40 replies to this topic

[MadHornet]

I've been an avid Cougar pilot since the day they came out because honestly what is funnier than a light mech with the damage output of a heavy? Well, it's not so funny when tasked with delivering that damage. It's not a fast light by any means and cannot be made any more agile aside from the jump jets of the H variant, which unfortunately sacrifices precious hardpoints and slots in the side torsos that this mech needs desperately. Ideally the Cougar needs to be played as if it was a heavy, but using it's smaller size to deliver massive blows to the enemy while they're distracted, and side loading the weapons to the head/side torso/arm in order to peek around corners.

...Issue is, and what I think makes the mech suffer the most, is not enough acceleration and deceleration, something that could easily be modified without giving it the old MWO treatment of buffing armor and structure which doesn't help light mechs if they can't remove themselves from the situation fast enough. I understand that the engine is the primary determining factor when it comes to these values, but the Cougar with it's fixed engine does not have that luxury and could use some creative freedom here to help it out. The Mist Lynx no longer has a canonically fixed Active Probe, so why not do this?

An accel/decel buff would greatly improve it's peeking ability to deliver the damage and not get overwhelmingly punished for it, especially when you are forced to put most of your firepower in an arm. It's one of, if not the most difficult mech to play, but it hits like a truck if you get lucky.

Edited by MadHornet, 30 August 2021 - 11:25 PM.

[FupDup]

After the engine desync happened, there's really no excuse for the Cougar to have lower agility values than other 35-ton light mechs.

The rationale that PGI appeared to use is that they gave mechs with small stock engines lower agility...which contradicted the entire point of the desync (it was supposed to allow small-engine mechs to be viable instead of useless).

[Wid1046]

MadHornet, on 30 August 2021 - 04:14 PM, said:

[redacted]
I understand that the engine is the primary determining factor when it comes to these values, but the Cougar with it's fixed engine does not have that luxury and could use some creative freedom here to help it out.
[redacted]

Navid confirmed that all skill nodes can be turned into quirks, so it would actually be possible to add speed to the chassis by giving it a speed tweak quirk.

A 10% speed tweak quirk would allow the chassis to go 89.1 kph baseline and 95.2 kph with the all the speed tweak nodes.

I'm not sure if that is what it really needs, but it would certainly be interesting.

[MadHornet]

FupDup, on 30 August 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

After the engine desync happened, there's really no excuse for the Cougar to have lower agility values than other 35-ton light mechs.

The rationale that PGI appeared to use is that they gave mechs with small stock engines lower agility...which contradicted the entire point of the desync (it was supposed to allow small-engine mechs to be viable instead of useless).

Slower lights get screwed over by that, just as lights in general get screwed over by so much else. Just when we think us light pilots get something good coming our way, someone complains our playstyle isn't fair and makes it worse for us.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I don’t run a Cougar very often, but the C right torso comes with a 10% boost to accel, decel, and turn rate. I assume you’ve started with that?

[MadHornet]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 August 2021 - 07:05 PM, said:

I don’t run a Cougar very often, but the C right torso comes with a 10% boost to accel, decel, and turn rate. I assume you’ve started with that?

Unfortunately it isn't enough, hardly worth considering when you could have another hardpoint there and decreasing your reliance on arms which are often to first thing to get hit poking around corners. Cougar needs greater accel/decel in general.

[Elizander]

MadHornet, on 30 August 2021 - 07:23 PM, said:

Unfortunately it isn't enough, hardly worth considering when you could have another hardpoint there and decreasing your reliance on arms which are often to first thing to get hit poking around corners. Cougar needs greater accel/decel in general.

Have you at least experimented with the agility tree to see what percentage of accel/decel is good for it?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

cougar is (or was?) a solid choice for faction, for quite a few reasons.

now don't get me wrong, it could use some help; just pointing out that you don't choose a cougar because if its agility; you take it because it can carry a crap-ton of weapons for its size.

so imo the help it needs is in the armor/heat/geometry/weapon-quirks department;
a gunboat won't be a racecar. and that's not it's job in the first place. help it being a better gunboat

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 31 August 2021 - 03:49 AM.

[MadHornet]

Elizander, on 31 August 2021 - 02:19 AM, said:

Have you at least experimented with the agility tree to see what percentage of accel/decel is good for it?

Yeah, it hasn't been adequate enough. I've put maximum into kinetic burst and hard brake before.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 31 August 2021 - 03:47 AM, said:

cougar is (or was?) a solid choice for faction, for quite a few reasons.

now don't get me wrong, it could use some help; just pointing out that you don't choose a cougar because if its agility; you take it because it can carry a crap-ton of weapons for its size.

so imo the help it needs is in the armor/heat/geometry/weapon-quirks department;
a gunboat won't be a racecar. and that's not it's job in the first place. help it being a better gunboat

I'm not asking it to be speedy, I'm just asking it to at least have some get-up-and-go so it isn't a target because it can't accelerate fast enough to get out of the way. The thing gets absolutely mangled sometimes for exposing any longer than a few seconds, and that's if you play your cards right and use assaults and heavies as distraction. Using corners, hills, and teammates is how this mech plays most effectively. You can't make it better without catering to it's only means of not losing all of it's weapons in a matter of moments.

Edited by MadHornet, 31 August 2021 - 11:44 AM.

[BLOODREDSIN]

Best thing you could do is move the torso mounted jump jets to the legs where they belong. Was a grand dumb a$$ idea to put them in the torso. PGI half a$$ed this mech right from the start. They couldn't even get the modeling right as most the variants are missing the arms.

So what if it can carry a sizable loadout for a light? That was no justification for making the rest of the chassis suck. The thing is as big as a barn door and as slow as mechs 2 weight classes heavier. This mech doesnt magically shrug off direct hits like that walking trashcan the urbanmech or some of the other offenders in the light class. Then there's the jump jet issue.

Take a look at Mechwarrior 4 Cougar capabilities and see how it was done right. ( i dont mean by lore i mean by options and fun playing the chassis )

[FupDup]

BLOODREDSIN, on 31 August 2021 - 12:03 PM, said:

Best thing you could do is move the torso mounted jump jets to the legs where they belong. Was a grand dumb a$$ idea to put them in the torso. PGI half a$$ed this mech right from the start. They couldn't even get the modeling right as most the variants are missing the arms. So what if it can carry a sizable loadout for a light? That was no justification for making the rest of the chassis suck. The thing is as big as a barn door and as slow as mechs 2 weight classes heavier. This mech doesnt magically shrug off direct hits like that walking trashcan the urbanmech or some of the other offenders in the light class. Then there's the jump jet issue. Take a look at Mechwarrior 4 Cougar capabilities and see how it was done right. ( i dont mean by lore i mean by options and fun playing the chassis )

The mech doesn't have any open slots in the legs so it's impossible to put JJs or anything else there.

MW4 took a ton of liberties that PGI never will, for better or for worse. We gotta work with what we've been given. Some more accel/decel would be nice for quality of life, but I think the bulk of its power needs to come from increased armor and weapon quirks. If it's gonna have the speed of a heavy mech, let it punch like one.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Reverse the desync and quirk the lower engine cap mechs to compensate.

[HauptmanT]

LT. HARDCASE, on 31 August 2021 - 01:04 PM, said:

Reverse the desync and quirk the lower engine cap mechs to compensate.

But then Kodiaks will be king of the game again. Granted you should be scared when you see a Kodiak looking at you, but the fact that they could get in and hug you so easily was just absurd. Dysync happened because half of every team was a mech than ran a 400 engine, and anything less was just junk. Why do you hate the Atlas Hardcase?

[TELEFORCE]

I'm fine with it getting better accell/decell quirks. Just fix the stupid puny laser arms while at it!

[PocketYoda]

Cougars do have some issues but speed never really felt like one of them, my issue with them is their lack of firepower.

[BLOODREDSIN]

FupDup, on 31 August 2021 - 12:58 PM, said:

The mech doesn't have any open slots in the legs so it's impossible to put JJs or anything else there.

And why does it not have any open slots in the legs? The Cougar is the only light mech that has forced armor slots in his legs. They do not belong there. Each cougar leg has 2 bogus armor slots that take up the space where the jump jets should be mounted. And i mean for all cougar variants. Not just 1. They intentionally gimped the living daylights out of the Cougar. If you want to jump you sacrifice 2 weapon mounts on a mech that has 4 in total ( both arms and both torso) so you just cut your capabilities in half just to have the mobility you should have in the first place. Its a curious question why Cougar pilots are put at such a massive disadvantage for more mobility.

FupDup, on 31 August 2021 - 12:58 PM, said:

MW4 took a ton of liberties that PGI never will, for better or for worse. We gotta work with what we've been given. Some more accel/decel would be nice for quality of life, but I think the bulk of its power needs to come from increased armor and weapon quirks. If it's gonna have the speed of a heavy mech, let it punch like one.

I am confused as to why PGI is afraid to take liberties all of a sudden. They have done so the whole time we been playing and supporting this game with zero conscience for the repercussions.

I agree, we need to work with what we have and make things better. So let us take that piece of junk side torso mounted JJ cougar setup and pull those BS armor slots out of the legs so the jump jets can be mounted there.(on all Cougar chassis) And finally let us put the missing claw arms on the offending arm pods.

[pattonesque]

MechaGnome, on 01 September 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

Cougars do have some issues but speed never really felt like one of them, my issue with them is their lack of firepower.

you can fit significant amounts of firepower on Cougars specifically because of their low speed. Something like this for instance

https://mech.nav-alp...#35eba827_COU-E

[1453 R]

HauptmanT, on 01 September 2021 - 01:05 AM, said:

But then Kodiaks will be king of the game again. Granted you should be scared when you see a Kodiak looking at you, but the fact that they could get in and hug you so easily was just absurd. Dysync happened because half of every team was a mech than ran a 400 engine, and anything less was just junk. Why do you hate the Atlas Hardcase?

Counterpoint: why do you hate the Kodiak? Or Mr. Gargles? Or the mere existence of engines rated above 300?

I'll argue it every time it comes up: Engine Desync was a horrible mistake. The very micro-instant it happened, everybody and their fairy godmothers cut their engines down to the absolute bone and dropped their 'mechs top 60kph or less. Spending tonnage on a bigger engine became a curse, a trap, and a boneheaded move only ever made by total rookies because spending that tonnage buys you literally f#$%ing nothing. It sucks infinite donkey ****** and I absolutely hate it, there's absolutely no way to invest in superior mobility on a 'Mech anymore.

Everybody Else: "Why not just pilot the 'Mechs that have better mobility to start with then, huh?!"

Rei's Answer: "WHAT F#$%ING 'MECHS WITH BETTER MOBILITY?! DO YOU SEE ANY?! I SURE AS S@#$ DON'T!"

Rei's Answer when she's calmer and more willing to speak reasonably: "You can invest in better weapons for your 'Mech no matter what that 'Mech is. You can invest in more armor. You can tailor your balance of guns, durability, heat efficiency, and everything else, but your 'Mech's movement profile is now completely fixed. There's no way whatsoever to affect your 'Mech's ability to move in the hardware, in its configuration. If you can change the engine in your 'Mech, doing so accomplishes absolutely nothing. The only way to affect the mobility/movement profile of your 'Mech is to dump twenty to thirty skill points into a skill tree absolutely no one sane ever invests in because the returns simply aren't there. The Mobility tree is a trap and only madlads absolutely desperate for any edge in movement they can possibly get ever bother, usually to their significant detriment. It's immensely frustrating and a real problem, especially when working with larger 'Mechs that have a large engine and an anemic payload such as the Gargoyle or Linebacker that now derive absolutely zero benefit from their fixed overlarge engine but suffer all the disadvantages of that engine in practice."

[FupDup]

BLOODREDSIN, on 01 September 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

And why does it not have any open slots in the legs? The Cougar is the only light mech that has forced armor slots in his legs. They do not belong there.

It's not the only light mech with this drawback. Look at every other Clan light Omnimech with the exception of the Kit Fox. The Mist Lynx has 1 open slot per leg. Cheetah and Adder have no open slots. There are plenty of Omnimechs above the light class that can't put anything in their legs.

I think you're confusing Omnimechs for Battlemechs. MWO is the first and only MW game to make Omnimechs have different customization rules from Battlemechs, which is why this seems like a sudden surprise.

BLOODREDSIN, on 01 September 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

I am confused as to why PGI is afraid to take liberties all of a sudden. They have done so the whole time we been playing and supporting this game with zero conscience for the repercussions.

PGI takes liberties with stuff like weapon stats and quirks. They generally don't take liberties with the construction rules, other than a few recent slot reductions on some IS weapons. I don't count the engine/JJ rule differences under this because there's no point to honoring those in a game like this.

And frankly, where would you even put the fixed armor slots that currently sit in the legs? You're going to have to pay the slot tax for that Ferro-Fibrous Armor one way or another.

I also don't think that freeing up 2 slots per ST would have any significant impact on the Cougar's viability. The mech is bad because it has all the weaknesses of a light mech (low armor, generally lacks firepower) with none of the strengths (small size/skinny hitboxes, fast speed). Cranking up the armor and firepower quirks would actually make it threatening. I guess a speed quirk would help too but that makes the mech a bit less unique.

Edited by FupDup, 01 September 2021 - 01:07 PM.

[1453 R]

Nobody pilots a Cougar to be zippy. People pilot the worthless things because they want to be 65% gun and think it's neat to have a light 'Mech carry moderate medium 'Mech level firepower. Yes, I said "moderate medium 'Mech". No, the Cougar does not, and never will, carry "heavy 'Mech" level firepower. It has eighteen and a half tons of pod space assuming maximum effective armor; the Huntsman and Stormcrow both beat the pants off the Cougar firepower-wise, the Nova nearly matches it even with STD armor and structure plus six and a half tons of fixed non-weapon equipment. Both medium Clan BattleMechs blow the Cougar all the way out of the water firepower-wise, and the medium 'Mechs that 'lose' to the Cougar in a firepower contest are also the ones that blow it all the way out of the water in terms of mobility.

The Cougar is a bad 'Mech that should feel bad. Its only function, in the original TT canon, was to be cheap and relatively easy to produce by OmniMech standards. In MWO it's slow as hell and carries limited firepower. Making it maneuver more quickly, accelerate and decelerate better to poke more effectively, would indeed make it better, but that would not make it good. Anything a Cougar can do, a Stormcrow can do strictly better in every conceivable sense. The Adder only carries two less tons of weaponry in exchange for much better agility and groundspeed that's merely disappointing rather than Unacceptaburu. It's one of those designs that should've just stayed in tabletop, and damn the MW4 appearance.