100 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

6 MPL = 36 damage & 24 base heat

That also doesn't account for missing some of that damage or spreading that damage due to the very nature of energy weapons. That's conveniently not discussed though. It's also not discussed that at 18+ DHS you will not be runnign things like
ECM
AMS
Beagle
XL Engines (unless you're running a really large one and using internal HS)
Endo
Ferro
Targeting Computer
or anything else because you don't have the slots

Showing a screenshot of a heat buildup on a map shows absolutely no context as to the other weapons.


MPL = 6 damage 4 heat 3 second cooldown
AC5 = 5 damage 1 heat 1.8 second cooldown

Please show me how that's "unbalanced"
Before you start, I will remind you I've argued energy weapons for 3 years now. I already know the arguments most of you are going to make.
Ammo dependency
Slots
Weight
Welp, that offsets the 1.8 cooldown (that's nearly 2 rounds for every 1 shot from an MPL PLUS a heck of a lot more range)

6 seconds to fire an MPL twice
5.4 seconds to fire an AC5 three times

MPL may or may not do all of it's damage to a single area
AC5 hits a single area guaranteeing to deal 5 damage to a single pinpoint location every time

so lets look at a reasonable 3-4 AC5 build since the examples were mostly heavies and assaults
4 AC5 alpha = 20 damage
6 MPL = 36 damage

now lets extend that slightly.

lets say over 10 seconds
you'll get 3 volleys from the MPLs = 108 damage
you'll get 5 volleys from AC5s = 100 damage

You can also do that damage from 700 meters out as opposed to 220 meters....

3 volleys MPL = 72 base heat over 10 seconds
5 volleys AC5 = 20 base heat over 10 seconds

(starting to see the trade-offs yet?)

That barely touches the surface of the nuances and trade-offs involved in just those two weapon system of similar damage rates. I fail to see any major imbalances there.

Oh, did we also forget that AC5 has no ghost heat penalty?

[Macster16]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 01 December 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

Well many ppl on here whined endlessly about the proposed lock-on laser change so you're getting the meta you apparently wanted. Enjoy.

Community: "There's something that smells like cat poo in the basement. Can you get rid of it please?"
PGI: "Yeah sure, we'll haul bags full of cow poo into the basement so the smell of the cow poo will cover the smell of cat poo."
Community: "Wut? No thanks!"
PGI: "Fine then, go live with your cat poo smell."
Community:

[William Mountbank]

Alistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

I'm seeing Stalkers actually combine missiles and lasers, like they did in BT lore, for the first time since 2013.

Just out of curiosity, did no one really run Stalkers with combined missiles and lasers since 2013? Because missilaser Stalkers have been my staple assault pretty much since 2013. If they just got better I am going to be wrecking people's day something rotten.

[Mister Blastman]

Wubshee says no...



But the timid BJ-3 says yes...



But I don't know if I'd trust that BJ. He's a sly fox and was using PPCs.

Both screenshots taken from tonight. You decide.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 02 December 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[LordNothing]

want to fix clan laser vomit? then unlock the bloody sinks! i have 3 clan mechs i want to turn into ballistics boats, but cant because sinks i dont need eat up all the ammo space.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 December 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[Sandpit]

William Mountbank, on 02 December 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity, did no one really run Stalkers with combined missiles and lasers since 2013? Because missilaser Stalkers have been my staple assault pretty much since 2013. If they just got better I am going to be wrecking people's day something rotten.

I've run 5LL Stalkers since 2012

[William Mountbank]

Sandpit, on 02 December 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

I've run 5LL Stalkers since 2012

I jumped on the N bandwagon at the peak of it's quirk madness, and then I straight away switched to an ASRM/LL combo instead. I guess I can't even meta properly.

But the F with LRM10/5 and ERLL is a CT seeking monster, and the S is fun and brutal however you arrange the SRMs and LPLs. The only sad one is the H, true LRM40 is such a damp squib.

[Alistair Winter]

William Mountbank, on 02 December 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity, did no one really run Stalkers with combined missiles and lasers since 2013? Because missilaser Stalkers have been my staple assault pretty much since 2013. If they just got better I am going to be wrecking people's day something rotten.

Well, sometimes you'd see LRM Stalkers with some extra lasers. Like 4 or 5 medium lasers, to not be completely defenseless at less than 180 meter range. But a combination of large and medium lasers with SRMs and / or LRMs is something I almost never saw in matches these past few years. Miseries with lasers and ballistics? Yes. Stalkers with a combination of lasers? Yes. Pure LRM boat Stalkers? Yes. We even had periods of PPC boating Stalkers for a while.

Not that I blame Stalker pilots, really. With SRM hitreg being pretty bad, LRMs being fairly slow (not to mention that Stalkers lack tubes) and lasers being relatively OP, PGI made it an easy choice.

[Paigan]

The domination of lasers is first and foremost based on the flawed BT rules.

Lasers are tiny, light, cannot explode, need no ammo, have good damage and good range.
They have almost ALL advantages on their side compared to BT ammo weapons (safe for LRM's indirect fire).
Back in the TT days, we played mostly lasers + LRMs and we DOMINATED everything that had an useless AC in it. And any other stock loadout, for that matter, because almost all of them suck.

With MWO, lasers got the additional advantage of having perfect accuracy, while ammo weapons got additional disadvantages like flying time etc.

So unless the BT weapon stats are drastically changed (and I mean DRASTICALLY, more like it was a different game only inspired by BT), which they will never do due to BT purist zealots, lasers WILL go on to be the dominating weapon in MWO.


And PLEASE look up what the word meta really means.
It does NOT mean what you funny MWO community people think it does.

Edited by Paigan, 02 December 2015 - 01:11 AM.

[KinLuu]

If anything, Laservomit only got stronger. With Gaussvomit - its main competitor - getting a heavy nerf, Laservomit now stands solely at the top of mount tryhard. With Dakka close behind it.

[Sarlic]

I hate BlackJacks even more now.
That one, sir is rediculous on all surfaces.

[Jun Watarase]

[l33tworks]

Alistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

This argument is flawed on so many levels.

Here's an otter for your trouble.

What Mythbusters episode is that from?

[Sarlic]

By the way: everyone will just swap gauss for LPLs.

It's predictable after the massive cooldown increase of the gauss rifle.

[Alistair Winter]

Paigan, on 02 December 2015 - 01:06 AM, said:

And PLEASE look up what the word meta really means.
It does NOT mean what you funny MWO community people think it does.

Words are defined by how people use them, it's not just the other way around. It's a dynamic process. The term "metagaming" is used in probably a dozen different ways, depending on the context. There is no fixed definition that invalidates the term. If a large group of people are using the term in a particular way, then the definition is whatever they decide. To simply decide that the prefix 'meta' must always be used in the same way that it is used scientifically (e.g. metastudy, metadata, etc), regardless of the actual context, is very narrow-minded.

When PGI originally used the phrase 'metagame', they were talking about economics, logistics, rewards, and all the other elements outside the actual MWO matches. In video games, the term 'metagame' is used in a number of different ways. In roleplaying games, the term has a different meaning. In combat sports, it has yet another meaning (which is incidentally identical to how it is used in this thread. Funny how that works. I guess misguided MWO players have corrupted MMA commentators, right?)

Broaden your horizon.

[l33tworks]

El Bandito, on 01 December 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Gauss vomit has been nerfed a bit, but dual Gauss Whale is just as scary as before. I am gonna have some fun with 6xCUAC2 Whale though.

They jam so much though. You have a better chance of dealing more damage by double tapping an AC 10 than double tapping 6uac2s.

After just a few clicks literally 4+ will jam 90% of the time, and all 6 is easy to jam as well.

[Paigan]

Alistair Winter, on 02 December 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

Words are defined by how people use them, it's not just the other way around. It's a dynamic process. The term "metagaming" is used in probably a dozen different ways, depending on the context. There is no fixed definition that invalidates the term. If a large group of people are using the term in a particular way, then the definition is whatever they decide. To simply decide that the prefix 'meta' must always be used in the same way that it is used scientifically (e.g. metastudy, metadata, etc), regardless of the actual context, is very narrow-minded.

When PGI originally used the phrase 'metagame', they were talking about economics, logistics, rewards, and all the other elements outside the actual MWO matches. In video games, the term 'metagame' is used in a number of different ways. In roleplaying games, the term has a different meaning. In combat sports, it has yet another meaning (which is incidentally identical to how it is used in this thread. Funny how that works. I guess misguided MWO players have corrupted MMA commentators, right?)

Broaden your horizon.

Thanks for the explanation. I am very well aware of the dynamic evolution of words.
However that does not apply here. It's no subtle change of meaning, it's a FUNDAMENTAL misinterpretation.
That is not an evolution, it is just an error in communication. No matter how many people use that error.

Example:
when "banca rotta" evolves into "bankrupt" over the centuries ("the trading table is broken"), that is perfectly fine.
But if someone comes along and says all of a sudden "hey guys, the word 'table' now means space rockets, okay?" that is NOT evolution. It is just dead on stupidity, nothing more.
if a thousand people run around and shout "Oh look, NASA is launching another table!" that does NOT make it correct. All it does is tearing down proper communication.

Otherwise, everyone could chaotically redefine words we use for communication at will and just say "hey, language evolves, broaden your chair".

"Metagaming" might be used in 10 different ways elsewhere, but always in the sense of the word: above/beyond the actual gaming. NOT in the MWO-misinterpreted way of saying "top notch" INSIDE the game.

So, in all humbleness to your arrogant last sentence, I might wanna suggest to: broaden your capability of understanding and differentiation. Or "Broaden YOUR horizon wide enough". Whatever works for you.


And please don't write me another PM saying how arrogant I am. YOU started with the "broaden your horizon" statement. I only answered accordingly.

Edited by Paigan, 02 December 2015 - 01:51 AM.

[KinLuu]

People are stronger than words.

[Troutmonkey]

Quote

And PLEASE look up what the word meta really means.
It does NOT mean what you funny MWO community people think it does.

What Allistair said, but even then I'd argue that it's still used correctly.

The "meta" what happens outside the game. By knowing the most likely builds before going into a game, you can "metagame" to counter the current "meta".

It's meta because you know what's likely going on inside the game, from outside the game.

Paigan, on 02 December 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Thanks for the explanation. I am very well aware of the dynamic evolution of words.
However that does not apply here. It's no subtle change of meaning, it's a FUNDAMENTAL misinterpretation.
That is not an evolution, it is just an error in communication. No matter how many people use that error.

When used in this context, the vast majority of players here understand what that word means. Therefore, it is understood and thus valid language.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 02 December 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[SplashDown]

Alistair Winter, on 01 December 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

First of all, I have to say, I'm seeing a lot of positive stuff going on after this patch. Specifically, I'm seeing a lot of people trying out new builds. I'm seeing Stalkers actually combine missiles and lasers, like they did in BT lore, for the first time since 2013. I'm seeing people use AC2s, AC5s and AC10s. I'm seeing Griffins and Centurions and Kintaros armed with SRMs again.

But I just had a few matches with my carry-harder laservomit mechs (Nova, Warhawk, Black Knight), and... well, I still got higher scores than with any other mech that I've tried out (except for my 4xLRM15+A Awesome, which is still going strong).

I'm kind of wondering if, when the dust settles and everyone's had a bit of fun with their 2xAC2 Cicadas, 3xAC5 Marauders and SRM Catapults... is good old fashioned laservomit still going to dominate until PGI finds a replacement for ghost range? "Now with 90% less gauss rifles"?

in other words your NOT seeing alot of 3rd rate carebear cry baby IS players today? give it time