198 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

Sandpit, why are you so stuck on the TT?

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Sandpit, why are you so stuck on the TT?

because that is the basis for everything Mechwarrior.. hence that little "a battletech game" tag on the title?

[Zen Idiot]

if you wanna compare this game to reality, you should be reminded that an Atlas, in RL, would crumple under it's own weight. so just enjoy the sci-fi robot shooter...

[Homeskilit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

because that is the basis for everything Mechwarrior.. hence that little "a battletech game" tag on the title?

It is the basis for it, not the the written law on it. Also it was created as a dice game so it needed dice rules that worked for it.

ZenIdiot, on 04 December 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

if you wanna compare this game to reality, you should be reminded that an Atlas, in RL, would crumple under it's own weight. so just enjoy the sci-fi robot shooter...

You have no idea what at Atlas structure is made of or how much force it can withstand before crumbling.

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

It is the basis for it, not the the written law on it. Also it was created as a dice game so it needed dice rules that worked for it.



You have no idea what at Atlas structure is made of or how much force it can withstand before crumbling.

missing the point. Dice or not, things like changing direction while running, jumping, running on pavement were all intentionally made high difficulty maneuvers.

Even as a "board game with dice" they could have been made as easy to make rolls, and yet they weren't...indicating a distinct lack of "nimbleness" on the part of the average mech.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

missing the point. Dice or not, things like changing direction while running, jumping, running on pavement were all intentionally made high difficulty maneuvers.

Even as a "board game with dice" they could have been made as easy to make rolls, and yet they weren't...indicating a distinct lack of "nimbleness" on the part of the average mech.

lol "It's a video game, not a board game" is usually the go to argument for these kinds of suggestions.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should or that it would be "good".

I can eat an entire large pizza from Pizza Hut. Doesn't mean I should because I'll pay for it in a lot of different ways.

There are a few games out there that do the kinds of stuff some people on the forums ask for, I just never have and never will udnerstand how you read about a game, learn what it's about, play the game, then suggest that the entire premise of the game and major overhauls to every piece of the game itself be done. If you didn't like the game or you like a certain play style sometimes that is offered in other games, go play them.

It would be like me posting on the Madden forums requesting that they change and incorporate flag football rules because there's a "basis in history and canon for it" and "because it's a video game so there's no need to stick to the premise of the original IP and rules that the game itself is based on"

[Strum Wealh]

As an additional point of consideration, there are the further examples of the Noisiel Summer Games (described in the 2005 sourcebook, Mercenaries Supplemental II) and the "BattleMech Calisthenics Drill" (described in the 1991 novel, Falcon Guard).

Quote

The first Noisiel Summer Games were held in 3047, when Duke Michael - founder and CEO of Alextep Engineering Services (an interstellar producer of civilian and military engineering vehicles and equipment) - challenged his son and chief business rival, Heinrich (himself founder and CEO of Heinrich SupporTech Interstellar), to a unique form of BattleMech duel. Intended to resolve a professional conflict over who would bid on a government contract, the Alexteps planned to hold their duel in public on the rolling hills of Duke Michael’s Teppokhan Prime estate and invited all citizens to attend. The modest ticket price, both men also decided, would be divided evenly among local charities and a fund to pay for any repairs needed on the two family-owned Atlases used in the duel.
But while both Alexteps were accomplished MechWarriors and their machines would carry live ammunition, this was not to be a conventional duel by any stretch of the imagination.
Instead, Duke Michael’s challenge amounted to a one-on-one game of BattleMech-sized rugby, with a large, half-ton, ballistic-polymer sphere serving as the ball and a full square kilometer of the Alextep estate serving as the playing field.

The event, advertised by local media consortiums on several neighboring worlds, brought scores of spectators and proved an amazing success, and in the wake of the Clan invasion—after the younger Alextep served a tour in the AFFC on the Clan front—the Noisiel Summer Games became a part of local tradition and a huge boost for the planet’s tourism and entertainment industries.
In the years after the Clan invasion, the Alextep family has vastly expanded their Games to include a wide range of sports and opened the competitions to MechWarriors from Solaris and well as mercenaries looking for a break from the backstabbing politics of normal Inner Sphere life. Now a 12-day event held every local summer, the Games are part ’Mech show and part talent competition, but one which emphasizes more piloting skill and finesse than kill ratios. MechWarriors taking part in the Games are expected to compete in a variety of sports “upgraded” to BattleMech scale, including baseball, football, hockey, and chess. Unique BattleMech-based “talent shows”, parades, and pageants round out these festivities.

(Mercenaries Supplemental II, pgs. 17-18)

Quote

Joanna came into Aidan's office one day. "Go to your window, Star Colonel," she said.

Looking out, he saw the entire Falcon Guards on the field, all the pilots in their 'Mechs, all the Elementals in their battle armor. MechWarrior Diana stood on a recently constructed platform. At a signal from Joanna, she gestured toward the assembled troops.

In almost a single precise movement, all the BattleMechs, all the Elementals, raised their left arms to a chest-high position. This was followed by the right arms, which went past the chest position and raised up, stopping at an oblique angle, all of them in approximately the same position. Then each arm was lowered separately.

At the next signal from Diana, each of the BattleMech torsos inclined first to the right, stopped simultaneously, then in synchronization, inclined to the left. After holding the pose for a moment, all the BattleMechs returned to the upright position.

These were just the beginning of nearly an hour of precise drills, sometimes just the BattleMechs, sometimes just the Elementals. At the end, they formed into marching units and left the field in a precision drill.

Aidan, who had been spellbound by the demonstration, finally turned to Joanna and said, "I am impressed. But just what in the name of Kerensky was happening there?"

"Well, in one sense, you have just witnessed the universe's first BattleMech calisthenic drill. In another, you have seen I have done my job. You can go into battle with some confidence in the Falcon Guards. They are still a bunch of aging or eccentric warriors, but they are now a unit. Sir."
"I have seen your work over the last two weeks, Star Commander. I have known for some time that your mission was a success. And in good time, it seems. Our orders are to proceed to Tukayyid in two days. I appreciate what you have done, Joanna."

Joanna did not acknowledge either the credit or the familiar use of her name. As usual, Aidan could not be sure what she was thinking. She probably hated him as much as ever.

"At the beginning of this," he said, "you did not think much of my plan. What do you say now?"
"The plan was chancy, but it worked."
"Thanks to you, Star Commander."
"That is also true."

(Falcon Guard, pgs. 117-118)

[Homeskilit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

missing the point. Dice or not, things like changing direction while running, jumping, running on pavement were all intentionally made high difficulty maneuvers.

It was made difficult for dice game reasons (those dice rolls for turning make the game exciting because you might fall!).

A 20 to 100s of tons mech would crush the pavement under its feet. The crushed pavement and dirt would compact and give it all the traction is needs to run or plant its feet and turn. Think what happens when a human walks in sand. Your foot displaces the top layers of sand but you do not have a trouble walking or running in it. It is more difficult then solid ground because of the resistance your buried foot encounters but a battlemech would not find this a problem.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Even as a "board game with dice" they could have been made as easy to make rolls, and yet they weren't...indicating a distinct lack of "nimbleness" on the part of the average mech.

Or the inability of the pilot to use the mech to the peak of its capabilities.

Edited by Homeskilit, 04 December 2015 - 06:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

It was made difficult for dice game reasons (those dice rolls for turning make the game exciting because you might fall!).

A 20 to 100s of tons mech would crush the pavement under its feet. The crushed pavement and dirt would compact and give it all the traction is needs to run or plant its feet and turn. Think what happens when a human walks in sand. Your foot displaces the top layers of sand but you do not have a trouble walking or running in it. It is more difficult then solid ground because of the resistance your buried foot encounters but a battlemech would not find this a problem.


Or the inability of the pilot to use the mech to the peak of its capabilities.

you really are in fantasyland about how physics work.

Pretty sure there is a Gundam video game out there somewhere for you....

[Homeskilit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

you really are in fantasyland about how physics work.

Pretty sure there is a Gundam video game out there somewhere for you....

You say that but provide no physics to back up your statement.

[Madcap72]

Sandpit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

No it doesn't, it fills out fluff. The fact that you keep trying to make it into anything more significant than that is a bit silly. I've read all kinds of books regarding Star Wars. I've yet to be able to play a Star Wars game that gives me the "freedom" with the force that they had in the fiction.

Fluff is not relevant for rule discussion.

Why is it silly for me to advocate for a battle tech game to adhere to battletech cannon? Also your comparison to star wars is flawed, because it's a different universe with different implied physics. The BT physics are implied by the fluff, which you seem to discount. Also what you've implied, is that because one game can't simulate it's fiction, that this game shouldn't simulate it's fiction?

Why would you want to remove cannon BT concepts from a BT game? That makes no sense.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

you really are in fantasyland about how physics work.

Pretty sure there is a Gundam video game out there somewhere for you....

I think he agrees with you, unfortunately he thinks it should be MWO lol

[Sandpit]

Madcap72, on 04 December 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

Why is it silly for me to advocate for a battle tech game to adhere to battletech cannon? Also your comparison to star wars is flawed, because it's a different universe with different implied physics. The BT physics are implied by the fluff, which you seem to discount. Also what you've implied, is that because one game can't simulate it's fiction, that this game shouldn't simulate it's fiction?

Why would you want to remove cannon BT concepts from a BT game? That makes no sense.

ok...
let me repeat this
again
fiction
fluff
not game play and rules

see the difference?

No, my analogy isn't flawed. You simply don't like it because it shows the fallacy of your arguments. "It's not the same game though" The game doesn't matter. The thought process behind it is what we're discussing. That's why it's called an analogy.

Your entire premise on that was "they have different physics"
...
seriously?

Your ideas aren't "supported", they're fluff, that's all they are, they've never been done in ANY iteration of ANY Btech, MW, MC, even Mech Assault which is abotu as arcade as you can get and still be Btech oriented.

Nothing
Ever
Anywhere
In ANY iteration
In the entire history of the game (that's over 20 years FYI)
Computer
Board
Console
or otherwise

The only "support" you actually have are those that agree with you and that's a VERY small (thankfully) minority.

[Homeskilit]

Sandpit, on 04 December 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

The only "support" you actually have are those that agree with you and that's a VERY small (thankfully) minority.

Actually you are the minority here...

[Sandpit]

Strum Wealh, on 04 December 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

As an additional point of consideration, there are the further examples of the Noisiel Summer Games (described in the 2005 sourcebook, Mercenaries Supplemental II) and the "BattleMech Calisthenics Drill" (described in the 1991 novel, Falcon Guard).

fluff
As I stated earlier, you can have all that mobility you want. You just have to do it while standing perfectly still, not firing any weapons, and focusing your entire attention on nothing but holding your mech in a "cool" pose.

I'm still waiting for anyone to show me ANYwhere the rules regarding these piloting feats in Btech. Anywhere. (Hint and Protip: You can't because they aren't there because mechs don't behave like that in the game, any game revolving around Btech)

[Brollocks]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

It is the basis for it, not the the written law on it. Also it was created as a dice game so it needed dice rules that worked for it.



You have no idea what at Atlas structure is made of or how much force it can withstand before crumbling.

Neither do you, yet you insist these machines are capable of far more agility than they have. Everyone is pulling their opinions out of a Battlemaster's rear end here, because no one knows. All we have to go by is what is in the TT rules and judge from that.

It's all about preference. Some want almost instant stop, start and reverse as though the mech was standing on a hover board. Others are liking what they perceive to be a little more realistic for a battlemech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Muddy Funster, on 04 December 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Neither do you, yet you insist these machines are capable of far more agility than they have. Everyone is pulling their opinions out of a Battlemaster's rear end here, because no one knows. All we have to go by is what is in the TT rules and judge from that.

It's all about preference. Some want almost instant stop, start and reverse as though the mech was standing on a hover board. Others are liking what they perceive to be a little more realistic for a battlemech.

Actually, I am waiting to hear how he overcomes momentum, inertia, shear force and pendulum forces, amongst other things hs has consistently ignored. I admit, I haven't taken the time (nor have the inclination) to do the maths. The point being he focuses on material strength and energy output (both which he laughably assumes as infinite... despite the reactors have definite power limitations demonstrated, and the fact that the damage Mechs take show they can't be as strong AND flexible as he would like to pretend...or they would hardly be able to be damage in combat). And ignores the important part on how they are actually applied. Muscle flexing is not sufficient at 150 kph to plant and juke. that would require high power maneuver thrusters, and even then, would pulverize the human inside from the inertial shifts.

Someone with more time and interest than me go figure what the amount of energy generated by a 30 ton mass moving at 41 meters per second is, then figure out how many Gs would be generated by essentially instantaneously redirecting it.

Fact is, 20-100 tons of inherently unstable (aka far taller than wide at the base) mech moving at 50-150+ kph simply doesn't overcome it's own inertia to stop, plant and such on a dime, nor is it physically possible for a giant size humanoid analogue to move with the same speed and reaction as a human. All accepted facts of robot engineering.

Perhaps if he spent less time reading manga, and more time reading engineering blogs from MIT, Stanford, etc?

His answer after making his comments is to lean on Handwavium and Unobtainium, and all kinds of other science fantasy.

And that's well and good. And if he actually simply admitted he wanted his Getter Robo Anime Macross supermech because "rule of cool", well, then we could simply agree to disagree. But thus far, that level of understanding (or honesty?) escapes the OP.

As is, it's again, pretty simple. The Devs agree that Mechs were too agile. So basicly, you can adapt, or you can suck it.

*shrugs*

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 December 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

Actually, I am waiting to hear how he overcomes momentum, inertia, shear force and pendulum forces, amongst other things hs has consistently ignored. I admit, I haven't taken the time (nor have the inclination) to do the maths. The point being he focuses on material strength and energy output (both which he laughably assumes as infinite... despite the reactors have definite power limitations demonstrated, and the fact that the damage Mechs take show they can't be as strong AND flexible as he would like to pretend...or they would hardly be able to be damage in combat).

Fact is, 20-100 tons of inherently unstable (aka far taller than wide at the base) mech moving at 50-150+ kph simply doesn't overcome it's own inertia to stop, plant and such on a dime, nor is it physically possible for a giant size humanoid analogue to move with the same speed and reaction as a human. All accepted facts of robot engineering.

Perhaps if he spent less time reading manga, and more time reading engineering blogs from MIT, Stanford, etc?

His answer after making his comments is to lean on Handwavium and Unobtainium, and all kinds of other science fantasy.

And that's well and good. And if he actually simply admitted he wanted his Getter Robo Anime Macross supermech because "rule of cool", well, then we could simply agree to disagree. But thus far, that level of understanding (or honesty?) escapes the OP.

As is, it's again, pretty simple. The Devs agree that Mechs were too agile. So basicly, you can adapt, or you can suck it.

*shrugs*

[Homeskilit]

Muddy Funster, on 04 December 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Neither do you, yet you insist these machines are capable of far more agility than they have. Everyone is pulling their opinions out of a Battlemaster's rear end here, because no one knows. All we have to go by is what is in the TT rules and judge from that.

It's all about preference. Some want almost instant stop, start and reverse as though the mech was standing on a hover board. Others are liking what they perceive to be a little more realistic for a battlemech.

Outside of the books I make my assumptions on two things

1) Battlemechs are powered by fusion reactors. There is no possible way a Battlemech draws more power from the reactor than it is capable of producing.

2) Battlemechs move because of myomers, artificial muscles, which give it the movement profile of human.

Edited by Homeskilit, 04 December 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[Anjian]

This is about "real" mechs, not Battletech mechs.

Real mechs should not be torso twisting, and there is no real life mechanic to explain how damage spreading ensures survivability

Instead, real mechs should have deflection-ricochet mechanics, which means body designs with sharply curved, sloped and angled surfaces designed to deflect various ballistics and missiles. During combat, a mech would turn or angle its body towards its enemy to increase deflection as much as possible, the way tanks "diamond" their corners towards their opponents. Mechs would have to stand and shoot in a way to minimize frontal profile.

Strangely there is a good real life reason to keep large weapon hardpoints low on a mech's body, or carried in a way, low under the arms. This is to lower the center of gravity and improve the mech stability in the face of recoil. Shooting from the top can make the mech fall over, unless it stands on a shooter's position to absorb recoil.

If mechs are to use their arms as shields, then those arms should have spaced shields attached to them, and the mech should raise its arms and orient its shield not straight, but in an angled way towards the opponent to optimize deflection.

Just my thoughts. Nothing in fiction actually embodies what I think should be realistic mechs designs.