Yes, yes this thread has been dead for awhile but I'm here to tell Melcyna to stuff it. Apparently you have an axe to grind with World of Tanks, am I right? You attempt to create scenarios where what you describe turn into "pay to win" situations.
An Easy 8 using gold ammo in the M1A2 76mm gets 177mm of pen. I have used 100mm & 122mm guns on the Russian tanks that have 175mm avg pen, and more often than not they bounce off the front of the Tiger II. Does that 2mm of extra pen make that much of a difference?
No, it doesn't.
And if the Tiger II angles himself, you'll bounce all the time. And the only way your E8 could sit there & shoot the KT in the front and kill it from 100% to 0 is if it just sat there and did nothing. Unless the KT is a bot or a really bad player, it's gonna shoot back. And if that KT has the 105mm gun, it will only need to shoot you 2-3 times, whereas you'll need to hit (and pen) him 12-14 times.
And trying to state that HEAT rounds are better in derp guns? HEAT can still bounce, just like an AP round, whereas HE only needs a flat spot to do damage. Do people use HEAT rounds in the 152mm gun on the KV-2? No because they don't have reliable pen, while HE shells will do damage. "But the 152mm HEAT has 206mm of pen". So? I have seen guns with more pen power firing AP rounds bounce off of tanks that should have eaten it. (Blame the RNG for that)
That concludes my incredibly annoyed and PO'd rant/response.
8
How I expect Pay to Win players to react to MWO when it's released
Started by Capnflintlock, Jul 10 2012 08:39 PM
106 replies to this topic
#102
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- Knight Errant
- 674 posts
Member
- LocationYuri Paradise
Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:35 PM
/facepalm
Easy 8 without HVAP has 128mm penetration with standard AP
effective against medium tank up to one tier higher from most angle and distance, unreliable against frontal armor of heavies of it's tier and worthless against frontal of anything higher than that but has penetration capability on flank for up to T8.
WITH HVAP (ie: gold round for 76mm)
it has 177mm penetration, capable of penetrating:
Medium tank 2 tier above it frontally, including the dreaded Type59, frontal penetration against heavy tank up to T7, and T8 with the thinner frontal area such as lower glacis, and guaranteed penetration on flank of tanks up to T9, and capable of penetration on flank of super heavies on weaker armor panels.
it LITERALLY TURNS US sherman 76mm into a gun with penetration equivalent to US 90mm
you have to be an ***** to not realize how much difference it makes.
with HVAP the sherman 76mm effectively have better penetration than US M6's 90mm and almost as good as Pershing's 90mm with standard ammo.
US 105mm howitzer?? with HEAT it literally two or one shot T5 tanks frontally, including the heavies.
HE can do damage to them still without penetration? Sure... a FRACTION of it's damage that is... so small that you literally are chipping HP like you are using a gun several tier lower in terms of damage.
with HEAT the shell can bounce like an AP on a non penetration but with penetration value so monstrous for it's tier you have to be a REAL bad shot to actually fail using it, and when it DOES HIT and penetrate (which it will if you are any decent and know what you are fighting) it does monstrous damage compared to anything with equivalent penetration of your tier.
US 120mm M58 HEAT? 381mm penetration versus 269mm of normal AP, turns the gun from: reliable as long as you aim carefully on weaker panel, into one capable of penetrating EVERYTHING in the game from virtually any distance at most angle short of the worst possible angle of incidence.
No offense, but it seems you don't actually know what the normal ammo vs gold ammo is like in WoT... perhaps you've never used the gold rounds to know their capability or perhaps you've been using nothing but gold ammo and did not realize what the normal ammo limitation are that but it doesn't take more than a few rounds with both of them (which you can test yourself in test server just to see if you want to avoid paying for gold rounds) to realize how disgusting they are.
Even more disgusting is the fact that you have to buy them.
Easy 8 without HVAP has 128mm penetration with standard AP
effective against medium tank up to one tier higher from most angle and distance, unreliable against frontal armor of heavies of it's tier and worthless against frontal of anything higher than that but has penetration capability on flank for up to T8.
WITH HVAP (ie: gold round for 76mm)
it has 177mm penetration, capable of penetrating:
Medium tank 2 tier above it frontally, including the dreaded Type59, frontal penetration against heavy tank up to T7, and T8 with the thinner frontal area such as lower glacis, and guaranteed penetration on flank of tanks up to T9, and capable of penetration on flank of super heavies on weaker armor panels.
it LITERALLY TURNS US sherman 76mm into a gun with penetration equivalent to US 90mm
you have to be an ***** to not realize how much difference it makes.
with HVAP the sherman 76mm effectively have better penetration than US M6's 90mm and almost as good as Pershing's 90mm with standard ammo.
US 105mm howitzer?? with HEAT it literally two or one shot T5 tanks frontally, including the heavies.
HE can do damage to them still without penetration? Sure... a FRACTION of it's damage that is... so small that you literally are chipping HP like you are using a gun several tier lower in terms of damage.
with HEAT the shell can bounce like an AP on a non penetration but with penetration value so monstrous for it's tier you have to be a REAL bad shot to actually fail using it, and when it DOES HIT and penetrate (which it will if you are any decent and know what you are fighting) it does monstrous damage compared to anything with equivalent penetration of your tier.
US 120mm M58 HEAT? 381mm penetration versus 269mm of normal AP, turns the gun from: reliable as long as you aim carefully on weaker panel, into one capable of penetrating EVERYTHING in the game from virtually any distance at most angle short of the worst possible angle of incidence.
No offense, but it seems you don't actually know what the normal ammo vs gold ammo is like in WoT... perhaps you've never used the gold rounds to know their capability or perhaps you've been using nothing but gold ammo and did not realize what the normal ammo limitation are that but it doesn't take more than a few rounds with both of them (which you can test yourself in test server just to see if you want to avoid paying for gold rounds) to realize how disgusting they are.
Even more disgusting is the fact that you have to buy them.
Edited by Melcyna, 02 September 2012 - 08:33 PM.
#103
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- Survivor
- 38 posts
Member
- LocationAdelaide, Australia
Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:19 PM
Founder's mech's give a slight advantage in gaining cash when using your founders mechs. I wish I could afford founders, but first i wish I had enough money to buy a PC that can run the game, however, all those who bought founders packages before playing it allowed the devs to do more with it (making it less of a risk for them), and deserve a bit of an in game reward. However, this is just a small cash bonus, that doesn't replace being able to hit your targets and play in a team, and it's the same with premium accounts.
#104
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- Bad Company
- 754 posts
Member
- Facebook: Link
- LocationRussian Death Legion, Golden Lion lance lieutenant
Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:34 PM
Khorloch, on 13 July 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:
so gaining cbills faster is paying to win?
I like how in unnamed CBT there's no money boost for premium accts.
Also working OP video:
Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 02 September 2012 - 08:35 PM.
#105
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- Knight Errant
- 674 posts
Member
- LocationYuri Paradise
Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:11 AM
Even if there is a maintenance cost, that doesn't make it pay to win...
the angle in which someone can argue that it represents pay to win is if you can't make enough cbills to remain competitive in the fight (ie: influencing the player's choice on loadout significantly), but as long as you can actually acquire enough cbills on average to pay for both repair and ammo of the battlemech along with some profit for any reasonable mech design (ie: not one designed to lose) then the argument loses ground.
the second alternative to the argument that more cbills == pay to win would be if you can purchase better and better equipment with cbills.
BUT that is not the case in Battletech until new equipment comes in...
Buying large laser for example doesn't give you a better laser than a medium laser your mech may come with in the first place for example, it only gives you a laser more effective at longer range, at the expense of it's efficiency in close range.
Buying an XL engine doesn't give you a better engine either as another example, you simply trade space and durability for weight... a trade off that depending on how you fight isn't exactly always good.
Effectively everything you buy with cbills is a measure of pro and cons...
All you are doing with your cbills essentially is tuning your mech with the parts that suits your style within the mech limit, and no amount of cbills you have can alter that limit.
the angle in which someone can argue that it represents pay to win is if you can't make enough cbills to remain competitive in the fight (ie: influencing the player's choice on loadout significantly), but as long as you can actually acquire enough cbills on average to pay for both repair and ammo of the battlemech along with some profit for any reasonable mech design (ie: not one designed to lose) then the argument loses ground.
the second alternative to the argument that more cbills == pay to win would be if you can purchase better and better equipment with cbills.
BUT that is not the case in Battletech until new equipment comes in...
Buying large laser for example doesn't give you a better laser than a medium laser your mech may come with in the first place for example, it only gives you a laser more effective at longer range, at the expense of it's efficiency in close range.
Buying an XL engine doesn't give you a better engine either as another example, you simply trade space and durability for weight... a trade off that depending on how you fight isn't exactly always good.
Effectively everything you buy with cbills is a measure of pro and cons...
All you are doing with your cbills essentially is tuning your mech with the parts that suits your style within the mech limit, and no amount of cbills you have can alter that limit.
#106
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- Overlord
- 7,308 posts
Member
- LocationRTP, NC
Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:20 AM
Pay to Win is definitely one such term that many people use without really understanding what it means.
Such people equate any purchase using real money in exchange for in game items to be pay to win - regardless of whether you could also earn those items by playing the game.
This is the fallacy, because what it really means is when you cannot even (realistically) earn those items without paying, OR an equivalent item. The latter is a secondary point to the main point because sometimes there's things that can be for purchase only but not really be more powerful than something you could earn without paying.
Such people equate any purchase using real money in exchange for in game items to be pay to win - regardless of whether you could also earn those items by playing the game.
This is the fallacy, because what it really means is when you cannot even (realistically) earn those items without paying, OR an equivalent item. The latter is a secondary point to the main point because sometimes there's things that can be for purchase only but not really be more powerful than something you could earn without paying.
#107
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- 8 posts
Rookie
- Facebook: Link
- LocationAustralia
Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:38 AM
Nigel Thornberry, on 10 July 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:
I completely understand, those hats are amazing, how can you not just want to stop and stare at them.
Those hats have no boundaries on what they do to us poor sobs.
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