172 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

15 pts FLD, 1 heat, instantaneous hit (lets be frank its really hard to miss with Gauss from 200M to 900M) on all mechs save 40 tonners and below and you only have to worry about the gun itself exploding. I've dealt with the charge up nerf and can continue on for those benefits.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mystere, on 04 December 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

I have a question. What practical advantage does a vacuum tube have over the transistor that replaced it?

A ridiculous comparison. Even with those stats, the Clan version is still technically superior to the IS versions. Only slightly harder to use, which is perfectly fine and fits just fine with the Clan propensity to make things harder on themselves.

[Nightmare1]

Okay, I didn't really have an opinion on the Gauss because I hadn't used it yet post nerf. Having done so, I have to say...

...It's useless. My Gauss + CERPPC Summoner that used to be so much fun to pilot is completely pathetic now. I really don't even know what to put on it. It doesn't have enough energy hardpoints to boat well, and the heat sink nerfs make it harder to use energy weapons anyways. Twin CERPPCs are a bit too hot, and it doesn't have enough tonnage to do anything really useful with ballistics. That just leaves missiles, and I really don't want to run three Summoners with just SRMs or LRMs. That's boring.

Please fix Gauss. I don't understand why PGI feels the need to nerf everything so much. At the very least, give the Summoner Prime some Guass quirks so that we can run that fun build again!

[Nightshade24]

BigBenn, on 04 December 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

1) Accuracy is questionable at anything but close range thanks to the charge up.
2) see #1, at any range
3)cold or not, it fires once every 6.25 second at the quickest. Even the ERPPC can handle that. So heat is a non issue.
4)you're right, but the gauss rifle itself is made of glass. It is destroyed very easily.

For every positive there is a more weighty negative, imo. Just how often is a player able to effectively use the gauss beyond the 800m mark vs inside the 400m mark? Very rarely. Compare to the AC10 or even the AC20 at inside the 400m mark.
Ultimately, I can stomach all the issues with the gauss except the charge up.

1) You loose accuracy with charge up? I see no piece of coding adding spread of aim jitter with Gauss rifle. Only machine guns, SRM's, LRM's, LBX, and when jumpjetting or MASC'ing which the later 2 applies to all weapons.
2) applies to all weapons?
3) try a stalker with 4 mediums, 1 large, 1 gauss, and 1 srm 6. (my build for the misery). now replace the gauss with an ER PPC. Still the same?
4) only when armour is removed. which also applies to the AC 20 due to it's sheer size and damage-catching capability. Make nearly the first or second shot (non laser weapon/ dps) able to knock out an AC 20.

if you are not good at using a gauss rifle, then their are two salutations: one, do not use the gauss if you are not a gauss fan, or two, practice at it until you can aim with it or make a build that can make good use with it.

[Nightshade24]

Dimento Graven, on 04 December 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Except NOW with an extra 1.5 seconds of reload, if/when you're brawling, or worse, attacked by lights, you're at an extreme disadvantage with what are mostly inert bombs strapped to your 'mech. In close in situations that extra 1.5 seconds makes a huge difference, especially when attempting to fight off 6+ laser lights, who don't have to worry about knock down and can just jam themselves in your rear, or leg hump you.

I do not see the problem here, all I can reply with is the blunt question of: "Did you try shooting the light mech with your gauss?", if he's humping your leg that gives an easy cockpit shot at the very least.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 04 December 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

A ridiculous comparison. Even with those stats, the Clan version is still technically superior to the IS versions. Only slightly harder to use, which is perfectly fine and fits just fine with the Clan propensity to make things harder on themselves.

Actually, it's not. It just requires more that superficial thinking. So why not think some more using what you know about the evolution of electronics and what you notice about electronic gadgets today. You'd be surprised of the things you take for granted these days.

Edited by Mystere, 05 December 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 04 December 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

I have a question. What practical advantage does a vacuum tube have over the transistor that replaced it?

It's much more resistant to EMP than a transistor.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 December 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

It's much more resistant to EMP than a transistor.

Getting warmer!

[kapusta11]

What nerf? My Jagermech A is now rocking with 858m range, 4.26 sec cooldown and whopping 2700 mps projectile speed Gauss.

[Dimento Graven]

Nightshade24, on 04 December 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

I do not see the problem here, all I can reply with is the blunt question of: "Did you try shooting the light mech with your gauss?", if he's humping your leg that gives an easy cockpit shot at the very least.

It's responses like these that make me question whether people in favor of this extreme nerf actually use gauss.

As anyone with significant experience using gauss knows, when a light is that close they are typically inside your firing arc and it's extremely difficult, near impossible, to reliable bring your gauss to bare on them.

Secondly, as everyone who has significant experience using gauss knows, it's very rare you can single shot a light.

Lastly, as everyone who actually has been paying attention to cockpit sizes, PGI has been steadily shrinking them over the years. A cockpit shot, EVEN UP CLOSE, on a target jittering around due to craptastic collision mechanics is an extremely difficult thing. I know this, as were at is easy as you are trying to imply, I'd have completed the "Guillotine" about a year ago at the latest...

Yeonne Greene, on 05 December 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

It's much more resistant to EMP than a transistor.

Actually I know of quite a few key systems the military keeps in 'tube form' just for this reason...

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 05 December 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Getting warmer!

They are also easier to manufacture with less advanced industry and more electrically robust than transistors, both of which play into the lostech background of BattleTech.

Also they don't mind being hot, which I suppose is getting warmer. Ha!

AFAIK without doing a bunch of digging, those are really the only other advantages that might matter here.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 05 December 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Actually, it's not. It just requires more that superficial thinking. So why not think some more using what you know about the evolution of electronics and what you notice about electronic gadgets today. You'd be surprised of the things you take for granted these days.

That would be great if that sort of reasoning was relevant in this context, but it's not.

That said, I don't agree with removing the charge from IS gauss, I think that's a bad idea because the charge exists for multiple good reasons.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 December 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Zibmo]

Dimento Graven, on 04 December 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm sorry I am missing your point here.

Reload time pre-nerf was 4.0 seconds.
Post nerf, 5.5 seconds.

Recharge time pre-nerf was .75 seconds.
Post nerf, .75 seconds.

Pre-nerf, total cycle time to fire: 4.75 seconds
Post-nerf, total cycle time to fire, 5.25 seconds

This is true for both IS and Clan versions of the gauss.

Can you elaborate, because I'm not seeing any "buff"...

Post-nerf, total cycle time to fire (should read) 6.25 seconds.

Otherwise, accurate. I'm guessing a typo?

[edit] As to advantage of vacuum tube, there were actually several. Not the least of which is that tube based amplification naturally amplifies odd harmonics, while solid state amplify even. Odd harmonics sound better, which is why early transistor amps and audio equipment sounded like dog crap. [edit the second] Also, tubes are less affected by dirty power.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Edited by Zibmo, 05 December 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Dimento Graven, on 05 December 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

It's responses like these that make me question whether people in favor of this extreme nerf actually use gauss.

As anyone with significant experience using gauss knows, when a light is that close they are typically inside your firing arc and it's extremely difficult, near impossible, to reliable bring your gauss to bare on them.

Secondly, as everyone who has significant experience using gauss knows, it's very rare you can single shot a light.

Lastly, as everyone who actually has been paying attention to cockpit sizes, PGI has been steadily shrinking them over the years. A cockpit shot, EVEN UP CLOSE, on a target jittering around due to craptastic collision mechanics is an extremely difficult thing. I know this, as were at is easy as you are trying to imply, I'd have completed the "Guillotine" about a year ago at the latest...

I do use gauss, heavily. and the patch they introduced the charge mechanic I considered it a buff as it also increased projectile speed as well. The Charge made no different for me what so ever and it's velocity makes it one of the most accurate weapons in games. Also "inside your firing arc" I think that implies you can hit them, not that you don't, that would be outside your firing arc yes? On top of that.
If you meant outside the firing arc, all mechs in MW: O have a torso, and all mechs also have the ability to turn on the spot, and arms have also the ability to move independently from both. So using 1 or more of these 3 to move to bring the firing arc to the enemy light is pretty straight forward. It would be a problem if you had a gauss rifle on the cicada if it follow lore (aka no torso) where you can only aim forward but you can still have left and right leg motion.... still harder to hit a light than if you had a torso.
However I think you did not mean the term "Firing arc". It can be an issue for mechs like the stalker, direwolf, mauler, etc with very poor torso twist range and/or torso traverse speed and turning speed that a light can kill you but this would happen if you had Streaks', LBX, lasers, etc... weapons do not change your ability to turn or twist.

Perhaps for you, you have issues using the most accurate projectile weapon to hit light mechs. But for me it's no problem hitting light mechs. The only way it'll be easier if I used an LBX 10 which will obviously not deal it's full damage on a light. It'll hit it sure but not do much damage... Other option is lasers where you can spray... or well.... wave and pray?
Different people are accustomed to different weapons and such. Some people out there will land every single AC 10 shell where it is aimed at. or will effectively lock down or blind your mech with tactical use of flamers. Or do well in typical weapon arrangements or roles that MW: O do not do often ,such as juggernaut, skirmisher, etc.
If you have easier time letting it rip at a light mech with Ac 20's than feel free and go right ahead. I mean if you have issues with a light mech in close range and can reliably do the 20 damage pinpoint each hit than I would insist you should go with that and do your team a favour of smashing lights. Otherwise practice with the Gauss can help quite a bit.

Well with a single gauss- the best you can do with "Single shot" besides headshots is if the mech is damaged already and is a 20 to 25 ton, or mediumly damaged 30 to 35 tonners. However a very popular configuration of gauss is dual Gauss, common in mad dogs, jagermechs, warhawks, direwolfs, kingcrabs, maulers, etc. Which is 30 damage pinpoint, which will snap of legs or torsos of light mechs quite quickly and is often responsible for that 1 burst kill at light mechs at 700 meters range thinking they are safe strolling around. However again if you brought twin AC 20's, that's 40 damage and there is no doubt about it that a light will not last very long to a few shots or so.

[Dimento Graven]

Zibmo, on 05 December 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Post-nerf, total cycle time to fire (should read) 6.25 seconds.

Otherwise, accurate. I'm guessing a typo?

...

You are absolutely correct, I typo'd there.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mystere, on 05 December 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Actually, it's not. It just requires more that superficial thinking. So why not think some more using what you know about the evolution of electronics and what you notice about electronic gadgets today. You'd be surprised of the things you take for granted these days.

That doesn't matter. We're talking about video game balance. It's pure fantasy. Reality need not apply.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 December 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

That doesn't matter. We're talking about video game balance. It's pure fantasy. Reality need not apply.

And that's why balance in this game will always be out of whack. It's done by magic and fantasy, not careful design based on logic.

[Elizander]

Odins Steed, on 03 December 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

So I've had the opportunity to do a little bit of testing now. The biggest difference I noticed was the torso twist nerfs. It's going to be a big deal on the Timby which uses the A torso with negative movement quirks. You can try Taro's more spread out variant from page two if you want which will negate it. I haven't experimented with it yet.

The weapon set itself seems fine. I've spent most of my time in the EBJ. It took me a little to get my eye in with the slower movement, but after that I didn't notice the Gauss charge too much. Compared to the laser vomit builds I've tried since the patch, it still seems stronger in a lot of ways. Most of my reservations aren't about Gauss, but the clan nerfs and IS buffs. I think the place to look for our next bread and butter heavy will be an overquirked IS mech but it's too early to know which.

IS Gauss boats with any degree of cooldown quirk feel about the same as before. The strengths are mostly from the related IS buffs on an already strong weapon system. At the mid-to-long range bracket, I'm not sure anything can compete with the Gauss vomit weapon combos. Ghost heat kind of limits full energy boating at that range for IS and Gauss still beats out AC IMO.

As for the builds you linked:

Mauler can do an asymmetric 2G, 3LL (or even 3LPL if you've got big balls) with a stripped arm. Makes for a pretty solid peak profile and ups your range.

Ilya was something we discussed during PTS4 but never experimented with (we were trying to find what heros to pick for our MRBC winnings). On paper it looked decent though. Mush had some crazy dual Gauss, LL build on it as well. Might be worth looking into.

Well I tinkered around with it on Smurfy. The stupid slow extreme version that goes at 61 kph has 2 Gauss, 2 LL and 4 tons ammo.

ILYA MUROMETS

You can drop the LL and add back more leg armor and up the engine to something more reasonable if you just want one.

Guess I'll go play the stupid slow one in solo queue for awhile.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mystere, on 06 December 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

And that's why balance in this game will always be out of whack. It's done by magic and fantasy, not careful design based on logic.

What are you even talking about? You're basing your balancing argument on the fact that Clan Gauss rifles are "newer" than IS Gauss, and should be a direct upgrade as a result. In case you haven't noticed, there's nothing logical about the Battletech franchise. It's pure fantasy.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 December 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

What are you even talking about? You're basing your balancing argument on the fact that Clan Gauss rifles are "newer" than IS Gauss, and should be a direct upgrade as a result. In case you haven't noticed, there's nothing logical about the Battletech franchise. It's pure fantasy.

Methinks you missed the point.