592 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

IS Drop Deck is back to 250.

10t will no doubt make aaaallll the difference fighting 12-mans from the top units who went Clan for the event.

[El Bandito]

Might make a difference vs. non-12 mans though. Cause even the top teams are the minority in this event.

[Sagamore]

Thanks for the event. I finished it in 11 matches tonight using mostly Black Knights in my drop deck as a matter of fact. Low mounted hardpoints made it tough but it was fun playing a chassis I don't normally play. Shout-out to OLD for the great drops this evening.

[G SE7EN7]

Nice to let us know about the Tonnage increase Russ. *** twitter. TELL US HERE FFS

[ExAstra]

Well, it would seem either Clans are still OP, OR Clans have an advantage due to less people playing Clan side (always in a match), OR the highest tiered teams are all on Clan's side (or maybe a combination of any of the 3) - because right now Clans are dominating the Inner Sphere on Tukayyid.

Face it, PGI. The Inner Sphere can never defend Tukayyid. Not until you unleash ComStar (and give the clanners Nova Cat and Diamond Shark <3).

In all seriousness tho, as a clan player I feel like a lot of the nerfs that were put onto clans this patch worked really well. I like the 80% speed on ST loss on clans, and the maximum heat nerf has worked to reduce a lot of "meta" builds.. but it doesn't look like it has been enough? I guess only PGI has the metrics, tho. Glad to be on the winning side of Tukayyid, at least.

[Appogee]

There are just too many PUGtatoes on the IS side. Because Clan Mechs cost so much, it's logical that there will always be more noobs on the IS side.

The top units went Clan because they get more drops more quickly. Can't blame them for that.

It's not like any of the above wasn't entirely predictable before the event.

I don't think PGI can be bothered trying to address it. Their sight is fixed on the fresh paddock of cash cows they believe Steam will give them access to.

[Cvelle]

Appogee, on 05 December 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

There are just too many PUGtatoes on the IS side. Because Clan Mechs cost so much, it's logical that there will always be more noobs on the IS side.

This.

All new players start with IS mechs, and play for IS faction initially. That is specially seen in events like this, when most join CW. You could limit tonnage for clans to 160, and any decent players would still stomp over pugs.

I'm not saying it is such a problem, normally CW is played by organized plays anyway.
PGI should consider a way to spread players throughout factions equally, this will be really important once CW is out of beta.

[Asmosis]

I think at this point clan tech vs IS tech is largely irrelevant. it's all about which guilds went where.

[Duvanor]

What are you expecting them to do? Relocate units by force to the IS? Give the IS another 20 or 30 tons? Or a default drop deck of 4 King Crabs while we are at it? Nerf Clans some more?

Seriously, what does your solution look like?

Edited by Duvanor, 05 December 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Kriri]

Duvanor, on 05 December 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

What are you expecting them to do? Relocate units by force to the IS? Give the IS another 20 or 30 tons? Or a default drop deck of 4 King Crabs while we are at it? Nerf Clans some more?

Seriously, what does your solution look like?

I think thats the main problem.
In my opinion there is real no solution (or i cant imagine one that is working, if it isnt community driven).
Tukyyad seems like a total CW fail to me where, some PUGs just try to get some points for the event give- aways (including me), while getting slaughtered by the top Teams (and nobody can blame them for being a good team because they invest some effort into it).

Edited by Kriri, 05 December 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[Bluttrunken]

Asmosis, on 05 December 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

I think at this point clan tech vs IS tech is largely irrelevant. it's all about which guilds went where.

This. Matches make a much closer impression to me than last time but the amount of big units on the clan side leaves a big impression on the balance.

Can't help players who don't want a challenge but who try to stack as many odds against the enemy as possible. Their talk about "defend honour" should leave a bad taste in their mouth because almost all bigger units metahump clantech for the event.

Clantech is more noobproof than IS. It's not really about balance anymore.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 05 December 2015 - 04:55 AM.

[Duvanor]

Yeah, I mean, I was not playing for some month and am now returning. Just needed to play something else after playing regularly since closed beta.

228 and Merc Star are with Clan Wolf, die Falcons got Praetorian Legion, but then I see Comstar Irregulars, Black Widows and Antares Scorpions dropping for Kurita, Phoenix Legion for FRR, Lords for Steiner and Seraphim for Marik. Correct me if I am wrong (as I said, I was away for some time, so maybe some of these units are not what I remember), but it looks to me like the IS got some pretty good merc units as well.

Edited by Duvanor, 05 December 2015 - 04:58 AM.

[crustydog]

The last patch nerfed the Clans hard vrs IS. The results thus far show that most of the winning results of teams is more to do with organization, tactics, pilot and gunnery skill, than the mechs they drive. I play my Clan gear now, but not because it is my best gear anymore. None of it is my best gear anymore.

After this tournament is over, I suspect we will be returning to the Inner Sphere for an extended duty tour. Frankly, before the patch my IS deck outscored my Clan deck by an average of about 1000 dmg. I can hardly wait to get back to the Inner Sphere to see what my IS CW gear can do now.

I have already spent a day testing the IS Mechs after the patch, and I have seen enough to know it will be a slaughter. Looking forward to it - if there will be anyone left to fight against.

[G SE7EN7]

crustydog, on 05 December 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

The last patch nerfed the Clans hard vrs IS. The results thus far show that most of the winning results of teams is more to do with organization, tactics, pilot and gunnery skill, than the mechs they drive. I play my Clan gear now, but not because it is my best gear anymore. None of it is my best gear anymore.

After this tournament is over, I suspect we will be returning to the Inner Sphere for an extended duty tour. Frankly, before the patch my IS deck outscored my Clan deck by an average of about 1000 dmg. I can hardly wait to get back to the Inner Sphere to see what my IS CW gear can do now.

I have already spent a day testing the IS Mechs after the patch, and I have seen enough to know it will be a slaughter. Looking forward to it - if there will be anyone left to fight against.

Um
DRG-1N NERFED
TDR-5SS NERFED
HBK-4J NERFED
HUGINN NERFED

^ ALL primary CW builds for IS. Not saying that organization didnt have anything to do with it cos we all know most pugs play IS and alot of big units are playing clans. But yeah we got the odds stacked against IS. Plus attack is easier then Counter attack.

Im not at all surprised at the % wins. CW is boned but the freebies are always welcome (event way to easy to complete this time around btw)

[Voras]

My view as one of the CW PUGers:

1) I do play for some time now and I think I am at least a little bit above average skillwise, however, I only own IS mechs, because I have not enough CBills yet to master a full drop deck of clan mechs.

2) Even though I am a PUGer, I do not drop into CW without mastered mechs, so there is no option for me, going clan.

3) I am such a casual player, that I do not have the time and oportunity to find a unit with full coms, so I have to rely on the in-game coms. However, in CW they are not sufficient for a PUG team to organize, because no one has the will or ability to take over command, or, if you drop with some 6+ units, they have TS and do not use the ingame coms.

4) Following this, I guess there are a lot more people playing like me in CW PUGs, that do not use trial mechs, and thus are stuck with IS side.

5) Bottom-line: IS queue is filled with non-organized PUGs while Clans have mostly organized drops, so my experiece in CW so far... I allways end up with a half-organized team dropping against a 12 pre made... never ever saw a Clan PUG yet.

6) Summary: Just by looking at the probability distribution: Clan wins more matches because there are much more 12 man premades vs. PUGs, while IS top units get lower numbers of auto-wins and a number of close calls against stronger clan units. Result: Top Clan Units win >90% while IS Top Units win maybe ~75%... combined with the sheer number of PUG drops on IS side, Clan will automatically have the advantage in CW events.

Solution? Hard to say... maybe reduce CW to pure Clan vs, IS battles with only 2 factions (no houses etc. except for optical labels) and devide the playerbase to PUG vs. PUG CW and pre-made vs. pre-made CW (here also LFG 12 man pre-mades can drop).

Just some random thoughts...

However, I do not have the feeling, these numbers have anything to do with recent mech and tech balance, the problem is one of population.

[crustydog]

G SE7EN7, on 05 December 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Um
DRG-1N NERFED
TDR-5SS NERFED
HBK-4J NERFED
HUGINN NERFED

Yup, they also got nerfed - others were majorly buffed to replace those. I don't disagree with the buffs either. There were lots of IS mechs that were irrelevant, many of which just sat unused and stripped in my mechbays - I never played them once they were mastered because they could not keep up. The 5SS may be joining those ranks now... we will see. Anyone who actually plays the game can easily identify the models in need of improvement.

The IS mechs that were specialized, they were the secret to IS strength - and I always thought that was a good way to work the system, having specific mechs that were tactically superior at certain things. HBK-4J was an excellent LRM platform - limited only by the amount of ammo it could carry - however, LRM's themselves have a limited value on certain maps. Good on Boreal, not so much on Vitric. That sort of thing. It forces you to make decisions about how to deploy your mechs for specific scenarios - and that adds to the flavor of the game.

I own almost all of the Hunchbacks - each specialized to do it's own thing. There is a laser boat, an AC 20 brawler, an SRM boat, an LRM boat, another AC Brawler (less useful - why did I buy it again?) and the Gauss Hero - each does it's own specialized thing - a flavor to satisfy every desire. I like that a lot about the Hunchbacks... it also gives you a reason to buy that fourth or fifth mech in a series.

Omni-mechs were always somewhat lacking in this area, one TimberWolf is pretty much the same as any other. You design them three different ways and swap them out as needed. You don't ever really "Need" to buy that fourth TimberWolf.

The Clans also have a wide variety of less than stellar platforms - mechs that nobody plays because they can't keep up.

Now they have more of them. I predict a shortage of Clan players in the near future as a result.


The mistake that was made was in making tech wide nerfs - that was just lazy. What should have been done was to boost the lesser mechs to bring them back into the game. Why make some of your best paying customers angry and some of them happy, when you could make most of them happy without the anger. The anger is very real... and it's bad for business.

[latinisator]

Nice event. 9 matches and I am done. Love the Caput Mortuum color, love the 1000 MC for free.

Duvanor, on 05 December 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

Seriously, what does your solution look like?

I still think it would be best if they finally managed to make "realistic" matches viable - 2 stars vs. 3 lances.
Or, what I would like to see in a field test: Clans have 3 waves only with a drop tonnage of 200t. IS has 4 waves, drop deck @ 240t.
Would not address the premade-vs-pug-dilemma but pug matches would be more balanced imho. Seriously, have it tested on PTS.

[Appogee]

As the problem is PUGtatoes vs Large Units who just want to farm PUGtatoes ... why not introduce some...

MATCHMAKING

???

[Calebos]

Voras, on 05 December 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

My view as one of the CW PUGers:

1) I do play for some time now and I think I am at least a little bit above average skillwise, however, I only own IS mechs, because I have not enough CBills yet to master a full drop deck of clan mechs.

2) Even though I am a PUGer, I do not drop into CW without mastered mechs, so there is no option for me, going clan.

3) I am such a casual player, that I do not have the time and oportunity to find a unit with full coms, so I have to rely on the in-game coms. However, in CW they are not sufficient for a PUG team to organize, because no one has the will or ability to take over command, or, if you drop with some 6+ units, they have TS and do not use the ingame coms.

4) Following this, I guess there are a lot more people playing like me in CW PUGs, that do not use trial mechs, and thus are stuck with IS side.

5) Bottom-line: IS queue is filled with non-organized PUGs while Clans have mostly organized drops, so my experiece in CW so far... I allways end up with a half-organized team dropping against a 12 pre made... never ever saw a Clan PUG yet.

6) Summary: Just by looking at the probability distribution: Clan wins more matches because there are much more 12 man premades vs. PUGs, while IS top units get lower numbers of auto-wins and a number of close calls against stronger clan units. Result: Top Clan Units win >90% while IS Top Units win maybe ~75%... combined with the sheer number of PUG drops on IS side, Clan will automatically have the advantage in CW events.

Solution? Hard to say... maybe reduce CW to pure Clan vs, IS battles with only 2 factions (no houses etc. except for optical labels) and devide the playerbase to PUG vs. PUG CW and pre-made vs. pre-made CW (here also LFG 12 man pre-mades can drop).

Just some random thoughts...

However, I do not have the feeling, these numbers have anything to do with recent mech and tech balance, the problem is one of population.

1. If you want to compete with clan tech(it is very difficult thanks to clan range and firepower. The heat os overestimated. It is not not so "bad".) you have to build your is mech well so it is many times more expensive than clan mech.

[Monitor 1001]

I know it would blow all the lore people out of the water, but what about the idea of letting IS units incorporate Clan tech into their mechs if they pay enough CBIlls for the R&D to do so?

For instance, have the 'module' or 'upgrade' available to have and IS engine behave like a Clan Engine? Better yet let the IS teams incorporate Clan Mechs into their units..... especially if they are Mercenaries.

In real wars, captured hardware is almost ALWAYS copied, and tried out by the opposing side - sometimes in a matter of months into a conflict. How many years are we now into the Clan invasion? It would make sense to me that top IS techs would have assimilated at least SOME clan tech by now.