stay for long as there is nothing easy to achieve. Saving lots and lots of cbills for modules or the next mech without any progress while doing so just isn't fun. That is just my opinion as someone that was having a blast playing the game but now has lost almost all motivation.

Apart from that I also feel that my efforts got devalued in one single patch which obviously sucks (again: if you think otherwise, good for you, dodged a bullet there mate!), because as i stated I feel mastering isn't worth it anymore, and I can't comprehend how people that got lots and lots of mastered mechs simple do not care (wouldn't you be pissed if you spent time and maybe even money on something in real life and suddenly after you achieved your goal it gets devalued heavily?). I mean I only got like 4 mastered mechs, but I am salty nevertheless , that I bought different models of the same mech, although I only want to play one of them, for no reason after the patch.

[Void Angel]

Take it from an experienced player - it is still worth it.

[ThisOneDiesALot]

Void Angel, on 06 December 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

Take it from an experienced player - it is still worth it.

Take it from an other experienced player - is ISN'T worth it anymore.

...

What i wanna say: There are guys who will like it and others who don't. I started play this game and commited myself to get better because it had a nice handling dynamics. With possibilities to torso twist like hell (if you have the skills for that), harrasing, get in and out of fights (if you have the skills for that), bail out in the right moment to not get destroyed (if you have the skills for that). After the patch, the game felt like i'm piloting a turret on legs. All you have to do is to get to a good spot and shoot for the whole day. Don't care about piloting. You won't need those skills anymore. So basically most of the insteresting part of MWO disappeared withing 1.5 hours of patch. Awesome work!

What i don't get comlpetly are the guys who are saying something like "well it was a flaw from beta. it was a mistake and they reversed it". i started playing this game 1.5 years ago. so i never experienced that beta phase. But what i completly don't get is: If you think that was a mistake, you seriously WAITED THREE YEARS? You didn't say something like "hell, those mechs they feel so fast and agile, that's not my playstyle. i go play world of warships" (or whatever game was the right playstyle right then). Instead you seriously want to tell me that it was ok for you to wait all these years to get this flaw revoked???????????? Did you guys piloted your mechs all the time without leveling, because those mechs would be too quirky for your playstyle?

I took my consequences from that patch. Started playing LoL last wed. Level 12 so far... and this game has what MWO is missing now: It challenges my skills. MWO doesn't anymore... AT ALL!

[Void Angel]

You're assuming that it's been a consistent "problem" for all of that time. If you think about it, that's highly unlikely; the current mobility meta is an artifact of the Clan Invasion, not the skill tree. You're also confusing "fast" with "agile," which are two different aspects. You know how much speed my Locust lost from this change? Less than 5 kph - from the second-fastest 'mech in the game. The same patch also increased the twist and turn rates of many 'mechs to compensate for the changes.

You're also conflating PGI, who controls the changes, with the lore purists who have literally been against Speed Tweak for as long as it's been in the game. As well, if an advantage exists to the skill trees, players will take it - that doesn't make it contradictory to want it removed. Your attempt to imply a logical contradiction on these bases fails.

When all is said and done, the speed change is trivial, and the net twist rate is a minor nerf. You lose more on the twist range, but your acceleration, deceleration, and turn rates are higher for a large number of chassis, from the Locust to the Atlas. Yet if you feel that these changes have made the game no longer "challenging to your skills," despite everyone else competing with the same rules, there's no way I can persuade you - that's a purely subjective belief of yours which no evidence about the actual degree of the changes is likely to affect.

Have fun with LoL - it's a good game, too.

[Aiden Skye]

Void Angel, on 07 December 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

You're assuming that it's been a consistent "problem" for all of that time. If you think about it, that's highly unlikely; the current mobility meta is an artifact of the Clan Invasion, not the skill tree. You're also confusing "fast" with "agile," which are two different aspects. You know how much speed my Locust lost from this change? Less than 5 kph - from the second-fastest 'mech in the game. The same patch also increased the twist and turn rates of many 'mechs to compensate for the changes.

You're also conflating PGI, who controls the changes, with the lore purists who have literally been against Speed Tweak for as long as it's been in the game. As well, if an advantage exists to the skill trees, players will take it - that doesn't make it contradictory to want it removed. Your attempt to imply a logical contradiction on these bases fails.

When all is said and done, the speed change is trivial, and the net twist rate is a minor nerf. You lose more on the twist range, but your acceleration, deceleration, and turn rates are higher for a large number of chassis, from the Locust to the Atlas.

most clan mechs have received no bonus acceleration / deceleration quirks. I especially feel the lack of acceleration as it seems I'm yelling at my monitor 10x as much, WTF am I stuck on!!?? Only to look down and see a pebble chop blocking my mech.

[DigitalMerc]

here's the real question PGI does NOT want you to ask:

Just how EXACTLY does nerfing the trees help any newbie pilot? [specifically for the impending Steam launch?]

Sure, seasoned MWO players are at a disadvantage, but will the newcommers really realize this reduction, or are they still likley going to get stompped due to lack of experience in playing MWO in general?

Lets ask another question:

Can you spend EXP on a mech you don't own [ie: Trial mechs]?
Not the last time >I< checked.

Which means that even with the reduction to tree bonuses from EXP, the Steam-newcommers are still going to be piloting un-owned trial mechs, unless they whip out the wallet and start buying mechs. At that point, as an avid member of the steam community, I'm pretty sure they'll be more upset than happy about their 'time spent in mech X" meaning less now, than it did before the game came out on steam. There have been COUNTLESS games that were around long before joining the ranks of steam games... and most of those games didn't take such drastic measures to cater to a 'expected influx' of new players... most of those games let the newcommers get a feel for the game, and adjusted accordingly.

Similarly, if you're comparing "mech A, tweaked to master" vs "mech A, no masteries" ...that new pilot is at a disadvantage, never being able to feel the difference that the original masteries provided... they'll just be used to 'that mech being sluggish as heck!' .... and they're much more likely to bounce from trial to trial until they locate a mech chassis that fits their playstyle. Never mind the fact the only other "mech" style f2p game worth your time on steam is Hawken, which is basically Call of Duty with robots. Comparing that game to this is kind of like comparing a Hellfire missile to an ICBM.

THEN the steam players will probably be, as previously stated, annoyed that the 'earned exp' for all those hard-fought matches isn't nearly what it used to be when they see what's occurred prior to the steamlauch.

But by all means, please keep looking at math and totally IGNORE the communal players who play together, share target data, and provide support to their teammates, in match. Because everyone knows you just need to pull the trigger to win this game. /facepalm

Edited by DigitalMerc, 07 December 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[Void Angel]

This is why no one takes conspiracy theorists seriously. "The Question They Don't Want You To Ask?" Really?

You were told exactly why this helps players by PGI when they made the change - it reduces the difference between an un-mastered 'mech and a fully skilled chassis. It doesn't matter if their un-mastered 'mech is a trial! Time spent in trials argues for the change! Because while they're spending however much time trying out trials - which is what the trials are for - they're going to be getting a much more accurate feel for how those trials compare to 'mechs currently on the field. Sure, they're still not customized for that new player's skillset and preferences, but it's still better than the huge difference that doubled basics, or even Speed Tweak, made previously. There's no "disadvantage" for new players in not having to contend with established opponents with moreof an advantage rather than less - that's not just wrong, it's exactly backwards. Nor are new players going to magically miss extra bonuses they never had - no reasonable person looks at the time spent learning a game and says, "You know, I just wish my opponents had a bigger advantage over me as a newbie, so they could stomp me harder."

Inapplicable and anecdotal examples about previously existing games that went to Steam - all of which you simply cannot have played - are inapplicable and anecdotal. The real issue is whether the change to MWO makes sense for MWO; and it does. One of the biggest issues with this game has been the new player experience - since ever. Remember stock trials? The New Player Help forums are full of new players who aren't clear on what exactly is happening in matches, or how various game systems work - and who feel helpless as they are blasted apart without any obvious counterplay on their part by other players who've had some time to learn the game. Combined with the Mechwarrior Academy, the Skill Tree changes address many of the problems with the new-player experience. The answer to your super-troublesome question is glaringly obvious to any logical mind.

"/facepalm," indeed.

[DigitalMerc]

Obviously you missed the entire gest of my post, which was that these new nerfs to the play style do a DISSERVICE to newcomming mech pilots.

Newcomers to the game, especially from the steam community, are going to have little, if any experience with the mechwarrior franchise, else they'd probably have already been a member of our community. Amputating the enjoyment factor by limiting [mainly] reaction speed is actually going to be counter-productive to the steam community at large, who are by and large, mainly FPS fanatics. Furthermore, your assumption of my steam account's 'presumably limited' library of games is both insulting, and ironic. More-so when the topic I've explicitly implied was "f2p mech-style games".

Your "poo pooing" of my valid argument by way of calling me a conspiracy theorist does nothing for or against the OP's topic, and is obviously a direct attack on me as an individual, based on my desire to see more TEAMPLAY elements incorporated into the game and less cutting of noses despite the face, as it were.

But i suppose next time i'll have to use crayon to express my opinion regarding the fact that this game doesn't need anymore "Dumb-down" nerfing, and directly state that it needs more community-driven content...

Any player worth their salt that actually cares about this game helps newcommers at every opportunity, they don't simply refer them to inferior AI matches, a lackluster [but much improved] tutorial system and basically imply "best of luck, against REAL pilots, new pilot!"

Instead of insutling and taking away from the current playerbase [and folks who help PGI their rent] how about we add more to the community? "Wing commanders" that get a banner or other visual [but NOT exp/cbill bonus] for assisting their newcomming brethren? Maybe some sort of "Sergeant" designation after having helped their fellow pilot come into their own by way of sticking to them, communicating with them [which can be shown by how closely the newcommer is by way of proximity, etc] I could go on for DAYS! There's ample room for improvement on the community front to help new players, and it so miserably and horrifically absent, aside from those few who take it upon themselves to do so with no reward or recognition, other than seeing a fellow pilot blossom into a capable fighter.

But should i really expect anything but "zomfg please nerf moar!" rhetoric from an IS pilot?

Blake, grant me the strength to rise above the limited perception of fellow mechwarrior pilots!

[And one more anecdote for ya; THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!"]

Edited by DigitalMerc, 07 December 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[ThisOneDiesALot]

i don't care very much about the speed nerf. it really doesn't matter if you pilot 5 kph faster or slower. only exception: if you are in a 145 kph raven and being chased by a 150 kph spl firestarter. if you don't get back to your team in time you're f*cked. but otherwise, the speed nerf doesn't do very much. the agility on the other side went away from ALL mechs. And i actually didn't pilot assaults. But i'm pretty sure that those guys are reading a novel while trying to turn around and twist their torso ... no, wait. that can't be true. i think they are actually *writing* a novel. also the acceleration/deceleration nerf... doesn't make it better.

you said something about locust. well, i wasn't a real locust pilot but bought it a while ago and tried it. i liked it. i tried it after the patch and abandoned it. the agility is gone.

however the really *worst* thing about the nerf is how they explained it. so the noobs don't have such a disadvantage against players who play that longer. i mean THATS YOUR ANSWER? instead of supporting the new guys getting better, they say that they instead want to nerf the guys who already playing it. you know, to me it sounds like this (the following is NOT a paraphrase, it's my perception!):

"yeah guy, we know you have played it for several years and put a lot of effort to get on the skills roof. now there are new guys coming in soon. you won't see them as they won't play against you because of tier. but you know what: we don't give a f*ck about your skills. we care more about the new guys -- what you wanna say? you are an experienced player who is happy to help new guys? yeah sure, but we will still nerf it. for us, it doesn't make sense to help other guys getting on your level. instead we want you to push you down on *their* level."

once again, this is NOT what pgi said. this is how i percieved it through the changes. also i don't want to generalize what i write here. this is toally my very own opinnion and i see a lot of guys still playing this game.

LoL update: lvl13 and thriving

Edited by ThisOneDiesALot, 08 December 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[Robot Kenshiro]

I just want them to redo the skills.... so that alot of us can spend all this extra accumulated xp.... for its practically useless after the grind. Only thing its used for is gxp conversion. And no... im not converting over 10million xp points worth into gxp and in sire some ppl have a lot more. Sure gxp helps PGIs wallets. But its pretty lame to have such a short xp factor only to have to xonvert it into gxp.