43 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

Giving Em The Business, on 09 December 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

10 to the component hit and 2.5 splash damage to two adjacent components. Total damage 15

I personally find this a bit of a waste. Because the clan large pulse laser does more damage than the clan er PPC =l what's next? Splash damage on UAC 20's so that gauss does more damage on pinpoint?... well this kind of already happens...

I personally wish for clan mechs to have quirks on most of the ER PPC "tier 3 to 5" mechs to get higher damage ER PPC's, things like adder, warhawk, summoner, etc.... or omnipod bonus for the mad dog A, Timberwolf D, etc....
10 damage er ppc's ain't cutting it for me...

[DivineEvil]

PPCs are all fine as long a you know how to use them. They are seen as "bad" just because Lasers are much easier to use, and base heat cap of 30 points allows too much freedom for them to be used for alpha-barfing. Laser-vomit is tolerated, while PPC alphas are heat-scaled beyond reason.

[Kshat]

Lily from animove, on 10 December 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

but its so lovely to play

And don't forget about the Nova!

P.S.: There is something wrong with fast traveling projectiles - hitreg is sometimes wonky.
Therefore, ERPPCs seem to go "right through" an enemy.

Edited by Kshat, 10 December 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Void Angel]

PPS: PGI's changes to weapon stats from canon are not "for no apparent reason," and it is dishonest for people to make that claim. The weapons' non-canon numbers are the result of years of buffs, nerfs, and testing, and changes to them are based on player feedback, demographic data, and internal testing by PGI.

[Void Angel]

DivineEvil, on 10 December 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

PPCs are all fine as long a you know how to use them. They are seen as "bad" just because Lasers are much easier to use, and base heat cap of 30 points allows too much freedom for them to be used for alpha-barfing. Laser-vomit is tolerated, while PPC alphas are heat-scaled beyond reason.

Are they fine, or are they heat scaled beyond reason? Those statements don't seem to me like they can both be true. Remember, as well, the PPC's frontloaded pinpoint damage makes its damage more valuable to a skilled pilot than lasers may be, up to a point.

You're wrong about laser vomit being tolerated, however; PGI is simply taking small steps, likely in an effort to avoid breaking things inadvertently. Heat Scale was added to Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers last patch, for example, and the Gauss Rifle nerf seems intended to break thst weapon away from being a low-heat adjunct to laser vomit staring builds - their primary use for a while now. This tells me that while we may, or may not, like how fast and/or where PGI is going on laser vomit, they do recognize the issue and are doing something about it.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Void Angel, on 09 December 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

Actually, the Clans tend toward superiority when played well in the competitive style - that's part of why they've won both Battle of Tukkayyid events held thus far. The reason for the relative nerfing of the Clans from their supertechnological tabletop version was twofold:

Actually, the clans didnt won tukkayyid, competitive merc teams did. Why did they indeed choose to fight as clans? Not because they are superior, because some teams paid millions of C-Bills to another, and also they could get drops, since clan players are alot less than IS. Why is that? Because IS is the meta, better over-quirked mechs and alot better alpha pin point damage.
Is the game balanced? Well... no... this last nerf on the clans was too much. its the 5th nerf on the clans and the 5th buff on IS. This is a team effort game, so the better a team is organized, the better chances to win it has. And we tend to see more organized teams on the few clan players rather than IS teams.
Remember one thing, we cant balance a game regarding the ultra competitive teams, but to the overall population. Also, the clan tech superiority is Lore legal
To any new player on the game, avoid the clan mechs, how they are priced is simply not worth it. Besides, we can have so much better options with IS mechs.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Clammers be grumpy about the nerfs to their clan tech. Don't be discouraged if you like clan mechs better. They're still plenty good despite what many will tell you. I'm still rocking my ERPPC summoner, and my performance in CW with it is still solid. I love my omnis <3

[Void Angel]

Spadejack, on 10 December 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Actually, the clans didnt won tukkayyid, competitive merc teams did. Why did they indeed choose to fight as clans? Not because they are superior, because some teams paid millions of C-Bills to another, and also they could get drops, since clan players are alot less than IS. Why is that? Because IS is the meta, better over-quirked mechs and alot better alpha pin point damage.
Is the game balanced? Well... no... this last nerf on the clans was too much. its the 5th nerf on the clans and the 5th buff on IS. This is a team effort game, so the better a team is organized, the better chances to win it has. And we tend to see more organized teams on the few clan players rather than IS teams.
Remember one thing, we cant balance a game regarding the ultra competitive teams, but to the overall population. Also, the clan tech superiority is Lore legal
To any new player on the game, avoid the clan mechs, how they are priced is simply not worth it. Besides, we can have so much better options with IS mechs.

Have you noticed that you're literally incapable of discussing balance as balance? You can't help yourself - you just have to mention how the Clans are "supposed to" have better machines. That indicates that you just might not be totally neutral when it comes to evaluating Clantech in MWO. The fact of the matter is that while Tukkayyid events generate a lot of data, PGI doesn't just lick their finger and stick it in the air to determine buffs and nerfs.

You're inadvertently using a fallacy of composition, here. You're right that you do have to balance based mostly on the overall player base. However, there's no reason to suspect that PGI didn't consider that overall demographic data when they made the latest round of changes: this is where your fallacy comes into play. You're treatingbuffs to part of the Inner Sphere's mech lineup (and part of the Clans') as a buff to all of that lineup - but this is incorrect. "The Inner Sphere" didn't get buffed; their underperforming 'mechs did. When was the last time you saw an Atlas before the changes, even in PuG play? In fact, several top-performing Inner Sphere 'mechs got nerfed, while underwhelming Clan omnis were upquirked - and though the Clan ER lasers were nerfed, Heat Scale was added to the Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Laser, the workhorse weapon of choice for a lot of Inner Sphere builds, while none of the top-performing Clan 'mechs were touched, except to remove their negative mobility quirks. Seriously, all three of the meta Thunderbolts were nerfed, even the 5S.

I have my reservations about some of the buffs and nerfs in this last balance patch, just as you do - but it's important that we evaluate those doubts in light of what's actually happening in the game. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Void Angel, on 10 December 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Have you noticed that you're literally incapable of discussing balance as balance? You can't help yourself - you just have to mention how the Clans are "supposed to" have better machines. That indicates that you just might not be totally neutral when it comes to evaluating Clantech in MWO. The fact of the matter is that while Tukkayyid events generate a lot of data, PGI doesn't just lick their finger and stick it in the air to determine buffs and nerfs.

You're inadvertently using a fallacy of composition, here. You're right that you do have to balance based mostly on the overall player base. However, there's no reason to suspect that PGI didn't consider that overall demographic data when they made the latest round of changes: this is where your fallacy comes into play. You're treatingbuffs to part of the Inner Sphere's mech lineup (and part of the Clans') as a buff to all of that lineup - but this is incorrect. "The Inner Sphere" didn't get buffed; their underperforming 'mechs did. When was the last time you saw an Atlas before the changes, even in PuG play? In fact, several top-performing Inner Sphere 'mechs got nerfed, while underwhelming Clan omnis were upquirked - and though the Clan ER lasers were nerfed, Heat Scale was added to the Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Laser, the workhorse weapon of choice for a lot of Inner Sphere builds, while none of the top-performing Clan 'mechs were touched, except to remove their negative mobility quirks. Seriously, all three of the meta Thunderbolts were nerfed, even the 5S.

I have my reservations about some of the buffs and nerfs in this last balance patch, just as you do - but it's important that we evaluate those doubts in light of what's actually happening in the game. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Im sorry if my post made you confused, im not trying to push for the clans nor IS. I love the lore, i honestly do, and as such, it hurts me alot and also to the majority of people playing this game the absurds to the lore that is made. I do understand that it is a way to balance, otherwise it would be a stomp.
That is why i started this discussion:

http://mwomercs.com/...r-clans-and-is/

Take a look, read it, and give me your opinion

[Void Angel]

Er, you made some very specific statements claiming that the game was imbalanced ("the Inner Sphere is the meta") and that the Clans were overnerfed - my remarks were directed to those remarks, but I'll happily go take a look at your thread.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

Are they fine, or are they heat scaled beyond reason? Those statements don't seem to me like they can both be true. Remember, as well, the PPC's frontloaded pinpoint damage makes its damage more valuable to a skilled pilot than lasers may be, up to a point.

They are fine with specific behavior. If you can help yourself using them without triggering heat scale, there's no problem. It's not that heat scale on them is not required (though it actually isn't), but the multiplier is way too high.

Quote

You're wrong about laser vomit being tolerated, however; PGI is simply taking small steps, likely in an effort to avoid breaking things inadvertently. Heat Scale was added to Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers last patch, for example, and the Gauss Rifle nerf seems intended to break thst weapon away from being a low-heat adjunct to laser vomit staring builds - their primary use for a while now. This tells me that while we may, or may not, like how fast and/or where PGI is going on laser vomit, they do recognize the issue and are doing something about it.

The issues it, PGI is making lots of small changes in all sorts of ways affecting peripherial values, instead of simply working out the properly lower value for base Heat Capacity, that allows the laser abuse, while making heatsinks stronger and thus more beneficial to compensate.

Heat Capacity is and always were the simple, fundamental alpha-strike limiting factor in BT, and Heat Dissipation is what provided general DPS limits. But instead of adjusting Dissipation to account for increased durability and weapon cooldowns, PGI has adjusted base Heat-Cap, which made the alpha-strike mentality possible to begin with. So you can barf lasers alphas around, but cant do so with PPC, hence why it is not popular pick.

Being afraid of breaking things with PTS is meaningless.

Edited by DivineEvil, 11 December 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

DivineEvil, on 11 December 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Heat Capacity is and always were the simple, fundamental alpha-strike limiting factor in BT, and Heat Dissipation is what provided general DPS limits.

What are you talking about? Please explain where low heat capacity exists in Tabletop?

Lets take a http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar as an example. It has 4xCERPPC and 30 DHS. It fires (alphas) all 4 of those ERPPCs. What heat effects does it get? None. 60 heat created, 60 heat sunk. Since you can have up to 30 heat after sinking in TT, that mech has a 'capacity' of 90, does it not?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 11 December 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Nightmare1, on 09 December 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

[...]

"This is not the board game. This is an FPS-style mecha shooter. As such, certain things simply won't transition well from the board game and will need to be redesigned."

[...]

What the poster meant to say is :
This could have been a nice transition from board game to a mecha simulator, sadly the developer neither did understand the balancing of the board game rules nor was able to grasp the fact that the board rules are not turn dependent but rather set to fit 10 secs time tics and could have just been copied if heat and damage per timeframe, armor, range, terrain interaction etc would have remained the same.
But if you take components out of something you can't expect it still to work.
So....Yes
PPCs suck because their DMG/time; dmg/weight; dmg/heat/time ratios just suck, compaired with other weapons in this game.
Reason: Weapons fire too fast, instant pinpoint dmg ( no convergence delay for multiple smal weapons ), no target aquisition for firing multiple weapons --> big weapons do less dmg/weight so you rather take multiple smaler without penalty ..... and the list could be expanded to fill the next 6 pages.

Thats what happens when ppl just take something appart without understanding how it works before tinkering.

Edited by The Basilisk, 11 December 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Kshat, on 10 December 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

And don't forget about the Nova!

P.S.: There is something wrong with fast traveling projectiles - hitreg is sometimes wonky.
Therefore, ERPPCs seem to go "right through" an enemy.

well yeah NVA can work in the good old poptarting way, but I don't like the waste of potential superinfaltional amounts of E's the NVA chassis offers

Void Angel, on 10 December 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI doesn't just lick their finger and stick it in the air to determine buffs and nerfs.

Maybe not for anlysing the imbalance, but somehow I think they they do this when determining the buffs they give some mechs, or nerfs.

I wodner about tuk 2 stats because "clans" won more than last time yet we had so many "balance" happening.

[Void Angel]

Developers in general use player complaints to focus their attention - but they're not just checking which way the wind blows and handing out changes to satisfy complaints. If that were the case, ECM would have been changed a long time ago, the Stormcrow and Timberwolf would have been nerfed much sooner (and harder,) and the Firestarter wouldn't still be the top-performing Inner Sphere Light 'mech.

Tukkayyid stats from either event give you a lot of demographic data, but analysis of that data can be problematic. For example, which units go where can make a big difference, and the Clans - as attackers - don't have to defend generators. Then there's confounding variables that are difficult to account for: the seemingly lower price tag of Inner Sphere 'mechs leads more players to adopt those machines, and pushes them toward IS factions for Tukkayyid; some players may enjoy fighting for their favorite side more than maximizing their advantages; highly competitive teams will gravitate toward the best 'Mechs; and meanwhile higher population (and queue times) will push some players away from the Inner Sphere toward the Clans.

It's impossible to falsify conclusions that are heavily influenced by these variables, and many of the differences of opinion regarding balance revolve around assumptions concerning them.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 December 2015 - 10:06 PM.

[SaltBeef]

You do have to admit the CERPPC kind of has a TT like Die Role applied when you factor in Hit reg but that is a whole plethora of other threads.

Edited by SaltBeef, 12 December 2015 - 03:16 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Spadejack, on 10 December 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Im sorry if my post made you confused, im not trying to push for the clans nor IS. I love the lore, i honestly do, and as such, it hurts me alot and also to the majority of people playing this game the absurds to the lore that is made.

Let me stop you right there. No, the majority of players are not "hurt a lot" by PGI circumventing lore for balance. A majority of players actually approve or don't care.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 12 December 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

Let me stop you right there. No, the majority of players are not "hurt a lot" by PGI circumventing lore for balance. A majority of players actually approve or don't care.

Yes, the majority of people. I usually go around the biggest and most famous teams TS, i know alot of people and i do know the general sentiment, IS and clan sides. So yes, i would say the majority.
But take a look at the post i made, there youll find what the majority talks in how the game should be balanced

http://mwomercs.com/...r-clans-and-is/

[Void Angel]

Neither of you know how the majority of the player base feels: you may have a good understanding of certain teams' mindsets, or whatnot, but in no way can your personal interactions provide a representative sample of the current player base - much less the prospective players being brought in by Steam.

[Tarl Cabot]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 December 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

[color=#CCCCCC]
DivineEvil, on 11 December 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:[/color]
[color=#959595]

Heat Capacity is and always were the simple, fundamental alpha-strike limiting factor in BT, and Heat Dissipation is what provided general DPS limits.[/color]


What are you talking about? Please explain where low heat capacity exists in Tabletop?

Lets take a http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar as an example. It has 4xCERPPC and 30 DHS. It fires (alphas) all 4 of those ERPPCs. What heat effects does it get? None. 60 heat created, 60 heat sunk. Since you can have up to 30 heat after sinking in TT, that mech has a 'capacity' of 90, does it not?

For TT based on 10sec rounds is one thing, but the closest you will get to it is the Solaris VII instead of the default BT settings. And do not forget, whether it be TT or SVII, there are no additional heat threshold being used.





Hellstar 4ERPPC / 30 DHS / max 64kph (4/6 hex speed)

Solaris VII 2.5sec rounds
120 heat cap (4*2.5=10sec)
2pt/DHS
30DHS equipped
60 cooling pts
60 Heat per ERPPC (15 heat pts ERPPC * 4 multiplier/same as heat scale)
3 Delay (Fire Round 1, Rd2/Rd3/Rd4, Fire Rd5)
(only Heatscale in effect is shutdown, as per MWO)

Hellstar runs 6 hexes
2pts heat running
Rd1 - Fire 3 ERPPC
Heat spikes to 182pts (180+2)
30 DHS cools mech to 122 at end of Rd1/shutdown

Rd 2 no action, heat drops to 62 at end of Rd2

Rd 3 mech starts up and runs another 6 hexes
2pts heat
Heat scale at 64pts
Heat scale drops to 4pts at end of Rd 3.

Rd 4 mech still running, ERPPC will be ready next Rd
2pts heat
Heat at 0pts at end of Rd4

***********************************
Solaris VII 2.5sec rounds but using MWO cooldown timer for ERPPC - 2delay/round (5secs

120 heat cap (4*2.5=10sec)
2pt/DHS
30DHS equipped
60 cooling pts
60 Heat per ERPPC (15 heat pts ERPPC * 4 multiplier/same as heat scale)
2 Delay MWO (Fire Round 1, Rd2/Rd3, Fire Rd4)
(only Heatscale in effect is shutdown, as per MWO)

Hellstar runs 6 hexes
2pts heat running
Rd1 - Fire tic 1 - 2 ERPPCs
Heat spikes to 122pts (120+2)
30 DHS cools mech to 62pts at end of Rd1

Rd 2 mech continues running 5 more hexes
2pts heat
Heat rises to 64pts
Fires tic2 - 1ERPPC
Heat spikes to 124pts
Rd2 - cools down to 64pts

Rd 3 mech runs another 6 hexes
2pts heat
Heat rise to 66pts
Fires tic3 - 1ERPPC
Heat scale spikes to 126pts
End Rd3 cools to 66pts / tic1 would be ready in Rd4.

Rd 4 mech still running
2pts heat
Heat rises to 68pts
Pilot can fire tic1 again (120heat), heat up to 186/cooldown 126pts for shutdown, or change to chain fire.

*****************************
Simply trying to put things into perspective, that MWO in many aspects is closer to Solaris VII and its 2.5 sec rounds than it is to BT's 10 sec rounds, especially since S7 has cooldown timers (delays). Every PC game has interpreted the heatscale and cooldown timers scaling differently since then.

If you take firing those weapons in MWO, without the ghost heat, and current MWO heat scale 30+(# HS*type). For a TW with 26DHS (10 true + 16semi)

Alpine firing 1 ERPPC gets to 14%, 2 ERPPC gets it up to 35%ish, 3 kicks in ghost heat approx 86%.

River City - 1 abt 21% / 2 abt 43% / 3 w/GH 94%

The 3ERPPC is closer to where it hits the heat scale when compared to S7. Reducing or locking the heat capacity to a lower level, increasing the cooldown timer on long range energy weapons would have the potential of having players reconsider their weapon load. Then also adding 1 or 2 additional heat thresholds that would restrict speed, more line like the current C-XL/ST loss movement penalty (and remove side penalty from it), has additional potential of more changes to load outs.

/shrugs I do not see any of that happening though. So we will continue with the laser vomit and the few mechs that can dish it out on both sides

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 December 2015 - 11:56 AM.