198 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Outside of the books I make my assumptions on two things

1) Battlemechs are powered by fusion reactors. There is no possible way a Battlemech draws more power from the reactor than it is capable of producing.

2) Battlemechs move because of myomers, artificial muscles, which give it the movement profile of human.

1) which is faulty, because the weapon systems, are Railguns, High Discharge Lasers and Particle Projection Cannons. Even in Battletech established lore, the Gauss rifle draws so much power short term, that a mech cannot fire them in sync, but has to fire them sequentially (as demonstrated in Blood of Kerensky)

2) Bio mechanics do not allow you to overcome physical reality. What an light and elastic human body can do at a 2 meter, 100 kilo scale does not translate linearly to a 20 meter, 100 metric ton, non elastic frame, dealing with much greater forces of inertia, leverage, pendulum forces, etc. A human punches at approximately 25 miles per hour. For an Atlas to complete a punch in the same span of time (ala Gundam style/"human reflexes") would require a punch speed near 220 miles per hour.

Even for Space Magic, both premises are based on flawed reasoning. Even by space magic standards.

[Homeskilit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

The point being he focuses on material strength and energy output (both which he laughably assumes as infinite... despite the reactors have definite power limitations demonstrated, and the fact that the damage Mechs take show they can't be as strong AND flexible as he would like to pretend...or they would hardly be able to be damage in combat). And ignores the important part on how they are actually applied. Muscle flexing is not sufficient at 150 kph to plant and juke. that would require high power maneuver thrusters, and even then, would pulverize the human inside from the inertial shifts.

I never said material strength was infinite. I claimed that because we do not have evidence of mechs tearing themselves apart while moving and we have Triple Strength Myomers that also do not tear mechs apart that their internal structure is much stronger than you believe. If the structures are as weak as you claim then when a mech is hit by a high velocity ballistic round it would shatter its structure as the force of the weapon is transferred through the armor and into its internals.

I did claim that power would be near infinite for a battlemech. While we do not know the power requirements of a Battlemech I find it very hard to believe a single battlemech can draw more power than a sun can produce.

What evidence is there that a mech cannot plant its foot at 150 kph and juke? Provided the structure can withstand the forces acting upon it there is no reason it cannot. A mechs myomers being designed like a humans would allow for this, a human can juke at a high speed, therefore a mech would be able to also.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

Someone with more time and interest

Yup, you have no time on your hands and no interest in this thread yet you have posted in it how many times now?

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

Fact is, 20-100 tons of inherently unstable (aka far taller than wide at the base) mech moving at 50-150+ kph simply doesn't overcome it's own inertia to stop, plant and such on a dime, nor is it physically possible for a giant size humanoid analogue to move with the same speed and reaction as a human. All accepted facts of robot engineering.

I believe you call this Handwavium and Unobatinium.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

Perhaps if he spent less time reading manga, and more time reading engineering blogs from MIT, Stanford, etc?

His answer after making his comments is to lean on Handwavium and Unobtainium, and all kinds of other science fantasy.

Passive aggressive seems to be your thing. None of these comments add anything to the discussion.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

And that's well and good. And if he actually simply admitted he wanted his Getter Robo Anime Macross supermech because "rule of cool", well, then we could simply agree to disagree. But thus far, that level of understanding (or honesty?) escapes the OP.

As is, it's again, pretty simple. The Devs agree that Mechs were too agile. So basicly, you can adapt, or you can suck it.

More passive aggression. Also you took everything I said and took it to the extreme. I claimed mechs are agile and are not lumbering and cumbersome and you took that to mean I want super flying anime gundum stuff, I already explained this is not what I was saying, everyone else got it, you did not for some reason.

Edited by Homeskilit, 04 December 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

1) which is faulty, because the weapon systems, are Railguns, High Discharge Lasers and Particle Projection Cannons. Even in Battletech established lore, the Gauss rifle draws so much power short term, that a mech cannot fire them in sync, but has to fire them sequentially (as demonstrated in Blood of Kerensky)

2) Bio mechanics do not allow you to overcome physical reality. What an light and elastic human body can do at a 2 meter, 100 kilo scale does not translate linearly to a 20 meter, 100 metric ton, non elastic frame, dealing with much greater forces of inertia, leverage, pendulum forces, etc. A human punches at approximately 25 miles per hour. For an Atlas to complete a punch in the same span of time (ala Gundam style/"human reflexes") would require a punch speed near 220 miles per hour.

Even for Space Magic, both premises are based on flawed reasoning. Even by space magic standards.

lol it's like 5 people who support this thankfully so I don't think we're in any danger of PGI picking up bad ideas like this.

[Lyoto Machida]

Sandpit, on 04 December 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

fluff
As I stated earlier, you can have all that mobility you want. You just have to do it while standing perfectly still, not firing any weapons, and focusing your entire attention on nothing but holding your mech in a "cool" pose.

I'm still waiting for anyone to show me ANYwhere the rules regarding these piloting feats in Btech. Anywhere. (Hint and Protip: You can't because they aren't there because mechs don't behave like that in the game, any game revolving around Btech)

Since we're on the whole football theme here in this thread...has JJ Watt done anything like this in a live game?

If no, why not? You'd think this would be pretty handy to use as a DE to get to the QB.





BJ Penn, while not at the level of athleticism of JJ Watt, did jump out of a pool...pretty impressive for a chubby Hawaiian:



And since we're discussing Hawaiian athletes...may as well post this. 50lb rocks are probably easy to get out there but how did they arrange for the manta to cruise by?

[Void Angel]

Oh good grief, not this again. Don't you people ever get bored? Do you all go to the same coffee shops, or is it just the same people reposting the same topics every so often in case people forgot about all the debunked arguments from the last time? I realize the CW queues can feel long to some people, but come on.

Lyoto Machida, on 04 December 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

Since we're on the whole football theme here in this thread...has JJ Watt done anything like this in a live game?

If no, why not? You'd think this would be pretty handy to use as a DE to get to the QB.

Well, because most people don't like trying to live with a broken spine. With all the impact and big people trying to push and shove each other, leaving the ground to jump over someone is a great recipe for a lifelong liquid diet.

[Bishop Steiner]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

More passive aggression. Also you took everything I said and took it to the extreme. I claimed mechs are agile and are not lumbering and cumbersome and you took that to mean I want super flying anime gundum stuff, I already explained this is not what I was saying, everyone else got it, you did not for some reason.

Passive aggressive? Why? Because I pointed out PGI disagrees with you? Gosh, if that's aggression I hope you wear a bubble every time you have to go out in the real world.

[Homeskilit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Passive aggressive? Why? Because I pointed out PGI disagrees with you? Gosh, if that's aggression I hope you wear a bubble every time you have to go out in the real world.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

And that's well and good. And if he actually simply admitted he wanted his Getter Robo Anime Macross supermech because "rule of cool", well, then we could simply agree to disagree. But thus far, that level of understanding (or honesty?) escapes the OP.

As is, it's again, pretty simple. The Devs agree that Mechs were too agile. So basically, you can adapt, or you can suck it.

No, your assumption I wanted a super anime gundum robot out of a Battlemech (this is also pretty derogatory towards that genre).

"rule of cool" what does that even mean?

That what you are trying to say is beyond my understanding.

That I need to adapt what ever changes the devs make (I did not notice the changes at all in my light mechs, in fact its even easier to run circles around heavies and assaults now).

That I can suck it?

Really?

Edited by Homeskilit, 04 December 2015 - 10:27 PM.

[Signal27]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

"rule of cool" what does that even mean?

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/RuleOfCool

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Homeskilit, on 03 December 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

There is nothing keeping a Battlemech from performing like a human would other than people's perception of what a Battlemech is.

Battletech is fiction fyi.

This game world isn't bound to the same physical limits as that football player, because it's 100% imagined out of somebodys head and only relates to the real world in referential terms.

It simply doesn't matter how fast a football player can accelerate- that is literally meaningless as far as battlemechs are concerned.

Battlemechs are slow and cumbersome because they've said so. That is the final word, and if you want to re-imagine them with mecha agility, you're talking about something that is no longer Battletech.

Edited by vnlk65n, 04 December 2015 - 10:46 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Void Angel, on 04 December 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

Oh good grief, not this again. Don't you people ever get bored? Do you all go to the same coffee shops, or is it just the same people reposting the same topics every so often in case people forgot about all the debunked arguments from the last time? I realize the CW queues can feel long to some people, but come on.


Well, because most people don't like trying to live with a broken spine. With all the impact and big people trying to push and shove each other, leaving the ground to jump over someone is a great recipe for a lifelong liquid diet.

Ahh...so you're saying it's impractical and difficult in a live fire situation. Sorta like doing handstands in an Atlas in a combat situation...

[Sandpit]

Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

what you are trying to say is beyond my understanding.

sorry, couldn't resist

Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Passive aggressive? Why? Because I pointed out PGI disagrees with you? Gosh, if that's aggression I hope you wear a bubble every time you have to go out in the real world.

Dude, you already know where this goes lol We both know this isn't going to happen. If they even hinted at it, the aforementioned "minority" would make the "transwhatever" meltdown look like kindergarten slap fight in comparison lol

I wouldn't even wade too deep into THAT sh*t storm. lol I would sit back and chuckle a bit though because it would make it about as far as this thread lol

[Strum Wealh]

Sandpit, on 04 December 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

fluff
As I stated earlier, you can have all that mobility you want. You just have to do it while standing perfectly still, not firing any weapons, and focusing your entire attention on nothing but holding your mech in a "cool" pose.

I'm still waiting for anyone to show me ANYwhere the rules regarding these piloting feats in Btech. Anywhere. (Hint and Protip: You can't because they aren't there because mechs don't behave like that in the game, any game revolving around Btech)

Expanded movement modes, pages 18-23 of Tactical Operations.

• "To use sprinting movement, a ’Mech must have two working hip actuators. A ’Mech’s Sprinting MP is twice its current Walking/Cruising MP."
  
• "A unit’s Evading MP equals its Running/Flanking MP, and any attack against an Evading unit suffers a +1 to-hit modifier, in addition to its normal movement modifier and any other applicable modifiers."; "To use Evading movement, a ’Mech must have two working hip actuators. Also, a prone ’Mech receives no benefit from Evading movement, even if it started the Movement Phase using Evading movement."
  
• "A shielding unit uses movement to put itself in harm’s way to protect another target (another unit, a building, a hex and so on) from attacks."
  
• "A ’Mech enacting the Physical Defense movement mode leaves itself wide open to weapon attacks in the hopes of catching the unwary opponent in a trap that it springs in order to bring a physical attack to bear."
  
• "A ’Mech must have two hands, two lower arm, two upper arm and two shoulder actuators functioning to attempt crawling."; "A ’Mech that begins a Movement Phase prone can select the Crawling movement mode."
  
• "A bipedal (two-legged) ’Mech can go hull down... by 'taking a knee'; that is, it has one knee down on the ground, the other leg bracing for support."
  
• "The Climbing rules enable a ’Mech to enter a hex that is 3 or more levels higher or lower than the hex it occupies. To attempt a climb, a ’Mech must have at least one arm with all four actuators (hand, lower arm, upper arm and shoulder) functional, and that arm’s hand must be free (not holding a physical attack weapon such as a sword, hatchet and so on, a hand-held weapon or other object)."
  
• "The Leaping rules enable ’Mechs to leap down more than 2 levels, at considerable risk of leg damage and falling."
  
• "The 'dangle-and-drop' maneuver is a safer but slower way of dropping down multiple levels. To use the dangle-and-drop procedure, a ’Mech must have two undamaged hand actuators."

Nothing so grandiose as performing cartwheels and MMPR-style backflips or the handstands mentioned in TechManual, but there are TT gameplay rules that allow 'Mechs to sprint without MASC or TSM or a Supercharger (though, those things can be used in conjunction with "normal" sprinting to move even faster), assume a kneeling shooting position in order to go "hull-down", assume a prone shooting position (covered on page 113 of Total Warfare), is able to emulate the "leopard crawl" of an infantryman (see also, here), climb up & down sheer surfaces, leap off of ledges, and can hang-and-drop (which also implies at least the potential for pull-ups and shimmying across a ledge or rope).

We also know that a 'Mech can lift an object up to 5 percent of its tonnage (increased to 10 percent for operating Triple Strength Myomer) with one hand (TacOps, pg. 92), and can throw objects up to 2.5 percent of its mass (doubled for operating TSM) up to 180 meters (6 hexes) with one hand (also described on page 92 of TacOps).
The same capabilities that would allow an Atlas to throw a Dodge Caravan (curb weight 1,953 kg, or 1.95 tons) at another 'Mech (see "Throwing at Another Unit", pg. 95 of TacOps) would just as easily allow it to throw a 'Mech-scale baseball/softball/football at another 'Mech, and the same capabilities that allow a 'Mech to swing a hatchet (or other melee weapon) with any accuracy would be applicable to a 'Mech-scale tennis racket, or a 'Mech-scale baseball or cricket bat.
The same capabilities that allow a 'Mech's hands to pick up & manipulate a person or object would also allow it to move 'Mech-scale chess pieces on a 'Mech-scale chess board.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 December 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[Sandpit]

Strum Wealh, on 05 December 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Expanded movement modes, pages 18-23 of Tactical Operations.

• "To use sprinting movement, a ’Mech must have two working hip actuators. A ’Mech’s Sprinting MP is twice its current Walking/Cruising MP."
  
• "A unit’s Evading MP equals its Running/Flanking MP, and any attack against an Evading unit suffers a +1 to-hit modifier, in addition to its normal movement modifier and any other applicable modifiers."; "To use Evading movement, a ’Mech must have two working hip actuators. Also, a prone ’Mech receives no benefit from Evading movement, even if it started the Movement Phase using Evading movement."
  
• "A shielding unit uses movement to put itself in harm’s way to protect another target (another unit, a building, a hex and so on) from attacks."
  
• "A ’Mech enacting the Physical Defense movement mode leaves itself wide open to weapon attacks in the hopes of catching the unwary opponent in a trap that it springs in order to bring a physical attack to bear."
  
• "A ’Mech must have two hands, two lower arm, two upper arm and two shoulder actuators functioning to attempt crawling."; "A ’Mech that begins a Movement Phase prone can select the Crawling movement mode."
  
• "A bipedal (two-legged) ’Mech can go hull down... by 'taking a knee'; that is, it has one knee down on the ground, the other leg bracing for support."
  
• "The Climbing rules enable a ’Mech to enter a hex that is 3 or more levels higher or lower than the hex it occupies. To attempt a climb, a ’Mech must have at least one arm with all four actuators (hand, lower arm, upper arm and shoulder) functional, and that arm’s hand must be free (not holding a physical attack weapon such as a sword, hatchet and so on, a hand-held weapon or other object)."
  
• "The Leaping rules enable ’Mechs to leap down more than 2 levels, at considerable risk of leg damage and falling."
  
• "The 'dangle-and-drop' maneuver is a safer but slower way of dropping down multiple levels. To use the dangle-and-drop procedure, a ’Mech must have two undamaged hand actuators."

Nothing so grandiose as performing cartwheels and MMPR-style backflips or the handstands mentioned in TechManual, but there are TT gameplay rules that allow 'Mechs to sprint without MASC or TSM or a Supercharger (though, those things can be used in conjunction with "normal" sprinting to move even faster), assume a kneeling shooting position in order to go "hull-down", assume a prone shooting position (covered on page 113 of Total Warfare), is able to emulate the "leopard crawl" of an infantryman (see also, here), climb up & down sheer surfaces, leap off of ledges, and can hang-and-drop (which also implies at least the potential for pull-ups and shimmying across a ledge or rope).


We also know that a 'Mech can lift an object up to 5 percent of its tonnage (increased to 10 percent for operating Triple Strength Myomer) with one hand (TacOps, pg. 92), and can throw objects up to 2.5 percent of its mass (doubled for operating TSM) up to 180 meters (6 hexes) with one hand (also described on page 92 of TacOps).
The same capabilities that would allow an Atlas to throw a Dodge Caravan (curb weight 1,953 kg, or 1.95 tons) at another 'Mech (see "Throwing at Another Unit", pg. 95 of TacOps) would just as easily allow it to throw a 'Mech-scale baseball/softball/football at another 'Mech, and the same capabilities that allow a 'Mech to swing a hatchet (or other melee weapon) with any accuracy would be applicable to a 'Mech-scale tennis racket, or a 'Mech-scale baseball or cricket bat.
The same capabilities that allow a 'Mech's hands to pick up & manipulate a person or object would also allow it to move 'Mech-scale chess pieces on a 'Mech-scale chess board.

first and foremost
look at those penalties
exactly what everyone here has been telling the "nimble" crowd, they aren't designed to do that. If you try to do ityou are more than likely going to seriously damage your mech.
Do you not see that you completely and utterly helped prove that point with this citation???

If you got that from the citation, then you honestly truly are hearing what you want to hear. Plain and simple.

Let me reiterate here:
[color=#CCCCCC]To use the dangle-and-drop procedure, a ’Mech must have two undamaged hand actuators."[/color]
[color=#CCCCCC]leap down more than 2 levels, at considerable risk of leg damage and falling."[/color]
[color=#CCCCCC]To attempt a climb, a ’Mech must have at least one arm with all four actuators (hand, lower arm, upper arm and shoulder) functional, and that arm’s hand must be free (not holding a physical attack weapon such as a sword, hatchet and so on, a hand-held weapon or other object)."[/color]
[color=#CCCCCC]A ’Mech enacting the Physical Defense movement mode leaves itself wide open to weapon attacks[/color]
[color=#CCCCCC]"A ’Mech must have two hands, two lower arm, two upper arm and two shoulder actuators functioning to attempt crawling[/color]

I went ahead and bolded and highlighted and underlined some of the most important areas.

What you fail to acknowledge is that all of this stuff you're trying to pass off are the equivalent of a 3025 L1 tech alpha strike. It's an "oh sh*t" button you can hit to hopefully save your life while ending the enemy's. Not doing powerslides around corners, stopping on a dime, doing somersaults, and other obscenely ridiculous feats of agility.

You also fail to notice that the maneuvers mentioned there also either cause a great deal of destruction based on a PSR roll that would also add HEAVY modifiers, we're talking +3, 4, 5 for a 2d6 roll, which creates a VERY large improbability that a pilot would even be able to perform it, but ALSO stacks with all the other PSRs accumulated during that round.

Needing to roll a 10+ to "take a knee" is the equivalent of "i'm going to just poke around the corner and take a look. Don't worry I'm fast enough to get out of trouble if they see m....."
"Frank? Frank what happened? Did you get killed already?"

Except in the above example you gave in defense of these ideas you have even less chance to successfully pull off the feat.
Let's say you get a measley +3 to your PSR for any feat above you mentioned.

Ok, let's say you have a skilled veteran pilot with a piloting of 3.
3+3 = 6 Not hard to do so I guess you were right.... but wait! There's more!

Since many of the maneuvers you mentioned above require you to stand near perfectly still and/or expose yourself to enemy fire for 1 round, you're almost guaranteed to take 20+ damage which incurs ANOTHER +2 penalty =8

That PSR is looking a little more difficult now isn't it? We're not done yet though...
You still have to take into account that if you take ANY damage to ANY leg actuator you'll get another penalty
so a veteran skilled pilot would be looking at a bare minimum roll of 8 under optimal conditions and not taking more than 20 points of damage that round.
Oh and you can't shoot back that round either
Oh and you have to repeat that process to stand back up
Oh and if you fail that PSR, at the VERY least you have rendered your mech completely combat ineffective for a minimum of 2 rounds. That's provided you didn't take any crits or TACs (see, this was another rule in TT, you could actually roll a 12 and get a "Through Armor Critical", yea you read that right THROUGH armor) which are actually not all that uncommon.

[fat4eyes]

ZenIdiot, on 04 December 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

if you wanna compare this game to reality, you should be reminded that an Atlas, in RL, would crumple under it's own weight. so just enjoy the sci-fi robot shooter...

It's more likely it will sink into the ground. Future alloys may have infinite strength, but the ground sure doesn't.

[Koniving]

Sandpit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

It amazes me how people take thigns so out of context just to try and prove their point.

You left out the part regarding "under carefully controlled conditions"

Getting a mech to do a handstand in a hangar under heavy supervision and requiring no other movements other than doing a handstand is not the same as "nimble"
smh

Ok, how about this. You can do all those things you want in your mech, however, you must stand perfectly still, not fire any weapons, redirect all concentration and mech energy and resources into pulling off a handstand
while in battle
being shot

You have taken it out of context. I may not have expressly pointed that out, but why would I need to? It is covered under the image I quoted and provided. Under no circumstances did I attempt to hide the fact that the machines are NOT intended to go around fighting on their hands. Simply that they COULD do a handstand (under controlled conditions, yay talent shows!). It is just like Big Dog could do a handstand, doesn't mean it is ideal for combat just that it is a possibility.

(Note: I couldn't find the video where they had Big Dog do a handstand, think it might have been one of Boston Dynamic's other four legged robot models, but point remains just because it can do a handstand doesn't mean you'd have it function entirely on its hands or in this case forelimbs.)

What we have are machines where certain models given highly skilled pilots (MaxTech has a whole line of rules associated with this) are expressly stated to be capable of some martial arts moves, attack combos, grapples and even throws (provided that the 'Mech does not try to physically lift the opposing 'Mech as even when 20 tons lighter this is detailed in novels to have negative consequences such as ripping muscles Ghost in the Shell style. [Warning, EXTREME mechanical gore!])

While you're definitely not going to see practical cart wheeling or handstand scorpion kicks, you can and will see exceptionally skilled pilots "Skipping" in the 'Mechs.

Quote

TRO 3025 (original)
MechWarrior Danielle Peterson
A member of Delmar's assault lance, Tagaki's Batallion of Chisholm's Raiders, Danielle does not look the part of a MechWarrior. Blond and beautiful she has what many call "the knack". Though joking and friendly outside of her 'Mech, when Danielle buttons up in her Awesome, she seems to become one with the machine, able to react as if it was her own skin. This has saved her on more than one occasion when surrounded by enemy 'Mechs. In one instance, she literally skipped aside with her Awesome the Pretty Baby, to avoid an incoming missile strike aimed at her. Danielle is famous throughout the Successor States for her skill in piloting the usually unmaneuverable Awesome.

TRO 3039
Leftenant Danielle Peterson:
As a member of the Chisholm’s Raiders, Peterson has a petite build and physical beauty that is atypical of MechWarriors and seemingly at odds with her Awesome’s appearance. She is highly regarded for her exceptional piloting ability, and the extraordinary agility and performance she displays in her BattleMech have been well documented. Seemingly uninhibited by the Awesome’s typical lack of maneuverability, Peterson’s incredible skills have made her and her Awesome (“Pretty Baby”) famous in all the Successor States. Several Solaris VII stables have offered her tremendous financial rewards were she to retire and join them, but so far she has publicly maintained that her allegiance to the Federated Suns, and she claims she does not intend to retire until they are done with her.

"Literally skipping" to evade incoming missiles, in a mech otherwise known for being rather immobile. What we need to think of is what the general, untrained 40 year old could hope to do. More nimble than we might expect hydraulic powered robots to be, but certainly not like highly flexible and athletic 22 year old trained soldiers.



These mechs are -- within the rules -- capable of the following:

• Standing,
  
• crouching and supine (implied by hull down),
  
• going prone,
  
• climbing buildings (provided buildings are strong to support them; learned that the hard way and had a building collapse underneath me because it wasn't strong enough even though it towered over me).
  
• They can dodge,
  
• 'cruise',
  
• 'run',
  
• 'sprint'. (All attacks automatically fail, Tech Manual states due to concentration. Other sources state due to the mech jostling around both up/down and left/right with each exaggerated stomp which also slings the pilot around, leaving any weapons fire to be 'at best' a form of 'cover fire', not that tabletop can accommodate meaningful effects from that.)
  
• With a special Design Quirk or if four legged they can walk sideways (strafe) without turning the legs.
  
• They can convert to catapillar tracks in place of legs (more common of IndustrialMechs than BattleMechs). (Max speed is "cruise")
  
• Punch(maximum of 3 within 10 seconds due to rules but this includes moving and shooting too), (AToW Melee Master skill required!)
  
• Kick (maximum of 2 but same inclusions of movement and shooting). (AToW Melee Master skill required!)
  
• Drop and recollect hand-mounted weaponry such as Autocannons, PPCs, Laser weapons, Rifles, Shields, Melee weapons. (Provided one hand actuator). (Hand-mounted autocannons are limited to be as large as UAC/5s, suggesting that a single arm probably could not safely wield more than 9 tons on its own).
  
• Pick up and stash human targets (provided one hand actuator) without killing them in the process. (Titanfall anyone?)
  
• Pick up severed limbs (their own and enemies, provided they have a functioning hand actuator)
  
• Grab trees to use as weapons (provided they have two hand actuators since they are NOT much bigger than most trees).
  
• Use cover 12 meters tall to completely obscure them from enemy sight without having to kneel.
  
• Use forestry to absorb large amounts of potential damage.
  
• Die by collision into tree when armor is gone. (Most humiliating death ever, tree caused crit damage to engine; my third crit to engine.)
  
• Attempt to stand (and fail or succeed) a total of 6 times (this varies depending on mech weight and engine, this was using a 50 ton mech with a big engine) within 10 seconds (1 turn)...and still fire with heavy accuracy penalties, and throw a punch (only to fall again, damn it!).

Quote

One of the more controversial battlefield weapons in the modern era— hailed as an innovation in the 3020s after three hundred years of stagnated military technology—the hatchet (sometimes referred to as an axe) is nothing more than a large hunk of deadweight built into a BattleMech’s arm as a permanent club. In the scavenger days of the late Succession Wars, it was common for MechWarriors, low on ammunition and out of weapons, to uproot trees or yank girders from the rubble of buildings and wield them as clubs. These improvised clubs invariably required two hands to wield, thanks to typical balance and weight issues, and usually shattered or splintered after one good hit.

From Here. Wording is very similar to the TechManual on Hatchets.

While I can't find anything expressly stating the damage of using a tree, it seems to vary around 3 damage (has been as low as 0 and as high as 5, but I'm using Glancing/Direct blow rules too) on Megamek while in Light Woods. Meaning that despite being a piece of wood that requires two hands to use, it can do about the same damage as a small laser on average. I should also mention it takes two turns to acquire and use said tree when not having to chase your opponent, meaning it tops out to about 20 seconds or within that time frame to uproot a tree, balance it, and beat your enemy with it until it breaks which is a maximum of two swings within a single turn using A Time of War's Melee Master skill trait. (Two kicks, two swings, or three punches in addition to firing weapons and moving in a 10 second period; moving creates difficulty penalties known as pilot checks).

These machines are at near minimum approximately two times the height of the average semi truck.

Quote

The average height of a semi-truck trailer is 13 feet 6 inches to 14 feet. There are no federal regulations on semi-truck heights, but there are roads that have lower clearances than the average height of a commercial motor vehicle.

13.6 feet is 4.14528 meters. Times 2 and rounded is 8.29 meters.

Nova is 8.3 meters. And it isn't the shortest 'Mech. The shortest BattleMech at a limit the usual tonnages (20 and up) is the FireFly at roughly 7.9 meters, and the shortest-shortest BattleMech that I'm aware of is a specific 15 ton variant of the Flea, which is 7.3 meters tall.

Range accuracies are expressly stated that they are listed as the effective ranges in which the average pilot with average gunnery skill is likely to hit a target "as mobile as a BattleMech."


Using a Dire Wolf, I pulled a Kool Aid Man meme right through a building "Oh yeah!" and was immediately kicked by a Battlemaster and leapt behind by a Shadowhawk who also managed to kick the same leg. All four actuators in the same leg were destroyed, crippling me to a prone position. I spent the next minute and a half vaulting my mech on one arm to fire the other (as you cannot use both arms, implying that one arm is used to support your 'upright prone' position to be able to aim and fire). For fun, each turn I would switch arms, like a man doing alternating pushups.

Akin to this minus the clap and swapping hands... and once per ten seconds.

Anyway you're taking a rather extreme version of the word Nimble which for me, is to take it out of the context that we're talking about mechs at minimum almost twice the height of a Semi truck and weighing as much as our IFVs, and tanks (yep up to and including the MAUS). I would hardly call the average person all that nimble, either. There are limitations. (Personally I can't do a handstand except under controlled conditions too, can you?)

(Edits. Forgot to reference AToW earlier on, as well as some other foot notes.)

Edited by Koniving, 07 December 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 05 December 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

You have taken it out of context. I may not have expressly pointed that out, but why would I need to? It is covered under the image I quoted and provided. Under no circumstances did I attempt to hide the fact that the machines are NOT intended to go around fighting on their hands. Simply that they COULD do a handstand (under controlled conditions, yay talent shows!). It is just like Big Dog could do a handstand, doesn't mean it is ideal for combat just that it is a possibility.

Anyway you're taking a rather extreme version of the word Nimble which for me,

The entire premise of the posts I've been responding to is exactly that though. That's exactly what's being asked for and movement towards that extreme. We finally have PGI moving away from that thought process thankfully and realize that their "thinking man's shooter" was quickly becoming all shooting and no thinking.

EDIT:
And honestly truly Kon, this list

Koniving, on 05 December 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

• Standing,
  
• crouching and supine (implied by hull down),
  
• going prone,
  
• climbing buildings (provided buildings are strong to support them; learned that the hard way and had a building collapse underneath me because it wasn't strong enough even though it towered over me).
  
• They can dodge,
  
• 'cruise',
  
• 'run',
  
• 'sprint'.
  
• With a special Design Quirk or if four legged they can walk sideways (strafe) without turning the legs.
  
• They can convert to catapillar tracks in place of legs (more common of IndustrialMechs than BattleMechs).
  
• Punch(maximum of 3 within 10 seconds due to rules but this includes moving and shooting too),
  
• Kick (maximum of 2 but same inclusions of movement and shooting).
  
• Drop and recollect hand-mounted weaponry such as Autocannons, PPCs, Laser weapons, Rifles, Shields, Melee weapons. (Provided one hand actuator). (Hand-mounted autocannons are limited to be as large as UAC/5s, suggesting that a single arm probably could not safely wield more than 9 tons on its own).
  
• Pick up and stash human targets (provided one hand actuator) without killing them in the process. (Titanfall anyone?)
  
• Pick up severed limbs (their own and enemies, provided they have a functioning hand actuator)
  
• Grab trees to use as weapons (provided they have two hand actuators since they are NOT much bigger than most trees).
  
• Use cover 12 meters tall to completely obscure them from enemy sight without having to kneel.
  
• Use forestry to absorb large amounts of potential damage.
  
• Die by collision into tree when armor is gone. (Most humiliating death ever, tree caused crit damage to engine; my third crit to engine.)
  
• Attempt to stand (and fail or succeed) a total of 6 times (this varies depending on mech weight and engine, this was using a 50 ton mech with a big engine) within 10 seconds (1 turn)...and still fire with heavy accuracy penalties, and throw a punch (only to fall again, damn it!).

Almost all of that is already represented in the game with the exception of physical combat (which if governed under these rules would be awesome!), but is not the premise of the posts I have been responding to.

Edited by Sandpit, 05 December 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Koniving]

ZenIdiot, on 04 December 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

if you wanna compare this game to reality, you should be reminded that an Atlas, in RL, would crumple under it's own weight. so just enjoy the sci-fi robot shooter...

https://en.wikipedia...anzer_VIII_Maus

Weight 188 tonnes (207 short tons; 185 long tons)


You were saying? Mind you the Atlas is between 13.2 and just under 14 meters tall, its feet are usually about 4 to 6 meters long depending on the art but displaced over a much wider area than the tracks of the Maus. And the Maus did just fine on most non-wet terrain.

(Also mind you, Battletech 'Mechs + wet conditions + dirt = mud...and those are horrific conditions to travel and engage in).

(MWO's Atlas is 17.6 meters tall.)

[Void Angel]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 December 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Ahh...so you're saying it's impractical and difficult in a live fire situation. Sorta like doing handstands in an Atlas in a combat situation...

Well, it might well be impractical, but what I was saying is that trying to jump over the defensive line in American football, in an attempt to reach the quarterback, would result in permanent injuries. You have to hit in certain ways, tackle in certain ways, etc - they don't do it because they're trained not to for their own safety.

[Zookeeper Dan]

Everyone seems to think that either Battlemechs should be as agile as ninjas or as lumbering as a tank.

Watch the heavily armored knights in Game of Thrones finght. That's probably pretty close to the maneuverability of a Battlemechs. Are they leaping and doing backflips? No. Can they duck and weave while running? Yes. A mech could do pretty much anything a person wearimg 50 - 100 pounds of field plate could do, which was a lot.

"The notion that the development of plate armor (completed by about 1420–30) greatly impaired a wearer's mobility is also untrue. A harness of plate armor was made up of individual elements for each limb. Each element in turn consisted of lames (strips of metal) and plates, linked by movable rivets and leather straps, and thus allowing practically all of the body's movements without any impairment due to rigidity of material. The widely held view that a man in armor could hardly move, and, once he had fallen to the ground, was unable to rise again, is also without foundation. On the contrary, historical sources tell us of the famous French knight Jean de Maingre (ca. 1366–1421), known as Maréchal Boucicault, who, in full armor, was able to climb up the underside of a ladder using only his hands. Furthermore, there are several illustrations from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance depicting men-at-arms, squires, or knights, all in full armor, mounting horses without help or instruments such as ladders or cranes. Modern experiments with genuine fifteenth- and sixteenth-century armor as well as with accurate copies have shown that even an untrained man in a properly fitted armor can mount and dismount a horse, sit or lie on the ground, get up again, run, and generally move his limbs freely and without discomfort."

When two knights in plate run around dodging and trying to aim and hit another knight that is dodging you miss most of the time. That's why weapons have such ridiculously short ranges.

This is also the reason the the feudal system is so prominent in the Battletech universe.

Edited by Danth Reduviid, 05 December 2015 - 05:26 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Sandpit, on 05 December 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

first and foremost
look at those penalties
exactly what everyone here has been telling the "nimble" crowd, they aren't designed to do that. If you try to do ityou are more than likely going to seriously damage your mech.

----------

What you fail to acknowledge is that all of this stuff you're trying to pass off are the equivalent of a 3025 L1 tech alpha strike. It's an "oh sh*t" button you can hit to hopefully save your life while ending the enemy's. Not doing powerslides around corners, stopping on a dime, doing somersaults, and other obscenely ridiculous feats of agility.

You also fail to notice that the maneuvers mentioned there also either cause a great deal of destruction based on a PSR roll that would also add HEAVY modifiers, we're talking +3, 4, 5 for a 2d6 roll, which creates a VERY large improbability that a pilot would even be able to perform it, but ALSO stacks with all the other PSRs accumulated during that round.

Needing to roll a 10+ to "take a knee" is the equivalent of "i'm going to just poke around the corner and take a look. Don't worry I'm fast enough to get out of trouble if they see m....."
"Frank? Frank what happened? Did you get killed already?"

Except in the above example you gave in defense of these ideas you have even less chance to successfully pull off the feat.

• "Going hull-down or leaving a hull-down position costs 2 MP. Attacks against a hull-down, four-legged 'Mech are resolved normally unless the 'Mech has partial cover. If partial cover exists between the attacker and the four-legged 'Mech, the attack receives a +2 modifier in addition to the standard partial-cover modifier; as usual, attacks that strike the legs will strike the terrain instead."
  
• "All the rules above apply to a bipedal 'Mech 'taking a knee' to go hull-down, except that to leave a hull-down position, in addition to the 2 MP expenditure, the bipedal 'Mech must make a standard Piloting Skill Roll. A failure does not result in a fall; instead, the 'Mech simply did not stand up and the MP are expended (the 'Mech can continue to attempt to stand up as long as it has MP available)."
  
• " A 'Mech can move from hull-down to a prone position without any MP expenditure. To move from a prone position to a hull-down position requires the expenditure of 1 MP (+1 additional MP for each missing and/or destroyed actuator), but does not require a Piloting Skill Roll. A 'Mech can move from a prone position, to a hull-down position, to a standing position (or vice versa) all in the same Movement Phase, provided the unit has available MP (and makes the appropriate standard Piloting Skill Rolls as necessary)."

All of this comes from page 21 of Tactical Operations.

Further, the Piloting/Driving Skill Roll Table (on page 60 of Total Warfare) states that the modifier for "'Mech attempted to stand" is zero.

So, no, there are no large modifiers to be made for simply taking a 'Mech from standing to hull-down/taking-a-knee - in fact, there are no modifiers or PSRs for doing so. Nor are there modifiers or PSRs for taking a 'Mech from hull-down to prone, or from prone to hull-down. And failing the "standard PSR" to take the 'Mech from hull-down to standing causes no damage to the 'Mech (that is, it does not, as you, Sandpit, assert, "cause a great deal of destruction based on a PSR roll").

There was no failure to acknowledge or notice the difficulties (or relative lack thereof) in these movements on my part.
And you, Sandpit, are arguing based on penalties and PSRs that are not there (e.g. "...Needing to roll a 10+ to "take a knee"...").