106 replies to this topic

[Brenden]

Astarot, on 20 July 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

I would kinda take off LoL simple to the fact that ALMOST (only thing you really can't buy with IP are bonus packs and boost) everything else you can buy with IP, which means that everything someone willing to get instantly, if a player works at it, can get it as well ^-^;

I've only played World of Tanks a few times, and of all the matches I've played some little, tiny, inconspiculas tank will come up against my grand howitzer on wheels and, with one tiny shot of his golden ammo, KILL ME. I think that's pretty unfair, don't you think?

[Powerax]

Brenden, on 20 July 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't say models.. Unless you mean what I think you mean, then by that extention something like what they did with the founder's mechs, right? Beak on the Catapult?

Well I mean in design personally, I know what a Cata looks like, but there must be variant looks, more distinctive with the houses. Maybe more models that look like the mech in the books by famous mech pilots an such. An before peps say "well if you pick another weapon variant then the model looks different." that is true but just for looks I want, not with the weapons load out AND use of mech bay space.

An if anyone ask, I bought my status just for the mech look more then its function and thanks for the knowledge in using said mech I can get more C-bills :3

[Brenden]

Powerax, on 20 July 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Well I mean in design personally, I know what a Cata looks like, but there must be variant looks, more distinctive with the houses. Maybe more models that look like the mech in the books by famous mech pilots an such. An before peps say "well if you pick another weapon variant then the model looks different." that is true but just for looks I want, not with the weapons load out AND use of mech bay space.

An if anyone ask, I bought my status just for the mech look more then its function and thanks for the knowledge in using said mech I can get more C-bills :3

I wish I could buy a founders pack... Atleast veteran... But no. Sadly, the job market isn't kind to those my age. V_V
But those types of models I can see. You could also get special decals and images posted onto your 'mech.
Want to put a picture of an *** on the place where your 'mech's *** would be if it had an ***? Sure, 2.99 please.
Oh, you want a Black and White snow-flak camo that is available for this month? Okay. 5.99
Oh, you want Paul's Banhammer skin instead of your Ax for your Hatchet man? 400,000,000 dollars please.

[Mattrixx]

Astarot, on 20 July 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

I would like to note, that most people think wot is not pay to win game, when it actually is, see you don't just win in battle but as an account, for example if you don't get prem, you will never get past a tier 8 tank in a month, unless you basically have no life, which I do, and it took me roughly three weeks to get even close in EXP to getting a tier 8 tank, after tier 8, unless you pay for prem, unless you WIN EVERY GAME YOU GET IN IN THAT TANK, you start to lose credits, which after losing so many credits you are forced to ither sell that tank and down grade and continue to die. Or buy prem to support your tank, next all gold tanks have ungodly amount of EXP and Credit gain, so you can freaken die in a gold tank, and earn enough credits to support a small army, and get enough EXP to power your way down a tank line. I'm sorry to say but thats why World of tanks is a pay to win game. unless you pay, good luck getting the final tier tank and holding onto it.

Okay, I'd just like to point out here that yes, you can and will loose money on the higher tier tanks especially if you have a lousy team or you yourself suck big round sweaty objects of the nether region.
As to getting money then you can simply grind more with tier 5 to tier 7 tanks (and yes, I have those still a plenty and I use them actually more regular then my tier-8 gold monster).
And since you have free 5 or 6 tank berths to start with you can easily keep at least one or two mid-tier tanks to keep you fed in credits.
Even on losses I usually make a few thousand credits in WoT on tier 5 and tier 6 tanks. But then again i don't tend to run to the front blindly and get my own backside blown up in the first few seconds of game match start.

And I see a plenty of high tier (9 and 10) tank players that just act with mind boggling stupidity more often then not. And watching them I keep wondering how did they ever pass tier-3 in the game to begin with (after looking at some of their stats not all of them have gold tanks I might add so they've gone through the tank tiers the hard way). Still don't make them any smarter it seems.


And I suspect the same will apply very harshly, maybe even more so, to MWO games. We will and I will guarantee you that we will see these fellows in MWO as well that you so not want to have on your team in WoT or any other team oriented action game.

So buckle up and tighten down that helmet for they are coming weather we want them or not.

[Melcyna]

Brenden, on 20 July 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

I've only played World of Tanks a few times, and of all the matches I've played some little, tiny, inconspiculas tank will come up against my grand howitzer on wheels and, with one tiny shot of his golden ammo, KILL ME. I think that's pretty unfair, don't you think?

Has nothing to do with LoL

why are you confusing WoT with LoL?

LoL thus far have been accepted far and wide for eSports and tournaments, THAT alone should tell you how ridiculous the notion of P2W is for LoL. Do you seriously think ppl will want to make televised tournaments all around in the gaming communities for a game that is P2W?

and why is WoT status between P2W or not still in question?

you can BUY items which gives you direct advantage in the combat when facing the enemy that you cannot acquire without either money or being in a clan that posses territories (assuming the clan shares the gold for such purpose).

the classical excuse being of course that a clan members could spend the gold to purchase the gold rounds from the territory income so according to them it's not P2W since apparently EVERYONE can be in their position of having a gold producing territory which they maintain WITH GOLD since no one fights in clan war while disputing a good territory without gold rounds.

the most retarded logic i've heard from WoT players.

and Wargaming wonders why it could not penetrate the gaming tournament communities well despite their effort at it... i don't know which is dumber, the dev, or some of the players of that game.

Edited by Melcyna, 20 July 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Douglas Reichel]

Alrighty...so everyone keeps pointing out that my T18 means I've only played for 1 to 2 hours. Problem is, I have 5 tier 2 tanks. One TD, One SPG, and 2 mediums and 2 lights, all but one of which is fully researched and accelerating crew experience (not really liking the new French junk). Pardon me for only emphasizing the one I've been focusing on most recently as opposed to wasting time listing everything I've been doing on account of no one being able to see beyond their own nose.

I've played plenty of hours of WoT, especially since I have been battling also to save up for new tanks and such. No, I don't have dozens of hours under my belt, and it'll be months before I ever do, because I play maybe one hour a week. All total, I play games overall about 5 or 6 hours a week. I have used top tier tanks though because I have a cousin who is obsessed with the game and plays just it as much in one day as I do for all games in a week. So I've tried out quite a few of the "big guns" in the interest of trying to plan out which way I want to go in the tree.

Next, anything that accelerates your "character's" development in a game, is not p2w. All it means is you get the same gear and levels or whatnot more quickly. Once the "poor unwashed masses" have played long enough, they'll have exactly what you have...but more skill for taking the longer road.

p2w means to pay real money to get a direct and insurmountable stat advantage over all other opponents who do not spend money for that purpose. As I said before, it's when, all else being equal, stat for stat; the paying player will always beat the free player. It doesn't matter if it's a tiny advantage or a huge one, take skill out of the equation and the result is the same, and that's bad design. Paying money to earn in-game cash or experience faster, or even to use directly to purchase the same items, is a nice perk that speeds things up. But, all else being equal, it doesn't make you better off than anyone else who got to that same point by actually playing hard.

So, I really don't have to have played WoT as much as I actually have to be able to determine that it's absolutely p2w. Basic reasoning skills are more than enough as stated directly above and in my prior post. If all else is equal, cash-bought gear and other stat advantages being better than their free counterparts makes a game p2w because even a tiny boost makes a thing unbeatable.

[Dimael]

Brenden, on 20 July 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

I've only played World of Tanks a few times, and of all the matches I've played some little, tiny, inconspiculas tank will come up against my grand howitzer on wheels and, with one tiny shot of his golden ammo, KILL ME. I think that's pretty unfair, don't you think?

Soo..may I ask you, how the hell you want to know, if the one that blasts you used gold ammo? 95% of all types of gold ammo do not increase the damage you deal, but only the penetration. If your grand howitzer is an SPG then I can tell you, that nearly everything kann penetrate and kill you.

Douglas Reichel, on 21 July 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Alrighty...so everyone keeps pointing out that my T18 means I've only played for 1 to 2 hours. Problem is, I have 5 tier 2 tanks. One TD, One SPG, and 2 mediums and 2 lights, all but one of which is fully researched and accelerating crew experience (not really liking the new French junk). Pardon me for only emphasizing the one I've been focusing on most recently as opposed to wasting time listing everything I've been doing on account of no one being able to see beyond their own nose.

I appologize for not considering this. But still, there is no big deal with Premium or Gold Problems in this area of tier.

Quote

I've played plenty of hours of WoT, especially since I have been battling also to save up for new tanks and such. No, I don't have dozens of hours under my belt, and it'll be months before I ever do, because I play maybe one hour a week. All total, I play games overall about 5 or 6 hours a week. I have used top tier tanks though because I have a cousin who is obsessed with the game and plays just it as much in one day as I do for all games in a week. So I've tried out quite a few of the "big guns" in the interest of trying to plan out which way I want to go in the tree.

I don't know how many time you invested in trying out the big guns. In fact, tier 1-5 matches are playing absolutely different form the higher tier matches. High Tier matches depend even more on teamwork, than the low tier ones. And..btw..in this area of tier, nearly every tank is able to penetrate every tank of his own tier and even of the tier above.. without the need of gold ammo. He just need to know where to aim at. Hell..I can penetrate a E-100 with a T29, which is 3 Tiers below.

Quote

Next, anything that accelerates your "character's" development in a game, is not p2w. All it means is you get the same gear and levels or whatnot more quickly. Once the "poor unwashed masses" have played long enough, they'll have exactly what you have...but more skill for taking the longer road.

This is partly correct. I just think about the time, where the Lowe was introduced. At that time, there was a flood of players, who normaly drove Tier 3-5 tanks and now have to play a Tier 8 heavy tank. They dealed poorly with their responsibility for the team. They had no experience and no idea how to play a heavy tank..especialy in this area of tier.

But, I have also to be contrary to the "long road = more skill" - Argument. Not completely, but there is an average amount of battles you need to learn how to handle your vehicle correctly. In my oppinon this is around 50 matches..or below. This depends also on the amount of time, you've spend on other vehicles of the same type..and even of the time you've spend to fight against these types. After that, you should have a solid base of skill on which you can improve your handling to reach perfectness.

Quote

p2w means to pay real money to get a direct and insurmountable stat advantage over all other opponents who do not spend money for that purpose. As I said before, it's when, all else being equal, stat for stat; the paying player will always beat the free player. It doesn't matter if it's a tiny advantage or a huge one, take skill out of the equation and the result is the same, and that's bad design. Paying money to earn in-game cash or experience faster, or even to use directly to purchase the same items, is a nice perk that speeds things up. But, all else being equal, it doesn't make you better off than anyone else who got to that same point by actually playing hard.

Okay...but this stat difference because of the use of real money is in an area of around 2-3%. A bad player is still a bad player and a good one is still a good one. Shooting is not everything in WoT. If you have no idea how to maneuver, where to position yourself, how to scout properly etc., then premium and gold ammo doesn't help you.

Quote

So, I really don't have to have played WoT as much as I actually have to be able to determine that it's absolutely p2w. Basic reasoning skills are more than enough as stated directly above and in my prior post. If all else is equal, cash-bought gear and other stat advantages being better than their free counterparts makes a game p2w because even a tiny boost makes a thing unbeatable.

As I mentioned before, premium tanks are not better than any tank of the same tier. They are even weaker than elite versions of normal tanks of this tier.

PS: Please don't feel attacked personaly. This is not my intention.

Sicnerely.

[Melcyna]

Dimael, on 21 July 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Okay...but this stat difference because of the use of real money is in an area of around 2-3%. A bad player is still a bad player and a good one is still a good one. Shooting is not everything in WoT. If you have no idea how to maneuver, where to position yourself, how to scout properly etc., then premium and gold ammo doesn't help you.



As I mentioned before, premium tanks are not better than any tank of the same tier. They are even weaker than elite versions of normal tanks of this tier.

PS: Please don't feel attacked personaly. This is not my intention.

Sicnerely.

Please note that P2W was never strictly used as a term to refer to an advantage that guarantees victory...

Such thing in fact generally almost rarely exist (even in the realm of disgusting P2W Chinese MMOs)

An advantage that is sufficiently large in combat or other direct interaction with the other players under a competitive situation is ALREADY considered P2W and this is what often surfaces in P2W games.

P2W essence is the ability to buy an advantage that is significant and affect the degree of severity in which you interact with another player directly, especially in competitive scenario.

In the case of WoT and it's gold shells, the fact that they do the same damage doesn't make them any more acceptable, since in tank engagement non penetrating AP or HEAT shell is as good as non existent.

If the gold shell can penetrate 95% of the time frontally against another tank, while the normal shell have 45% chance of penetrating frontally... from the SAME DISTANCE, then the user of the gold shell have an overwhelming advantage as he can choose to engage from far wider choice of position and still be assured a penetration (ie: damage since no penetration means jack all nothing for non HE shells).

Does it guarantee victory? no, there are still ways to mitigate that advantage to an extent, but it does not change the fact that the user of the gold shell have such an improved performance capability with it that if 2 equal tankers with equal tank fight it out in the field, the ones using the gold shell is much more likely to win.

THIS inequality that can be bought with money in the field where the players interact directly against each other under competitive situation is what P2W covers, and the kind that is abhorred under competitive gaming as it defeats the point of competitive gaming in the first place.

The equivalent in sport would be to play a tennis and being able to buy the ability to have my field shrunk in size, while my opponent enlarged. In another word, an advantage that defies the concept of competition in the first place.

[Bunkerbomber]

The only thing that is winning is the game companies business model. Another glass of tiger's blood pls!

[Melcyna]

If we go by that notion, then LoL is the undisputed champion in the western F2P side since it is both the most popular and the largest in terms of player base and widespread acceptance especially in eSport.

WoT have been trying to penetrate the western market using the same method they use to penetrate russian market (their homeground) and the european... but they are not quite nearly as successful so far though they have managed to carve a decent chunk for themselves, even if they are failing to penetrate the eSport communities much at all.

Thus far however, WoT has no competition in it's field... whereas LoL have been competing head on against other MOBA F2P games (like HoN) and winning by large margin (incidentally both LoL and HoN individually have larger player base and popularity than WoT, LoL player base happens to be so large that it's larger than all the 5 of the next most popular F2P games played in the western world combined, including WoT and HoN) so LoL have a proven track record in the face of competition, while WoT does not.

Once MWO and Hawken come out, along with other F2P titles of similar lines... the real test for WoT will show up, whether it can hold on to it's small slice of pie of the western market or not when there are competitors around. From my point of view at least... they won't... and judging from their change of hearts in their tank addition criteria, they probably knew that as well.

[Grey Weasel]

Astarot, on 20 July 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

I would like to note, that most people think wot is not pay to win game, when it actually is, see you don't just win in battle but as an account, for example if you don't get prem, you will never get past a tier 8 tank in a month, unless you basically have no life, which I do, and it took me roughly three weeks to get even close in EXP to getting a tier 8 tank, after tier 8, unless you pay for prem, unless you WIN EVERY GAME YOU GET IN IN THAT TANK, you start to lose credits, which after losing so many credits you are forced to ither sell that tank and down grade and continue to die. Or buy prem to support your tank, next all gold tanks have ungodly amount of EXP and Credit gain, so you can freaken die in a gold tank, and earn enough credits to support a small army, and get enough EXP to power your way down a tank line. I'm sorry to say but thats why World of tanks is a pay to win game. unless you pay, good luck getting the final tier tank and holding onto it.

Even winning, I was still losing money in T7 and T8 tanks. You have to grind with your T5/6 tanks to earn cash to keep your other tanks, or you have to have a premium account. I do not agree with those who think WoT is not p2w.

[Melcyna]

To be fair though, you shouldn't be losing money in T7 and T8 with most tanks....in WoT assuming a decent tanker.

the key condition there however is that you have to do ENOUGH damage or other actions in the field such as scouting etc, worth your repair cost.

for example a T8 heavy have to do roughly at least 70% of it's HP worth of damage to pay for it's repair cost assuming the tank was completely destroyed, this does not factor it's ammunition cost which is very expensive for 300 dmg class shells and above.

if factoring the ammunition cost as well then essentially the T8 heavies must do THEIR HP worth of damage to pay back their repair and ammunition cost if they are completely destroyed, otherwise the heavy tank must keep damage as low as possible to push the repair cost down and maintain profitability.

Winning, is not enough, you have to be actually doing something in the match worth something....

This part of the system, is fine if you ask me and i don't have a problem with that... players who knows how to play and fight will thus generate stable profit even in T7 and T8, while those less able are going to have to rely on lower tier tanks to make credit.

The part i am NOT fine with is their gold ammo shell system.

[Ricama]

Nigel Thornberry, on 10 July 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

All the angry about pay to win.

Please, feel free to list a game where the cash shop gives you such a "huge" advantage.
inb4 combat arms.

Battlestar Galactica.

[SparkSovereign]

Ricama, on 22 July 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Battlestar Galactica.

What's that, you spent the MONTHS it takes to get anything bigger than a fighter without forking out cash? Oh that's cool, I bought some nukes. Sucks to be you.

Honestly, that game is probably one of the more egregious examples of p2w. Even the stuff that can be bought without paying requires an OBSCENE amount of resources that you can't effectively farm, and basically just have to wait for. A rare example of the grind speed being so ungodly slow that buying past it really is p2w, unlike, say, LoL.

Go ahead and find a credible source telling you LoL is play to win, and I'll be aghast. Probably at your definition of credible. Oh, and Mechwarrior Online is using the exact same business model as them. Should be awesome.

[Agent KI7KO]

People who claim that a small tank can destroy their "grand howitzer" with gold ammo clearly are not in a position to comment about World of Tanks mechanics.

Really. If you spent 5 minutes looking through gun stats you would see that Gold Ammo does the exact same damage that Normal does.

Gold ammo just reduces the chances your shell will bounce off an opponent's armor. It will still bounce off if you don't bother to aim properly.

[Melcyna]

Afoxi, on 22 July 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

People who claim that a small tank can destroy their "grand howitzer" with gold ammo clearly are not in a position to comment about World of Tanks mechanics.

Really. If you spent 5 minutes looking through gun stats you would see that Gold Ammo does the exact same damage that Normal does.

Gold ammo just reduces the chances your shell will bounce off an opponent's armor. It will still bounce off if you don't bother to aim properly.

everyone knows that...

but having access through cash to shells with over significantly improved penetration in a game where PENETRATING is mandatory to do any real damage concerning AP shells (which is the main ammunition of any non howitzer guns in the game) practically equates to giving access to direct advantage in combat through usage of money, of which you cannot access the shells otherwise... except:

The popular counter argument being that Clans can get free gold to do so which is for the most part BS, because assuming the clan is one of the FEW clans that actually had good gold territory, most of the clan gold are spent on free xp conversion to get as many T10 tanks players in the clan depending on what's the flavor of the month (whatever is considered the best tank for CW at that moment) to remain at the top composition when battling to defend the territory and take new ones, aside of the gold ammo cost for the territory war.

-------------------------------------------------------
for non WoT players i'll give an idea of how MUCH of an advantage does the gold shell give you.

for howitzer guns: the jump is GIGANTIC, it normally gives them access to HEAT shells

an M4 with 105mm howitzer have penetration around 55mm with HE shells, this essentially means the shell cannot penetrate tank of it's own tier and higher at all or even tanks right below it's tier frontally except on hits on small weak spots. It still can do damage as it is a sizable HE shell but the damage is cut to a small fraction by the armor mitigation to less than 33% it's original value usually.

through HEAT shell the howitzer penetration jumps to 150mm, suddenly the howitzer can penetrate everything up to tanks two tier above it frontally, at least in the front hull plate. The damage it inflict with the HEAT shell is reduced a tad, but the penetration improvement means any tank it hits with the HEAT shell take full damage of the shell, through the shell the tank suddenly become a real threat fully capable of fighting toe to toe and winning or inflicting horrendous damage to tanks it normally have little to no real chance of damaging frontally.

The trend is less acute with the other shells, but similar... for example 76mm HVAP ammo turns the 76mm on the Easy Eight into a machine gun of death with the penetration of a 90mm AP shell, but retaining the damage, accuracy, and rate of fire of the 76mm AP shells.

it turns a Sherman 76mm gun that normally can only penetrate medium tanks of it's tier frontally... and have trouble on tanks one tier or more higher especially heavy tanks with their heavy frontal armor, into one capable of penetrating tanks 2 tier higher than it frontally INCLUDING heavy tanks.

King Tiger frontal armor? No problemo, frontal lower glacis BAM BAM BAM, and punch it full of 76mm holes and set it on fire (most retarded damage system ever... damaging the transmission equal damage to engine and setting it on fire).

Access to HVAP ammo? APCR? APDS? yep they are all gold shells...

basically ALL the high performance penetration shells of the war? they are all gold shells...

Edited by Melcyna, 23 July 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Shammus]

LMFAO Love family guy!!

[Taiji]

As far as I'm aware, the phrase 'pay-to-win' is used to describe games where you buy an advantage. That the advantage makes you win all the time is clearly not what is meant, since it would be pretty ridiculous.

Another way to term it might be 'free to play with a disadvantage', but terming it 'free to play' and leaving out 'an unfair game' is misleading for people from societies that expect games to be fair... So all of them probably.

And I reckon that's why they get slapped with 'pay to win'.

Edited by Taiji, 28 July 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Melcyna]

Not exactly,

To be more specific, pay 2 win is more acutely in the terms of reference of advantage 'IN COMBAT' or otherwise while under the main gameplay section.

XP Boost in general are not considered as one for example because regardless if a player has one or not, the outcome of his direct combat with another player is irrelevant with the XP boost.

The main exception to that is in cases where the player's XP and thus level or what not is directly related to his raw combat performance parameter... and if achieving nominal level requires obscene amount of time and effort without the boost.

When it comes to WoT, the premium account and what not is fairly standard staple of F2P mechanism in the western... and no one cares too much about it because although faster XP leveling means access to higher tier tanks which do have better stats, the higher tier tanks are also put into a match with higher tier foes by the matchmaker and their maintenance cost reflects their increased tier as well where they often can spend as much in ammunition alone as the total maintenance cost of tanks of the lower tier. In fact in terms of the credit (in game money for use in regular maintenance and item) generation ratio... the lower to mid tier tanks are FAR BETTER than the higher tier tanks EXCEPT when premium tanks (special tanks that can only be purchased with gold) are used.

Where WoT fails however (and why it's considered at least partially Pay 2 Win) is the ability for paying customer to purchase gold shells... these gold shells typically are the high penetration shells and cannot be acquired otherwise without some form of access to gold currency in the game, of which there are only 4 ways really: 1. through Clan, by possessing gold territory (and assuming the gold is distributed if you are not the leader), 2. through contest/tournament reward, 3. by being gifted by someone else,

and the easiest option of all: 4. by buying it yourself with money.

The gold shells generally cover the more exotic shells of WW2 (read: rare and expensive), so anything from HEAT shells, HVAP, APDS, APCR, etc...

Their damage is usually similar to standard AP or APC shells that every player have access to, however their penetration is remarkably improved which is not surprising given that historically these shells were superior in penetration and hence why they are supplied to the front line tanks in rations wherever encounter with hostile heavy armor is expected.

Since non paying customer essentially do not have a realistic chance of acquiring one, while the paying customer can easily access it (with enough cash anyway) the resulting skew in performance from the usage of these shells are rather plain and obvious given that in WoT, non HE shells MUST PENETRATE to do any actual damage

[zudukai]

we will mop the floor with their supposed elitist face because it's a level field and i'm better then them. SUCK IT.