135 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

And no notes about CW IS tonnage dropping back down to 240 tons.. hmmm

[KursedVixen]

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Bro... look at my numbers as well. I just don't spend much time on the forums. In fact I've been here 2 months longer than you.

I'm not arguing anything you just brought up. I'm simply pointing out much of the same that you just stated with the only exception being: YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE THE MECH. That's something people clearly don't get in this game. A BATTLEMECH is a weapons system. The weapons you can swap out are a part of that system. Straight comparing this weapon to that weapon IS vs CLAN without including the entire weapons platform/system is erroneous at best. Now does it exactly 'balance' no but it's certainly a part of the balancing factor.

With the current quirks You cannot even begin to compare at all the quirks drive comparisons to ludicrous levels,it's impossible to compare any mech as a weapons system because the quirks will effect a weapon turning it into a completely different weapons system. So you can only compare the weapon components, which of themselves do not have quirks. That said you can't compare an IS small laser to a Clan ER small laser ,because ER lasers are not lasers they are ER lasers you can only compare clan Er smalls with IS er smalls which are not present in this game so you really can't compare lasers or auto cannons excel the ER Large and LBX and pulse lasers

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 December 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Bellum Dominum]

KursedVixen, on 04 December 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

With the current quirks You cannot even begin to compare at all the quirks drive comparisons to ludicrous levels,it's impossible to compare any mech as a weapons system because the quirks will effect a weapon turning it into a completely different weapons system. So you can only compare the weapon components, which of themselves do not have quirks. That said you can't compare an IS small laser to a Clan ER small laser ,because ER lasers are not lasers they are ER lasers you can only compare clan Er smalls with IS er smalls which are not present in this game so you really can't compare lasers or auto cannons excel the ER Large and LBX and pulse lasers

All true, but in this case we started out talking specifically about Gauss IS vs Clan. Glad you brought up quirks though. Hate them myself but they too have to be considered when talking about one side vs another side in regards to the weapon balancing. Which of course again means you have to consider the mech the weapons are loaded in as that is where the quirks come from.

[Appogee]

And I spent hours last week cutting and pasting all the quirks for use in my inventory program because you said you were going to use the values from PTS4.

Screw this, I'm not going to try to keep track of QuirkLotto any more.

Edited by Appogee, 04 December 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Vlad Grendal]

This hotfix also seems to have changed the drop deck maximum tonnage on IS from 250, to 240. This is not mentioned in the notes. but my current drop deck from yesterday and this morning before hot fix was clear for drop, and now is not.

would love an explanation on that one.

[Koniving]

Can't endorse... All CT quirks on most of these mechs are identical. For Clan Omnimechs, why not DISTINGUISH each one with a different set of quirks to add VALUE to having one model or another...since they can all be made into the same mech anyway?

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 04 December 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Can't endorse... All CT quirks on most of these mechs are identical. For Clan Omnimechs, why not DISTINGUISH each one with a different set of quirks to add VALUE to having one model or another...since they can all be made into the same mech anyway?

Yeah, I'm really disappointed they made the CT quirks all the same. Even less reason to keep the extra clan mechs Really reduces pack value, aside from needing those three CT's to get the XP you need... but while necessary, that's gamey and doesn't really lend awesomesauce.

[Wintersdark]

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Bro... look at my numbers as well. I just don't spend much time on the forums. In fact I've been here 2 months longer than you.

I'm not arguing anything you just brought up. I'm simply pointing out much of the same that you just stated with the only exception being: YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE THE MECH. That's something people clearly don't get in this game. A BATTLEMECH is a weapons system. The weapons you can swap out are a part of that system. Straight comparing this weapon to that weapon IS vs CLAN without including the entire weapons platform/system is erroneous at best. Now does it exactly 'balance' no but it's certainly a part of the balancing factor.

Sure. Compare the mechs. Clan mechs have auto-CASE, allowing ST Gauss to be used safer. Ability to run a XL engine (basically a requirement to use Gauss and any serious amount of other weapons) and not die on side torso loss? Clans. Clans lost some heat cap, but then if you're packing all those tons into Gauss, then that loss isn't really a disadvantage, and the increased dissipation is gravy.

Yeah, few Clan mechs can run dual-gauss, but still: in practice, Gauss works very well for Clans. Yet ours is still lighter and smaller, but otherwise identical.

[Bellum Dominum]

Wintersdark, on 04 December 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

Sure. Compare the mechs. Clan mechs have auto-CASE, allowing ST Gauss to be used safer. Ability to run a XL engine (basically a requirement to use Gauss and any serious amount of other weapons) and not die on side torso loss? Clans. Clans lost some heat cap, but then if you're packing all those tons into Gauss, then that loss isn't really a disadvantage, and the increased dissipation is gravy.

Yeah, few Clan mechs can run dual-gauss, but still: in practice, Gauss works very well for Clans. Yet ours is still lighter and smaller, but otherwise identical.

Winter you have been playing long enough now you should know... Gauss ammo doesn't need case. Period. Case only protects from ammo explosions not Gauss Weapon explosion. <well I should say as far as I know it doesn't protect from the weapon exploding. it shouldn't anyways>

So I had to look into that and all I can say is... WHY PGI? WHY?
Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment .... Not Cellular Ammo and Gauss Storage Equipment
sigh just sigh .... well there's a big example of why there is balance issues with this weapon

Edited by Death Drow, 04 December 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mister Blastman, on 04 December 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

BJ-1X has four amazing properties that outweigh quirks...

1. It is small
2. It is fast!
3. It has very high mounted hardpoints
4. It has abundant hardpoints of the same weapon type (8 energy)

All of these combined make it a superstar. And I love it. My Dragon, Victor and Trebuchet hate it; while Blacjacktrix hangs with the cool kids they're in the corner playing chess looking at girlie magazines.

No, dude, after the changes it's HORRIBLE now. [/sarcasm]

Edited by Ghost Badger, 04 December 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[shopsmart]

BUG REPORT:

Figured out a problem on how colors would appear, but not selectable.

Fresh mech, marauder. Goto camo spec selection, then select Owned then quickly select colors. Or it might be colors then quickly select colors.

I only have like 10 colors available. Last 2 in top row not selectable (not owned) and bottom row colors (about 5 and not owned) not selectable. If I select all then owned same thing.

[Berean03]

Ghost Badger, on 04 December 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

No, dude, after the changes it's HORRIBLE now. [/sarcasm]

How does one get only 8 damage in an Atlas? With a kill assist to boot? But yeah that Blackjack 1X....I guess I should buy one?

[KursedVixen]

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

Winter you have been playing long enough now you should know... Gauss ammo doesn't need case. Period. Case only protects from ammo explosions not Gauss Weapon explosion. <well I should say as far as I know it doesn't protect from the weapon exploding. it shouldn't anyways>

So I had to look into that and all I can say is... WHY PGI? WHY?
Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment .... Not Cellular Ammo and Gauss Storage Equipment
sigh just sigh .... well there's a big example of why there is balance issues with this weapon

Actually Case should protect from guass explosions,but then again Case Really doesn't protect anything from ammo explosions it just directs the explosion so that it stays inside one part of the mech Arm Side torso etc. So in theory yes it does protect from ammo explosions but truthfullly it doesn't fully protect you from ammo cookoff.

Stefka Kerensky, on 04 December 2015 - 02:49 AM, said:

But if it had it, you would fire gauss 5% faster!
I wish it had kinda 20% heat reduction on gauss too.

Are you nuts? both guass rifles do 1 heat any reduction would result in it doing less than 1.

The guass rifle has the best heat/damage ratio in the entirety of battltech 1 heat for 15 damage and you want a heat gen reduction for a guass? I got a better idea +20% no 50% heat gen Guass rifle for the Atlas.

Tarl Cabot, on 04 December 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

And no notes about CW IS tonnage dropping back down to 240 tons.. hmmm

Now that everything is "Balanced" IS doesn't need more tonnage to win vs Clan.

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 December 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Bellum Dominum]

KursedVixen, on 04 December 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Actually Case should protect from guass explosions,but then again Case Really doesn't protect anything from ammo explosions it just directs the explosion so that it stays inside one part of the mech Arm Side torso etc. So in theory yes it does protect from ammo explosions but truthfullly it doesn't fully protect you from ammo cookoff.

NO. Just NO. Case is NOT supposed to protect from Gauss Weapon Explosions. This is actually why when you look at mech loadouts in the books nearly all mechs that carried a guass carried them in the arms.

Edited by Death Drow, 04 December 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[Grothaus]

Ghost Badger, on 04 December 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

No, dude, after the changes it's HORRIBLE now. [/sarcasm]

notice only 3 clan mechs out of 24, a high number based on my exp after patch.....

[Navid A1]

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Gauss period is just silly strong in this game. Even with the slight increase to cooldown it's still one of the strongest weapons in the game. Honestly when they added the charge to fire mechanic my first thought was 'this is silly. why don't they just increase the cd of the weapon by a couple of seconds?'

Although I could take this time to say I wish they would implement the reduced damage for not being targeted. This would fix a lot of the complaining about Gauss as most of those shots that 'piss ppl off' are from outside of targeting range. It also would help to cut down on getting killed by the tons of friendly fire going on today since people don't check their shots for crap anymore. Also guess what it would make ECM all that much more precious as all those shots from the enemy you are taking while inside an ECM bubble would hurt less. Also would make TAG, UAV, and BAP that much more valuable as they would counter act that added benefit. PGI: Do reduce ECM range down even further (by another 1/2 at least) though when you do this. There is already (even with the 90 range) way too many mechs now that have ECM and so that mechanic would be a bit too punishing with ECM being so prevalent.

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

You can't compare the two weapons without remembering the mechs they go in. IS gets to change their engines, their armor type, etc. Clans still don't get that. So two mechs of the same tonnage IS VS CLAN the IS mech has the advantage of being able to tweak their mech more for more ammo. Yeah the two weapons are nearly the same short tonnageand slots but don't forget the mechs they are going in.

well, let me clarify some points about IS gauss builds:
- IS gauss rifle is a 15 ton (7slot) equipment you are carrying (goes up to 19 with ammo).
- You can't really build a mech with gauss without using XLs because weight. (besides KGC and grid iron).
- mechs with XL engines and a 15 ton bomb with 90% chance of explosion don't go well together (and case costs 0.5 tons)
- gauss in a torso with XL is suicide.
- Endo costs 14 crits
- FF costs 14 crits
- if you are looking to gain 3 tons out of engine customization, then the slow speed is your trade off... clans dont have this trade off

now lets see how the clans use their gauss:
- C-gauss is a 12 ton (6 slot) strong weapon (goes upto 15 with ammo)... 3 tons lighter than IS
- mechs like stormcrow, HBR, EBJ, SMN, TBR, WHK, GAR, DWF can use it to maximum potential (thats -nearly half of the clan armada)
-Clan XL with free case means that using gauss is not a death sentence while your armor is gone.
- locked endo costs 7 crits
- locked FF costs 7 crits
- clan mechs with gauss capability all have full upgrades for the crit cost of a single upgrade in an IS mech.
- Clan DHS costs 2 crits.. meaning you can equip them in legs to achieve better cooling in water, saving torso space for weapons


locked equipment is not the issue when you are talking about gauss. Besides the shadowcat, just show me one clan example where locked equipment prevents the usage of "GAUSS" (only gauss).



Also... a BIG resounding NO to reduced damage with locks. ECM mechs are nullifying enough weapon systems as it is. If i see a target at 300 m in front of me, i should be able to shove that gauss round dead center into it for full damage.
ECM needs to be reworked to operate as it was in lore.

Edited by Navid A1, 04 December 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[Volt Corsair]

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

NO. Just NO. Case is NOT supposed to protect from Gauss Weapon Explosions. This is actually why when you look at mech loadouts in the books nearly all mechs that carried a guass carried them in the arms.

Because an arm is totally not viable. I mean, it's not like it moves up, down, or side to side so you can aim with it far mor effectively.... Oh wait. In any CASE(I made a funny.), CASE is simply a form of protection against an internal explosion. Get over it and be thankfull you don't get nuked from a guass rifle's capacitors detonating.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 04 December 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

well, let me clarify some points about IS gauss builds:
- IS gauss rifle is a 15 ton (7slot) equipment you are carrying (goes up to 19 with ammo).
- You can't really build a mech with gauss without using XLs because weight. (besides KGC and grid iron).
- mechs with XL engines and a 15 ton bomb with 90% chance of explosion don't go well together (and case costs 0.5 tons)
- gauss in a torso with XL is suicide.
- Endo costs 14 crits
- FF costs 14 crits
- if you are looking to gain 3 tons out of engine customization, then the slow speed is your trade off... clans dont have this trade off

now lets see how the clans use their gauss:
- C-gauss is a 12 ton (6 slot) strong weapon (goes upto 15 with ammo)... 3 tons lighter than IS
- mechs like stormcrow, HBR, EBJ, SMN, TBR, WHK, GAR, DWF can use it to maximum potential (thats -nearly half of the clan armada)
-Clan XL with free case means that using gauss is not a death sentence while your armor is gone.
- locked endo costs 7 crits
- locked FF costs 7 crits
- clan mechs with gauss capability all have full upgrades for the crit cost of a single upgrade in an IS mech.
- Clan DHS costs 2 crits.. meaning you can equip them in legs to achieve better cooling in water


locked equipment is not the issue when you are talking about gauss. Besides the shadowcat, just show me one clan example where locked equipment prevents the usage of &quot;GAUSS&quot; (only gauss).



Also... a BIG resounding NO to reduced damage with locks. ECM mechs are nullifying enough weapon systems as it is. If i see a target at 300 m in front of me, i should be able to shove that gauss round dead center into it for full damage.
ECM needs to be reworked to operate as it was in lore.

Exactly.

While I accept that quirks are a thing, the weapon quirks have been fairly substantially toned down, so that muddies the waters a bit less.

Aside from that, yeah. Basically, all the clan vs. IS differences tend to make Gauss better for clans, not worse.

Now, one could argue that clans get to have a simply superior Gauss due to having markedly inferior autocannons, but that's just like the locked equipment argument: you just don't use autocannons, and certainly not alongside Gauss, so its a "disadvantage" that can be entirely bypassed while the advantage of a 3t/1s smaller Gauss is "money in the bank".

I'd much rather see IS Gauss explode less or something than have an assortment of unrelated needs elsewhere to " balance" it.

[Bellum Dominum]

Volt Opt Construct, on 04 December 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Because an arm is totally not viable. I mean, it's not like it moves up, down, or side to side so you can aim with it far mor effectively.... Oh wait. In any CASE(I made a funny.), CASE is simply a form of protection against an internal explosion. Get over it and be thankfull you don't get nuked from a guass rifle's capacitors detonating.

NO it's not. It literally stands for Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment. The gauss weapon exploding was part of the game balance for the weapon. I'm guessing you don't understand what that is but it exists real world and no it does not work for the weapon it's self nor could it. (CASE exists I mean)

As far as Gauss weapons 'moving around' as you stated again look at the books. I'm not one for table top this table top that but there are some things that were pretty basic in it such as balancing issues one would think carried over into this game. I've been around since the end of beta and hadn't until now realized, or I just forgot, that for some reason MWO gives Gauss weapons CASE protection. It is what it is I'm by far not concerned about it (see the fact I've not noticed or known or cared about it until now over 4 years later). Gauss weapons were carried in the arms because when they exploded that way they didn't take the whole mech with them. Shrug it is what it is just makes little to no sense is all. Trust me all these years we've seen all sorts of changes with gauss, some major, some minor, most of which would never have been needed had Gauss never been given that protection in the first place.

Edited by Death Drow, 04 December 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

Winter you have been playing long enough now you should know... Gauss ammo doesn't need case. Period. Case only protects from ammo explosions not Gauss Weapon explosion. &lt;well I should say as far as I know it doesn't protect from the weapon exploding. it shouldn't anyways&gt;

So I had to look into that and all I can say is... WHY PGI? WHY?
Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment .... Not Cellular Ammo and Gauss Storage Equipment
sigh just sigh .... well there's a big example of why there is balance issues with this weapon

Well, I won't argue whether it should or not, but ultimately the CASE issue doesn't really impact balance much: it works for IS too, and in a side torso with an IS XL its presence doesn't save you from death via side torso loss.

The Clan mechs, on the other hand, can scoff: even if they lose a ST Gauss and the ST to an explosion, they're still fighting.

Gauss is great for both factions, still one of the best weapons in the game, but its better for Clans than IS, even before the size and weight are considered.

Death Drow, on 04 December 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

NO it's not. It literally stands for Cellular Ammo Storage Equipment. The gauss weapon exploding was part of the game balance for the weapon. I'm guessing you don't understand what that is but it exists real world and no it does not work for the weapon it's self nor could it. (CASE exists I mean)

CASE doesn't prevent ammo explosions in MWO.

Even with CASE, the Gauss rifle still explodes, and still damages the mech.

Edit: For clarity, it still explodes, still damages the mech, but extra damage doesn't move inwards - this is important, because if a section housing a Gauss is destroyed before the gauss rifle is destroyed, the gauss rifle immediately tests to explode at 95%, and without CASE the 20 damage will be pushed inwards. I'm not sure if ammo explosion damage (re: game mechanic, so this includes Gauss Rifles) is reduced or not.

Regardless, having free CASE helps Clam mechs, and also allows Clams to benefit from CASE in arm mounted Gauss Rifles too, so exploding arm gauss doesn't have a chance to do ST damage.

But, with that said, CASE is probably the least relevant factor of all of this.

Edited by Wintersdark, 04 December 2015 - 08:07 PM.