150 replies to this topic

[TheSilken]

Well guys Envisage shot his mouth off and got called out on his beliefs that LRMs are viable in the high tiers and maybe comp scene and now he has to prove it. The format that he has accepted to using is a 12v12 match with his team carrying the LRMs (and also some direct fire) against my team decked out with all that the current meta has to offer. In addition to this he has requested that as many of the players participating as possible are top tier players in either the public queues or in competitive MWO gaming. Hopefully I can get someone to record/stream this beat down so that everyone can enjoy watching the mayhem. God this is such a stupid event lol xD

Team members are asked to meet at least an hour before the match to go over strats and builds.

This post will be updated as things fall into place.

______________________________________________________________________________________

-- Additional Info --

- When: Sunday, December 13th @ 5:00pm EST (GMT -5)

- Where:

• Main Streamers: ts3server://mwots3.com?port=9095&channel=12v12%20HQ
  
• LRM Team Players: ts3server://mwots3.com?port=9095&channel=LRM%20Team
  
• Meta Team Players: ts3server://mwots3.com?port=9095&channel=Meta%20Team
  
• Players waiting/Non-players: ts3server://mwots3.com?port=9095&channel=Public%20Lounge

- Format:

• 12v12 match
  
• 7 rounds (5 if short on time)

- Restrictions:

• normal 12 man group queue min/max tonnage restrictions (500 min / 600 max)
  
• 3-4 ECM max (Meta)
  
• 4 AMS max total (Meta)

- Maps:

• Crimson Strait
  
• Canyon Network
  
• Alpine Peaks
  
• River City
  
• Tourmaline Desert -> Caustic Valley
  
• Mining Collective
  
• HPG Network -> Forest Colony
  
• Viridian Bog *BONUS ROUND* (teams switch sides for 1 round)

______________________________________________________________________________________

-- Twitch Streaming / Recording Info --

- Spectators:

• BanditB17 (streaming/recording)
  
• CainenEX (streaming/recording)
  
• BigBaka * (non streaming/recording)

* = will get slot if no other streamer/recorder is available

- Twitch Links:

• BanditB17: http://www.multitwitch.tv/BanditB17/cainenEX/bowser1313/celyth/t0rmentedmwo
  
• CainenEX: http://www.twitch.tv/cainenEX
  
• Bows3r: http://www.twitch.tv/bowser1313
  
• Celyth: http://www.twitch.tv/celyth
  
• T0rmented: http://www.twitch.tv/t0rmentedmwo

______________________________________________________________________________________

-- Team / Player Info --

- Team 1 LRMs: Envisage

Members
xCico	A b s u r d i t y	IL MECHWARRIOR
S o l i t u d e	Bows3r	Psichih0lic
MavRCK	I m p u l s e	Ariloc
Lucy Lui	TheMagician	Tarogato
LordSkyKnight	Ascaloth	Catalina Steiner
Vilsen	Jman5

- Team 2 Meta: TheSilken

Members
Celyth	F i s s i o n	Tool Box
Bear Claw	McGral18	MechB Kotare
Herod	Forge88	Colonel Oneill
T0rmented	WuckTEC	Cyberblade
Kira Onime	VVonka	prtNspz

______________________________________________________________________________________

-- Player Pool --

- Primary Sign Ups and Availability:

Player Name	Unit Tag	Availability
Ariloc	[Lords]	✓
xCico	[BMMU]	✓
S o l i t u d e	[EmP]	✓
I m p u l s e	[SHlT]	✓
Bear Claw	[F-M]	✓
Bows3r	[BKMx]	✓
McGral18	[-SA-]	✓
A b s u r d i t y	[BKMx]	✓
Tarogato	[ISEN]	✓
Psichih0lic	[Lords]
Tool Box	[CSJx]
Colonel Oneill	[SG-1]	✓
Cyberblade	[BKMx]	✓
Lucy Lui	[Lords]	✓
MechB Kotare	N/A	✓
TheMagician	[SJR]
Herod	[BKMx]	✓
LordSkyKnight	[S RS]
MavRCK	[D-P]	✓
Celyth	[EmP]	✓
Kira Onime	[PHNX]
F i s s i o n	[EmP]
Catalina Steiner	[VAR]	✓
IL MECHWARRIOR	[ITx]	✓
WuckTEC	[Lords]	✓
Forge88	[BKMx]	✓
Jman5	[QQ]	✓
Ascaloth	[VAR]	✓
VVonka	S RS	✓
Vilsen	need info	✓

- Secondary Sign Ups:

Player Name	Unit Tag	Availability
Apocalypse Pryde	need info	✓
CainenEX	[-M-]	✓
DarthRevis	need info	✓
BigBaka	need info	✓
Abigail Acerose	need info	✓

______________________________________________________________________________________

-- Round / Match Results --

Round / Map	Winners	Stat
1: Crimson Strait	Meta Team	12-0
2: Canyon Network	Meta Team	12-3
3: Alpine Peaks	Meta Team	12-0
4: River City	Meta Team	12-2
5: Caustic Valley	Meta Team (LRM forfeit)	N/A
6: Mining Collective	Meta Team (LRM forfeit)	N/A
7: Forest Colony	Meta Team (LRM forfeit)	N/A
8: * Viridian Bog *	Meta Team (reversed roles, used LRMs)	12-8

Edited by TheSilken, 25 December 2015 - 09:18 PM.

[LordSkyKnight]

What time on Sunday?

I'm also curious what you consider the top meta to be with the recent changes, and what the maps will be. I think the most useful comparison for deckbuilders would be seeing if the LRMs can be effective on maps that someone sane might actually consider bringing them on. Playing this out on maps with tons of cover isn't really giving the LRM team any chance, and doesn't really give us any data on whether the recent changes actually helped LRMs at all.

[TheSilken]

The maps are mixed. Some are more open and others have more cover. If he wants to prove LRMs he needs to do it on both. These map selections are also not final and may be changed as we get closer to Sunday. I personally would like to see Frozen City Night in there but only so many slots able to be used. We'll have to see if any get switched.

Edited by TheSilken, 07 December 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[LordSkyKnight]

I actually don't completely agree with that. That's akin to saying if you want to prove ERLL are useable you need to prove it for all maps, when it's clearly very useable in certain situations but not all. to prove LRMs are in a useable state, all you have to do is prove an LRM deck can consistantly win a particular map. They then become viable for that map. That's how the highest level of play works, and why you see builds that are so specialized in comp, when a more general build can actually perform better in the chaos of puglandia.

I'm super skeptical that even given every advantage conceivable, LRMs become useable on any map. For science's sake I'd be interested in seeing if there is any situation at all where an LRM deck could be used in a comp match.

[Lyoto Machida]

May sound like a dumb question but do the top tier guys even really use LRMs? Meaning, are the LRM team guys going to be familiar with the weapon system of choice they'll be forced to use?

[TheSilken]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 December 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

May sound like a dumb question but do the top tier guys even really use LRMs? Meaning, are the LRM team guys going to be familiar with the weapon system of choice they'll be forced to use?

Catalina is a well known LRM user and some of the others up there are familiar with them. Even if they aren't I'm pretty sure that they will be able to pick it up in no time.

Edited by TheSilken, 07 December 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Jman5]

Oh neat. Can I play?

I have a few questions and concerns.

One of the problems with these sorts of set up is that if one team is just plain better, then it doesn't really matter whether or not their builds are min-maxed to the nth degree. Wouldn't it make sense to make both sides fight with both types of builds? If one team dominates with both builds it says less about the build and more about the players.

Another question is how do you define a LRM build? I have a direwolf build that uses 3 LRM 10s and UACs. Is that a LRM build or a dakka? I have a hunchback that uses 2 LRM 10s and 5 small lasers. If the enemy winds up getting close and I am forced to small laser my way to victory is that a LRM win or a small laser win? I ask this because I 1v1d a guy before and he got super salty when I used my small lasers.

One final question is on meta builds. What sort of restriction will there be on anti-LRM system for meta mechs? Are AMS going to be allowed? Clearly if you know 12 opponents are bringing LRMs 12 AMS would shut down the other team hard. However you never see AMS in competition.

Also, do you think you could randomize that map order again. Since it's best of 7 the first 4 maps are important. I would argue that Crimson Strait, Canyon Network, and River City are the three worst maps for LRMs and best maps for Meta. You also left out what is probably the most favorable LRM map, Caustic Valley. I think that's a little unfair for the LRM side.

[TheSilken]

Yea Jman I can add you in. As for the players Envisage will get first pick and he can even make changes to the roster if he wants to make sure that he doesn't have the disadvantage. Of course if he goes with all the good players then I'm gonna switch some things. But honestly it's LRMs and it doesn't imo matter too much if he has a better team since the weapon system is inferior.

As for LRM build it is whatever builds he views as being viable. It could be a LRM boat or it could be a direct fire mech with a LRM 10 up on top who knows. The meta is gonna be lasers, lasers, more lasers, some Gauss maybe, maybe SRMs/Streaks, and maybe some AC's. Basically whatever works that my players want to bring. As for counters on my team I think 3-4 max ECM, barely any AMS if at all (cuz who really is gonna go into a match with AMS?), and just some plain 'ol Radar Dep.

Btw Jman5 I need unit tag please.

Edited by TheSilken, 07 December 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

TheSilken, on 07 December 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Yea Jman I can add you in. As for the players Envisage will get first pick and he can even make changes to the roster if he wants to make sure that he doesn't have the disadvantage. Of course if he goes with all the good players then I'm gonna switch some things. But honestly it's LRMs and it doesn't imo matter too much if he has a better team since the weapon system is inferior.

As for LRM build it is whatever builds he views as being viable. It could be a LRM boat or it could be a direct fire mech with a LRM 10 up on top who knows. The meta is gonna be lasers, lasers, more lasers, some Gauss maybe, maybe SRMs/Streaks, and maybe some AC's. Basically whatever works that my players want to bring. As for counters on my team I think 3-4 max ECM, barely any AMS if at all (cuz who really is gonna go into a match with AMS?), and just some plain 'ol Radar Dep.

Btw Jman5 I need unit tag please.

Lol...he should just throw an LRM5 with a half ton of ammo on every mech on his LRM team to qualify them as "LRM mechs."

Yeah...leave AMS out, as it's unrealistic haha.

[Jman5]

I'm in QQ.

But yeah I just think it's important to nail down what is and isn't allowed as far as counter measures go. My personal opinion is to ban AMS and limit ECM to no more than 3 per side.

Also about my Caustic Valley request? Can you put it in the first 4 so we have 2 LRM friendly maps and 2 Meta friendly maps?

[Bows3r]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 December 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Lol...he should just throw an LRM5 with a half ton of ammo on every mech on his LRM team to qualify them as "LRM mechs."

Yeah...leave AMS out, as it's unrealistic haha.

That completely defeats the point (if there was a point to begin with), instead of building comp 'mechs, LRM or direct fire mechs, then he'd be building bad mechs that belong at tier noob.

Edited by Bows3r, 07 December 2015 - 03:30 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Bows3r, on 07 December 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

That completely defeats the point (if there was a point to begin with), instead of building comp 'mechs, LRM or direct fire mechs, then he'd be building bad mechs that belong at tier noob.

Well if there are no strict definitions, I'm not sure what this proves anyway. It's like car manufacturers that make the minimum amount of roadworthy cars, just so that they can qualify some supercar version of it for some race series that requires a street version of that car. Is it gaming the rules? Sure but it's up to the organizer to make sure the rules don't get gamed.

He could still build comp mechs that give up 2.5 tons (LRM 5 and half ton ammo), just to call them "LRM mechs."

[Bows3r]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 December 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

Well if there are no strict definitions, I'm not sure what this proves anyway. It's like car manufacturers that make the minimum amount of roadworthy cars, just so that they can qualify some supercar version of it for some race series that requires a street version of that car. Is it gaming the rules? Sure but it's up to the organizer to make sure the rules don't get gamed.

He could still build comp mechs that give up 2.5 tons (LRM 5 and half ton ammo), just to call them "LRM mechs."

Goes back to what I said, then he's not building LRM 'mechs or comp 'mechs, he's building bad 'mechs. Also, it doesn't have to be up to the organizer, the vast majority of players who are signed up to participate in this have significant comp experence, even more so then the organizer himself.

[LordSkyKnight]

Jman5, on 07 December 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Oh neat. Can I play?

I have a few questions and concerns.

One of the problems with these sorts of set up is that if one team is just plain better, then it doesn't really matter whether or not their builds are min-maxed to the nth degree. Wouldn't it make sense to make both sides fight with both types of builds? If one team dominates with both builds it says less about the build and more about the players.

Another question is how do you define a LRM build? I have a direwolf build that uses 3 LRM 10s and UACs. Is that a LRM build or a dakka? I have a hunchback that uses 2 LRM 10s and 5 small lasers. If the enemy winds up getting close and I am forced to small laser my way to victory is that a LRM win or a small laser win? I ask this because I 1v1d a guy before and he got super salty when I used my small lasers.

One final question is on meta builds. What sort of restriction will there be on anti-LRM system for meta mechs? Are AMS going to be allowed? Clearly if you know 12 opponents are bringing LRMs 12 AMS would shut down the other team hard. However you never see AMS in competition.

Also, do you think you could randomize that map order again. Since it's best of 7 the first 4 maps are important. I would argue that Crimson Strait, Canyon Network, and River City are the three worst maps for LRMs and best maps for Meta. You also left out what is probably the most favorable LRM map, Caustic Valley. I think that's a little unfair for the LRM side.

I think the best thing we can get out of this whole exercise is seeing if those types of builds can be usable in any comp situations. I personally think that the map rotation should only involve "LRM friendly" maps to see if an organized use of the weapon system, whether with boats or, more likely, mixed builds, could reliably beat a more generic direct fire strategy on a given map. Jman's experience with paying LRMs in comp would probably be very useful in setting up situations where LRMs could arguably be viable.

On another note, it might be really fun to set up things like this fairly regularly with some of the top comp players to test out different strategies and stream them to get more exposure for the competitive community.

[CainenEX]

Want to add me to the sheet? Might be a good exercise.

CainenEX [-M-] Fridays maybe, Saturdays good, Sundays good.

I can ask guy0320 and JD Toker if they want in.

[Revis Volek]

You can add me to the list if you need pilots, help, someone is MIA

Friday's are good (any time after 5:30pm EST US)

Saturdays till 8pm EST US

Sundays are good (all day)

[Cold Darkness]

i think the more interesting aspects of 2,5 tons for lrms as an addition to a "meta" build is that you have at least 12 times that much. thats allready pretty scary if it comes down focused on a single target. and even if it isnt used in a focused manner, you can use a single mech to occasionally shoot missiles so the enemy has to assume that there is 60 missiles incomming instead of 5.

lrms will at the very least bring alot of depth into any matchup. though, i doubt that the set number of matches will be enough for people to actually explore their new options.

i look forward to seeing a video recording of these matches, if possible from multiple points of views. i hope you guys do some heavy recording there.

[TheSilken]

Ok I need to be clear on some stuff here. By "Best of 7" I mean that the winner will be whoever wins 4 of the rounds but all rounds will be played out regardless of how many times the LRMs lose. The only way they will be cut short is if for some reason we run out of time and need to call it off. As of right now I don't think that will happen since we obviously have a lot of people interested in this event (funny considering how stupid it is xD) and so have a surplus of people from which to fill empty slots. Secondly, the maps will be reviewed by Envisage and his team (which includes the LRM vets) who can request that maps be rearranged, swapped out or whatever they want and I will be happy to do so. Thirdly, this exercise is about proving Envisage's theories incorrect, not necessarily purely LRMs. The only strict definition of LRM builds in this is what Envisage himself states that they are instead of going by the communities' idea of what they should be.

Edit: Also the primary people who are going to be players here are Top Tier players since that is what Envisage wants. Everyone else who is not either a high level comp player, notorious public queue player, or a worshiped LRM god, is not getting into play unless slots are empty and need to be filled. I'm not trying to exclude you but the point here is that he said that if used in his tactics/strats that they are viable in Top Tier play and maybe comp play. Because of this I will write down everyone who would like to play up above but unless a slot is empty, and unable to be filled by a player confirmed to be on the level of players such as Celyth, Tarogato, Forge88, or McGral18 for example, then they won't be added in. If the number of these players is great they can always start another Lobby and do the same thing correct?

Edit 2: Still looking for Spectators to stream/record also. If interested in those spots please let me know.

Edited by TheSilken, 07 December 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[CainenEX]

TheSilken, on 07 December 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Edit: Also the primary people who are going to be players here are Top Tier players since that is what Envisage wants. Everyone else who is not either a high level comp player, notorious public queue player, or a worshiped LRM god, is not getting into play unless slots are empty and need to be filled. I'm not trying to exclude you but the point here is that he said that if used in his tactics/strats that they are viable in Top Tier play and maybe comp play. Because of this I will write down everyone who would like to play up above but unless a slot is empty, and unable to be filled by a player confirmed to be on the level of players such as Celyth, Tarogato, Forge88, or McGral18 for example, then they won't be added in. If the number of these players is great they can always start another Lobby and do the same thing correct?

Edit 2: Still looking for Spectators to stream/record also. If interested in those spots please let me know.

Fair enough. If a test of skill is required I can submit to it if needed. I am but a student anyways, mostly here to observe and listen. I overall wish to help and contribute to the greater good of the community, so if I can do so in another way then that is fine.

Capable of streaming and/or recording with action.

[TheSilken]

CainenEX, on 07 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Capable of streaming and/or recording with action.

Would be nice if you did. Can I put you down for 1 of the slots?