198 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?

• Mechs are not skyscrapers. Mechs are (according to sarna) 10-20 meters (30-60 feet) which is not that big (the actual size of Battlemechs is questionable as multiple sources list them at difference sizes).
  
• Mechs use myomers to move. Myomers are artificial muscles designed to imitate biological muscles but with much greater strength.
  
• Mechs use the human pilots sense of balance to control its movements.

That leaves a Battlemechs mass as the cause of its "slow and lumbering" persona. While 60 tons may seem like a great amount, an M1 Abrams tank also weighs in at 60 tons.



For comparison:

• Top Speed: An Abrams tops out at 45 mph (72 kph) while a 60 ton Battlemech can top out anywhere from 64 kph to 86 kph (they can be faster or slower depending on the engine used).
  
• Acceleration: An Abrams tank takes about 30 seconds to reach top speed.

While this may seem a bit arbitrary, there is an important factor here that has been over looked. An Abrams engine outputs 1,120 kw of power and the goal for the first fusion reactors is 500,000 kw (we can expect this to increase as the technology develops, similar to how piston engines and turbines have become more powerful and efficient).


1,120 kw vs 500,000 kw

I would expect a Battlemech with that much more power and the same top speed to have a drastically better acceleration rate than an Abrams. While we do not know how much power is required to move a mech, keep its systems operational, or fire its weapons, it is likely Battlemechs have near infinite power provided they have fuel. A mech only shuts down when its heat becomes too great for it to contain, there is no indication of mechs running out of power.

Finally lets compare some athletic human beings:

Here is an example of Offensive Linemen in American Football running a 40 yard dash:


Here is an example of a small Wide Receiver in American Football running a 40 yard dash:


If the OL is the equivalent of an Heavy or Assault Mech than the WR is the equivalent of a Light or Medium Mech. The Offensive Lineman weighs about twice as much as the Wide Receiver (306 to 156) and is only 0.36 seconds slower (4.65 to 4.29). Thus the WR will have a greater top speed than the OL but as we can see in the videos their acceleration is roughly equal. Granted I chose two very fast players at their respective positions, I think we can expect the Engineers designing Battlemechs to build them to the pinnacle of the human physique.

Here are some examples of human agility:


If a mech is built like a human and controlled by a human then it will perform like a human provided its skeleton can withstand the forces the myomers impart on it while under strain. The fact that Triple Strength Myomers do not tear a mech apart is evidence enough that normal myomer have no problems moving a mechs skeleton without damaging it.

TL;DR
Battlemechs are not the slow, lumbering machines you have been led to believe but are actually fast, agile, and capable of the kinds of complex maneuvers a human being is capable of.

edit*
please do not quote this whole post but only the parts you wish to address.

Edited by Homeskilit, 03 December 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Because people can't seem to handle a mech fighting game that played like this:



edit: that and timber wolf is scary.

Edited by Dakota1000, 03 December 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[Sandpit]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?

maybe because the absolute fastest mech in the game runs 99MPH?
possibly because heavies and assaults are moving at the equivalent of about 45MPH or so?

[Lyoto Machida]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?

• Mechs are not skyscrapers. Mechs are (according to sarna) 10-20 meters (30-60 feet) which is not that big (the actual size of Battlemechs is questionable as multiple sources list them at difference sizes).
  
• Mechs use myomers to move. Myomers are artificial muscles designed to imitate biological muscles but with much greater strength.
  
• Mechs use the human pilots sense of balance to control its movements.

That leaves a Battlemechs mass as the cause of its "slow and lumbering" persona. While 60 tons may seem like a great amount, an M1 Abrams tank also weighs in at 60 tons.




For comparison:

• Top Speed: An Abrams tops out at 45 mph (72 kph) while a 60 ton Battlemech can top out anywhere from 64 kph to 86 kph (they can be faster or slower depending on the engine used).
  
• Acceleration: An Abrams tank takes about 30 seconds to reach top speed.

While this may seem a bit arbitrary, there is an important factor here that has been over looked. An Abrams engine outputs 1,120 kw of power and the goal for the first fusion reactors is 500,000 kw (we can expect this to increase as the technology develops, similar to how piston engines and turbines have become more powerful and efficient).



1,120 kw vs 500,000 kw

I would expect a Battlemech with that much more power and the same top speed to have a drastically better acceleration rate than an Abrams. While we do not know how much power is required to move a mech, keep its systems operational, or fire its weapons, it is likely Battlemechs have near infinite power provided they have fuel. A mech only shuts down when its heat becomes too great for it to contain, there is no indication of mechs running out of power.

Finally lets compare some athletic human beings:

Here is an example of Offensive Linemen in American Football running a 40 yard dash:


Here is an example of a small Wide Receiver in American Football running a 40 yard dash:


If the OL is the equivalent of an Heavy or Assault Mech than the WR is the equivalent of a Light or Medium Mech. The Offensive Lineman weighs about twice as much as the Wide Receiver (306 to 156) and is only 0.36 seconds slower (4.65 to 4.29). Thus the WR will have a greater top speed than the OL but as we can see in the videos their acceleration is roughly equal. Granted I chose two very fast players at their respective positions, I think we can expect the Engineers designing Battlemechs to build them to the pinnacle of the human physique.

Here are some examples of human agility:


If a mech is built like a human and controlled by a human then it will perform like a human provided its skeleton can withstand the forces the myomers impart on it while under strain. The fact that Triple Strength Myomers do not tear a mech apart is evidence enough that normal myomer have no problems moving a mechs skeleton without damaging it.

TL;DR
Battlemechs are not the slow, lumbering machines you have been led to believe but are actually fast, agile, and capable of the kinds of complex maneuvers a human being is capable of.

DBs are the hardest hitters in football as well...due to speed. People always say that assaults couldn't be knocked down by mediums or whatever but how fast is that medium moving?

I mean...this is a DB hitting an OL. Probably around a 100lb difference...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sandpit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

maybe because the absolute fastest mech in the game runs 99MPH?
possibly because heavies and assaults are moving at the equivalent of about 45MPH or so?

Issue with that mentallity is that top speed =/= agility.

I don't know any people that run 45mph, or even 30 mph, though in general people aren't slow lumbering beasts that take 5 seconds to do a 360.

[TyphonCh]

While all that 'proof' is fascinating and all, mechs are not your traditional tank. Mech's are tall, with two legs. That is a ton of weight to support when it's walking, let alone going +80 kp/h.
9 times out of 10, 60-75% of that weight is in the upper body. (Atlas anyone?)
A 45 ton Blackjack, can hold a 14 ton weapon in it's arm. That's almost a third of it's body weight in one arm. I have a time believing half of these mechs in BT can even walk down a slope without falling down

[Sandpit]

Dakota1000, on 03 December 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

Issue with that mentallity is that top speed =/= agility.

I don't know any people that run 45mph, or even 30 mph, though in general people aren't slow lumbering beasts that take 5 seconds to do a 360.

[color=#959595]Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?[/color]

Mechs are not and never have been in the history of Btech been described as "nimble" in the sense that you're talking about and trying to compare them to the mobility of a human. Their myomers, gyros, etc. aren't able to lend them that kind of mobility.

Where did people get this idea from?
PSR rolls for things like (Piloting Skill Roll)
going prone
standing up
keeping balance if hit with 20+ in a single round
one crit on a gyrp causing PSR for anything above a walk at a +5 modifier
walking over rubble
turning on pavement if you are moving faster than a walk
getting rammed
kicking another mech
getting kicked

I can go on if you like

That would be where people got the idea that mechs are big lumbering tanks and not nimble human exoskeletons

[Lyoto Machida]

Team Chevy86, on 03 December 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

While all that 'proof' is fascinating and all, mechs are not your traditional tank. Mech's are tall, with two legs. That is a ton of weight to support when it's walking, let alone going +80 kp/h.
9 times out of 10, 60-75% of that weight is in the upper body. (Atlas anyone?)
A 45 ton Blackjack, can hold a 14 ton weapon in it's arm. That's almost a third of it's body weight in one arm. I have a time believing half of these mechs in BT can even walk down a slope without falling down

Where's the center of gravity though?

[Triordinant]

Mechwarrior is NOT supposed to be a twitch shooter. There are a hundred other games for that. Mechwarrior is where you go for the big, the slow and the lumbering. Speed, agility and jumping around like monkeys is for other games.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sandpit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

[color=#959595]Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?[/color]

Mechs are not and never have been in the history of Btech been described as "nimble" in the sense that you're talking about and trying to compare them to the mobility of a human. Their myomers, gyros, etc. aren't able to lend them that kind of mobility.

Where did people get this idea from?
PSR rolls for things like (Piloting Skill Roll)
going prone
standing up
keeping balance if hit with 20+ in a single round
one crit on a gyrp causing PSR for anything above a walk at a +5 modifier
walking over rubble
turning on pavement if you are moving faster than a walk
getting rammed
kicking another mech
getting kicked

I can go on if you like

That would be where people got the idea that mechs are big lumbering tanks and not nimble human exoskeletons

I do believe people get the idea that mechs are "nimble" from their abilities to do those things you listed.

I'm not saying that mechs should be moving around just like a person, but I am saying that this game's setup with mechs basically being tanks with legs and arms on the turret isn't an accurate representation of what mechs *can* do.

That said, I don't plan on the game changing to have all those abilities anyway.

[Scar Glamour]

If an Atlas can turn as fast as an ACH, well... lights are going to be out of favor fast.

[Strum Wealh]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Mechs are not skyscrapers. Mechs are (according to sarna) 10-20 meters (30-60 feet) which is not that big (the actual size of Battlemechs is questionable as multiple sources list them at difference sizes).

As a point of correction:

• The official range of heights for BattleMechs, according to the BT rulebooks & sourcebooks (and Herb A. Beas II, (former?) Line Developer for BT), is 8 to 14 meters (26.25 to 45.93 feet).
  
• According to the sourcebooks & a number of the novels, the vast majority of BattleMechs - of all weight classes - are between 10 and 12 meters (32.81 to 39.37 feet) tall.
  
• By TT gameplay rules, BattleMechs are up to two Levels tall, where a Level is defined to be six meters (19.69 feet); an obstacle one Level (6 meters) tall will provide partial cover for a 'Mech, while an obstacle two Levels (12 meters) tall will provide complete cover for a 'Mech.

[Signal27]

Homeskilit, the problem I have with the argument presented in your OP is that you use clips of pro-athletes hardly encumbered by anything as examples of human motion. Battlemechs have heaps upon heaps of armor, weapons, ammo, and heat sinks loaded into them and weighing them down. So I feel this would be a more accurate representation of the human motion afforded to BattleMechs loaded down with all that stuff:



Thus I can understand where the PGI devs are coming from when they state they want Mechs to feel like walking tanks.

Edited by Signal27, 03 December 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[Homeskilit]

Sandpit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

[color=#959595]Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?[/color]

Mechs are not and never have been in the history of Btech been described as "nimble" in the sense that you're talking about and trying to compare them to the mobility of a human. Their myomers, gyros, etc. aren't able to lend them that kind of mobility.

Where did people get this idea from?
PSR rolls for things like (Piloting Skill Roll)
going prone
standing up
keeping balance if hit with 20+ in a single round
one crit on a gyrp causing PSR for anything above a walk at a +5 modifier
walking over rubble
turning on pavement if you are moving faster than a walk
getting rammed
kicking another mech
getting kicked

I can go on if you like

That would be where people got the idea that mechs are big lumbering tanks and not nimble human exoskeletons

The difference being pilot skill. Just like the things professional athletes do cannot be replicated by the average person, so the average pilot cannot replicate the things great pilots can. That does not mean the mech itself is not capable of such movements.

[Sandpit]

Dakota1000, on 03 December 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

I do believe people get the idea that mechs are "nimble" from their abilities to do those things you listed.

I'm not saying that mechs should be moving around just like a person, but I am saying that this game's setup with mechs basically being tanks with legs and arms on the turret isn't an accurate representation of what mechs *can* do.

That said, I don't plan on the game changing to have all those abilities anyway.

maybe you missed the part where I said you had to make piloting skill rolls to perform all of those things? With modifiers and if you failed you fell over.
generic pilot has a 4 piloting skill

2d6 system

add the modifiers to that 4 and roll for each one of those multiple times per round. plus some of them stack.

They ARE tanks with arms and legs, they were specifically designed and the entire game was designed around that very concept from conception to now. I'm just letting you know why and where people agree with and/or get the idea that mechs aren't these nimble exoskeletons that dance around the map.

They're slow, cumbersome, bulky, hot, inefficient, etc. and they weren't maintained very well. Many mechs were centuries old and handed down through families over generations.

The timeline MWO is currently in is slightly better in terms of technology and such but not by much. It wasn't until after they started locating lostech and integrating clan technology that they started getting some of the more advanced stuff.

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

The difference being pilot skill. Just like the things professional athletes do cannot be replicated by the average person, so the average pilot cannot replicate the things great pilots can. That does not mean the mech itself is not capable of such movements.

see above

[Homeskilit]

Signal27, on 03 December 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

Homeskilit, the problem I have with the argument presented in your OP is that you use pictures of pro-athletes hardly encumbered by anything as examples of human motion. Battlemechs have heaps upon heaps of armor, weapons, ammo, and heat sinks loaded into them and weighing them down. So I feel this would be a more accurate representation of the human motion afforded to BattleMechs loaded down with all that stuff:

Thus I can understand where the PGI devs are coming from when they state they want Mechs to feel like walking tanks.

I addressed this. A fusion reactor would provide near infinite power. The weight is a not an issue but the stress on its joints and skeletal structure is. Since Triple Strength Myomers do not tear mechs apart, there is no reason to assume normal myomers would either. Therefore the skeleton is not a problem and the myomers will provide mechs with the same range of motions as a human. If anything i would expect there to be fail safes to slow myomers down.

There is nothing keeping a Battlemech from performing like a human would other than people's perception of what a Battlemech is.

[Signal27]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

I addressed this. A fusion reactor would provide near infinite power. The weight is a not an issue but the stress on its joints and skeletal structure is. Since Triple Strength Myomers do not tear mechs apart, there is no reason to assume normal myomers would either. Therefore the skeleton is not a problem and the myomers will provide mechs with the same range of motions as a human. If anything i would expect there to be fail safes to slow myomers down.

And the problem with this argument is that we'd then be arguing just how effective each piece of fantasy technology is. Would a fusion reactor REALLY provide NEAR INFINITE power? So why do we have engine ratings? Are myomers REALLY that strong to move as fast as you think they should? We could argue about this until we're blue in the face but it all really boils down to what you already said:

Quote

There is nothing keeping a Battlemech from performing like a human would other than people's perception of what a Battlemech is.

Exactly. And it just so happens that the perception a Battlemech is a walking tank is a legitimate perception many of us have.

Edited by Signal27, 03 December 2015 - 06:44 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Where are people getting the idea that a Battlemech is a big, slow, lumbering machine?

• Mechs are not skyscrapers. Mechs are (according to sarna) 10-20 meters (30-60 feet) which is not that big (the actual size of Battlemechs is questionable as multiple sources list them at difference sizes).
  
• Mechs use myomers to move. Myomers are artificial muscles designed to imitate biological muscles but with much greater strength.
  
• Mechs use the human pilots sense of balance to control its movements.

That leaves a Battlemechs mass as the cause of its "slow and lumbering" persona. While 60 tons may seem like a great amount, an M1 Abrams tank also weighs in at 60 tons.





For comparison:

• Top Speed: An Abrams tops out at 45 mph (72 kph) while a 60 ton Battlemech can top out anywhere from 64 kph to 86 kph (they can be faster or slower depending on the engine used).
  
• Acceleration: An Abrams tank takes about 30 seconds to reach top speed.

While this may seem a bit arbitrary, there is an important factor here that has been over looked. An Abrams engine outputs 1,120 kw of power and the goal for the first fusion reactors is 500,000 kw (we can expect this to increase as the technology develops, similar to how piston engines and turbines have become more powerful and efficient).




1,120 kw vs 500,000 kw

I would expect a Battlemech with that much more power and the same top speed to have a drastically better acceleration rate than an Abrams. While we do not know how much power is required to move a mech, keep its systems operational, or fire its weapons, it is likely Battlemechs have near infinite power provided they have fuel. A mech only shuts down when its heat becomes too great for it to contain, there is no indication of mechs running out of power.

Finally lets compare some athletic human beings:

Here is an example of Offensive Linemen in American Football running a 40 yard dash:


Here is an example of a small Wide Receiver in American Football running a 40 yard dash:


If the OL is the equivalent of an Heavy or Assault Mech than the WR is the equivalent of a Light or Medium Mech. The Offensive Lineman weighs about twice as much as the Wide Receiver (306 to 156) and is only 0.36 seconds slower (4.65 to 4.29). Thus the WR will have a greater top speed than the OL but as we can see in the videos their acceleration is roughly equal. Granted I chose two very fast players at their respective positions, I think we can expect the Engineers designing Battlemechs to build them to the pinnacle of the human physique.

Here are some examples of human agility:


If a mech is built like a human and controlled by a human then it will perform like a human provided its skeleton can withstand the forces the myomers impart on it while under strain. The fact that Triple Strength Myomers do not tear a mech apart is evidence enough that normal myomer have no problems moving a mechs skeleton without damaging it.

TL;DR
Battlemechs are not the slow, lumbering machines you have been led to believe but are actually fast, agile, and capable of the kinds of complex maneuvers a human being is capable of.

edit*
please do not quote this whole post but only the parts you wish to address.

Myomers muscles don't change the basic laws of physics. 70 tons of moving metal doesn't do backflips and turn on a dime, regardless of the method of articulation. The myomers allow it to mimic humanoid range of motion more naturally than servos would, but it doesn't make them super agile.

Also, since they are being "crudely" manipulated by manual controls, not some instant thought impulses (neurohelmet simply gives they gyroscopes your sense of balance), that further limits them.

Myomers or no, at 17 meters and 100 metric tons, an Atlas simply cannot turn on a dime, and movements are magnified the larger you are because of mass and distance, so Anime like snap punches, etc, simply do not happen. Even a 20 ton locust "planting off" like a basketball player, to turn has to counter the momentum of 20 tons moving at 150 kph (or 41 m/s)

Go figure the shear stress generated by that momentum (or from 100 tons at 50 kph), and that SHOULD show why having groovy muscles and gyros doesn't negate basic physics. Especially as an tall, upright object. To try to turn fast, the LOWER something sits, and the wider it's base, the better.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 December 2015 - 07:07 PM.

[El Bandito]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

There is nothing keeping a Battlemech from performing like a human would other than people's perception of what a Battlemech is.

Yet in the novels there are plenty of examples of Medium and Light mechs falling down after trying to make a tight turn a human being would otherwise do it without issue. And even Kai Allard-Liao cannot to a backflip with his Yen Lo Wang.

Battlemechs are only unique in the fact that it can climb rough terrain other vehicles cannot traverse.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 December 2015 - 06:55 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Signal27, on 03 December 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

And the problem with this argument is that we'd then be arguing just how effective each piece of fantasy technology is. Would a fusion reactor REALLY provide NEAR INFINITE power? So why do we have engine ratings? Are myomers REALLY that strong to move as fast as you think they should? We could argue about this until we're blue in the face but it all really boils down to what you already said:


Exactly. And it just so happens that the perception a Battlemech is a walking tank is a legitimate perception many of us have.

it's not just how much power a fusion reactor could generate...it's how much it can generate on demand (and even in btech lore a Gauss rifle maxes out the available output of a generator forcing the weapons to fire off sequentially, instead of in tandem). But more to point you can generate all the power in the world and unless there is some way to harness it to counter basic momentum (aka thrusters, or the like... human musculature certainly doesn't overcome basic force) and then you have to also address the gforces being piled on the pilot by these instantaneous anime movement.

Basically the argument becomes "because space magic make it seem cool".



Most important detail? The game designers feel that a more lumbering feel is what they want. So people just need to deal.

El Bandito, on 03 December 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Yet in the novels there are plenty of examples of Medium and Light mechs falling down after trying to make a tight turn a human being would otherwise do it without issue. And even Kai Allard-Liao cannot to a backflip with his Yen Lo Wang.

Battlemechs are only unique in the fact that it can climb rough terrain other vehicles cannot traverse.

and simple fact, even if one had a perfect analogue of a human that could somehow resist the stresses of the magnified size without collapsing on itself, the differences in size, mass and space cannot just be overcome by handwavium.