215 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Elizander, on 03 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

The HBK-4SP is similarly broken in stats but gets no love.

The HBK-4SP wasn't exactly a strong chassis pre-patch. I think the additional tankiness puts it more in line with where it should be, but it doesn't dish out damage or win trades nearly as well as a BJ-1X.

[Monkey Lover]

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

The 3 mediums commonly used in comp play were the SCR, WVR-6K and BJ-1X. The BJ-1X has been fantastic for shooting over terrain and making good trades for a while now. Yes, the BJ-1X has been a strong mech for a while now.

It is a good mech but I don't agree its some "very strong" op mech. You don't see people running 3 of these in a drop deck. In group Q more people use the crabs right now. I still score much higher in my crow.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 December 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[DivineEvil]

I personally never seen 1X before we ourselves begun running them in limited numbers. Then people kinda jumped on hypre train, but before the patch they were... ok.

As it goes for the patch, it really seems, that it's just a test of how IS mechs would run with double internal structure. I can understnad how now it is broken, but I personally fine if it would be as tanky as it is now, if other quirks are significantly turned down.

Well, I'm actually fine with all IS mechs having double internal structure, as long as both IS and Clans are quirked roughly equally on top of that. I'm still puzzled why PGI wouldn't just turn these into "structure strength +100%" if they test it trough quirks. It's effectively the same thing, except for head component.

[pwnface]

Monkey Lover, on 03 December 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

It is a good mech but I don't agree its some "very strong" op mech. You don't see people running 3 of these in a drop deck. In group Q more people use the crabs right now. I still score much higher in my crow.

You didn't before but you might now. For the additional 10 tons, the WVR-6K has a lot more reach so it was more widely used.

Don't you think it would be ridiculous if we gave the BJ structure quirks to the WVR-6K? I'd say it would be completely out of balance as well.

[Sandpit]

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

While Areseye's "evidence" of the BJ-1X is flawed, he isn't wrong. The BJ-1X is way too strong right now, especially for a 45t medium mech. Anytime I can put together 3 or 4 matches in a row breaking 1k damage WHILE leveling my basics, I know something is not right.

Evidence is what's used to determine that.

I've seen mroe BJs lately, but I honestly haven't seen them do anything "op" either. I see them being pretty effective, especially with their mobility, but that's what a BJ was always supposed to be. A mobile energy and dakka platform that provides mobile support where needed.

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe you are bad at mediums? I don't know what to tell you. The BJ-1X performs on par with both the STK-4N and BLR-1G for me currently and I think it's disgusting.

blanket statements like these are NEVER accurate though. Just like you stated, not every player is going to be "good" at certain weight classes, builds, etc.

That's another reason true balance in a game like this is near impossible. You can never account for human interaction and individual skill levels.

Monkey Lover, on 03 December 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

It is a good mech but I don't agree its some "very strong" op mech. You don't see people running 3 of these in a drop deck. In group Q more people use the crabs right now. I still score much higher in my crow.

I've used both mechs and I love the crab more on every level.

[pwnface]

Sandpit, on 03 December 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

blanket statements like these are NEVER accurate though. Just like you stated, not every player is going to be "good" at certain weight classes, builds, etc.

That's another reason true balance in a game like this is near impossible. You can never account for human interaction and individual skill levels.

That's why you should try to remove the human element out of the equation. You should determine how strong a mech is by what the mech is capable of doing not by what the average player can do with it.

If I beat your Ferrari in a drag race in my Honda Civic, it doesn't mean the Ferrari is a slower car than the Civic. Measure the cars based on what they are capable by removing the margin for human error.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

The best honest answer I can tell you is... there were two posts made in the PTS4 quirks for the mech.

That's how under the radar it got.

The surprise is not entirely on the mech you are referring to though (it's a related variant).


<3 BJs

BJ-1DC stronk. Even a build as simple as 1x LL + 1x AC/10 is freakishly effective with a 25% cool-down bonus on ballistics!

BJ-3 is also utterly ridiculous. It's worse than it was on the first quirk pass, where it had 792 m on a standard PPC with module. Sure, it's only 702 m now, but good god does it run positively frosty. So frosty, that you can comfortably run it with dual ER PPC.

BJ-1 is no slouch either, not with the same energy range quirks as the -1DC. But those f*ckin' AC/2s man!

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Russ is already considering a small nerf to the BJ-1X, so calm down.

How small is small?

From where I'm sitting the only real buff to the BJ-1X vs. pre-patch is the structure. Everything else is identical or worse. The Accel and turn buffs just keep it where it was pre-patch, the laser duration is slightly longer, and all mediums were linked in ghost heat.

That said, I don't think it needed such a huge structure buff. It's like PGI saw the IS had one 'Mech that offered a potential hard-rival for the Storm Crow, and they buffed the crap out of it to make it so.

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 December 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

- The SCR can run streaks.

You say that like it's not a legitimate threat. I can't tell you the number of times my Blackjacks got utterly destroyed by Streak Crows pre-patch, it was awful. There was nothing any Blackjack could do to put up a fight against a committed Streak Crow unless you caught that Crow crossing an open field, and even then he can still fire those Streaks from beyond your lasers' optimum ranges.

That said...I do think the structure buffs are hilarious and, except on the BJ-1 and BJ-A which need to roll face, unnecessary.

[Aresye]

Sandpit, on 03 December 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

When your scientific basis for your argument is based on "I seens a lot of em in a couple of games and I see competitive players using them" to determine whether a mech is "op", I sincerely doubt the validity of anything else presented.

It's hard to take people seriously when they very seriously consider the above "good" data collection to make an argument for balance.

The evidence lies in the fact that:
- It has double the internal structure for all components.
- It has extremely high mounted hardpoints, nearly all of which are perfectly in the line with the cockpit.
- It has 60% acceleration and 30% deceleration quirks (it's like having MASC on 100% of the time with no downsides).
- It has energy range quirks that give its MLs a very respectable reach.
- It has a very narrow profile for both front and side.
- It's a humanoid mech with rectangular hitboxes.
- It runs at 114.2kph
- It has no lower arm actuators, so no side-side convergence issues.
- It's used in high level competitive play.

[Lyoto Machida]

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Stuff like this should never even make it to the live servers.

Why did this even come up on their drawing boards? Because they have no idea how their own game works.

We have a Tier 5 scrub in charge of gameplay balance.

You'd have to actually play the game to be Tier 5.

[MischiefSC]

So the BJ-1X lives and dies on your twist skills. Pwnface rocks the BJ for the same reason he loves/loved his Dragon 1N. It's a specific skill set that's different from the hill humpery of the Stalker. Protect dat arm = twist dat fat torso sideways.

Most of us will find the BJ a fragile mech at the range it needs to play at. It's powerful out of scope for its tonnage, much like the Scrow, CB, TW, ACH et al. It's still only 45 though. However it's way out of scope for its size.

[pwnface]

MischiefSC, on 03 December 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

So the BJ-1X lives and dies on your twist skills. Pwnface rocks the BJ for the same reason he loves/loved his Dragon 1N. It's a specific skill set that's different from the hill humpery of the Stalker. Protect dat arm = twist dat fat torso sideways.

Most of us will find the BJ a fragile mech at the range it needs to play at. It's powerful out of scope for its tonnage, much like the Scrow, CB, TW, ACH et al. It's still only 45 though. However it's way out of scope for its size.

Honestly the only time you need to twist in a BJ-1X is if you are getting swarmed or don't have cover. Peeking over terrain I don't even bother torso twisting half the time because the acceleration is so high I can just back into cover immediately. Brawling against say an SRM TBR though, torso twisting and using up your enormous structure hit points can net you a win.

Edited by pwnface, 03 December 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[sycocys]

Just did some dropping with the 1X.

My observation is that it really didn't feel any more or less OP than before. Less damage overall (600ish instead of 7-800+), more kills overall - both which I am attributing to the fact that there are 5 MADs on the field and Atlases actually have hp now. Basically its still a superfast ML ninja with high weapon mounts.

Compared to my other ML meds like the Sparky and 4P it seems like its right about in its place.

Edited by sycocys, 03 December 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 03 December 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Honestly the only time you need to twist in a BJ-1X is if you are getting swarmed or don't have cover. Peeking over terrain I don't even bother torso twisting half the time because the acceleration is so high I can just back into cover immediately. Brawling against say an SRM TBR though, torso twisting and using up your enormous structure hit points can net you a win.

Peeking at 270m is a whole other game from peeking at 500m. You do a lot more twisting and repositioning in a BJ than a stalker. That's why almost everyone can rock the Stalker but some people love the BJ, some hate it.

[Navid A1]

check this:

http://mwomercs.com/...pst-630-pm-utc/


BJ-1x is getting "slightly" nerfed!

Edited by Navid A1, 03 December 2015 - 07:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 December 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

BJ-1DC stronk. Even a build as simple as 1x LL + 1x AC/10 is freakishly effective with a 25% cool-down bonus on ballistics!

BJ-3 is also utterly ridiculous. It's worse than it was on the first quirk pass, where it had 792 m on a standard PPC with module. Sure, it's only 702 m now, but good god does it run positively frosty. So frosty, that you can comfortably run it with dual ER PPC.

BJ-1 is no slouch either, not with the same energy range quirks as the -1DC. But those f*ckin' AC/2s man!

If you actually bothered to calculate the heat generated by the PPC... it's reverted to a # MUCH friendly than the original meta's height.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

If you actually bothered to calculate the heat generated by the PPC... it's reverted to a # MUCH friendly than the original meta's height.

I didn't bother, for once. All I know is I can spam-fire them all day long with incredible range.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 December 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

I didn't bother, for once. All I know is I can spam-fire them all day long with incredible range.

That's exactly what it is..

Magic # is 7.

[El Bandito]

Navid A1, on 03 December 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

check this:

http://mwomercs.com/...pst-630-pm-utc/


BJ-1x is getting "slightly" nerfed!

BJ-1X
Energy Range Quirk has been decreased to +10%.
Laser Duration Quirk has been removed.
Energy Heat Gen Quirk has been decreased to -10%.

Oh man, this is some major nerfage on BJ-1X's offense. Good thing I never quirk chase and get burned by the nerf hammer.

[sycocys]

What would have made more sense is simply not letting it stuff an xl295 in while the rest fit 235. Lowering those quirks will only slow it down mildly, it will still be a 114kph 8ML ninja. No duration will actually help it manage its heat better even with the +10 debuff to cooling.

Also the 1DC has only 5% less range than the TDR-5SS. Zero ghost heat alpha and room for an ac2 or dual machine guns to strafe internals with. Or 6ML + Dual AC2 pestering that almost never overheats.

Either way the 1X would have been fairly inline even with its quirks if it couldn't fit an xl295.

Edited by sycocys, 03 December 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[FupDup]

sycocys, on 03 December 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

What would have made more sense is simply not letting it stuff an xl295 in while the rest fit 235. Lowering those quirks will only slow it down mildly, it will still be a 114kph 8ML ninja. No duration will actually help it manage its heat better even with the +10 debuff to cooling.

Also the 1DC has only 5% less range than the TDR-5SS. Zero ghost heat alpha and room for an ac2 or dual machine guns to strafe internals with. Or 6ML + Dual AC2 pestering that almost never overheats.

Either way the 1X would have been fairly inline even with its quirks if it couldn't fit an xl295.

I think that no BJ (or Vindi for that matter) should have an engine cap below 250, because TruDubs.