73 replies to this topic

[Wrel]

Okay so, first things first:

1) New guy to the forums. I searched first, and saw similar posts, but nothing specifically asking what I was wondering. Hope it hasn't been covered elsewhere.

2) I've tested many a Betas; I know how NDA works. Not sure if what I'm asking would cross those lines, hopefully it doesn't.

Okay so through the late 90s I was always a casual Mechwarrior fan. I played it, but I wasn't absorbed by it. I enjoyed it, and looked for a sequel, so needless to say I found a home. One of my favorite memories, and many other people's as well, was piloting the Mechs with a joystick. It added so much more to the experience of playing, just like a good flight or space sim. Sadly, with the end of the 90's came the end of most of those genres, and with them, the retirement of the joystick.

Fast forward to MWO and the Razer ARTEMIS teaser pictures, and it got my nostalgic side all a-tingle. While waiting till the game drops, I realized I still had my Mechwarrior 4 CDs laying around, so I fished them and my older Saitek joystick out. After fiddling around with the software, I got it running, and the first thing I noticed was:

"Holy crap, my joystick aim is terrible..."

I felt like I was just learning to walk again. Sure, a lot of it was rust, but the majority of it was the transition from a 201X-era 5600+ DPI gaming mouse back down to basically an archaic lever with a spring below it. Moving was well and good, but trying to keep my sites dead center on the enemy while circle strafing and trying to battle the stiff spring in the 'dead zone' was almost impossible. Sure, I could rip off some laser pulses or PPC barrages as I swung the crosshair over the enemy, but the big problem was LRMs. Trying to keep the aim centered on a far off target for a few seconds to aquire a lock, while we were both moving in different directions was just an awful experience.

I ask this mostly because I planned to play a Catapult or other fire support mech, as my friend is planning on playing a scout, and we want to work as a pair. From what anyone has seen/experienced, how is the lock-aiming with joysticks in MWO? Is it feasible? Is there maybe a floating-auto target that will snap a lock on as long as the target is selected and within a small cone around the aiming reticule?

To me, it seems that if there isn't something like this, or some new joystick technology to allow for smoother aiming, opposed to the spring deadzone, that it would be infinitely better to play a LRM style Heavy mech with mouse aiming, where you can be as precise as you need to be, but totally ruin the old-school joystick experience. I'm hoping that isn't that case.

Edited by Wrel, 11 July 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[ThinkTank]

I've never found using a joystick good for mech games. The problem is with aiming, as you have mentioned. A good mouse is much better for fine control.

[wargonglok]

Aiming is worse. but joystick is more fun, how old is your joystick?

[Team Leader]

I guess it might all depend on the joystick? Ive never used anything but a joystick for every MW game and my aim isnt very bad. At least I hope not. I guess a mouse would be more accurate but joysticks are just so much COOLER.
Edit: Actually I'm not really clear on what the question is. It definetly is feasible to aim with a joystick, if thats your question.

Edited by Team Leader, 11 July 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[wargonglok]

I am gonna use joystick, throttle, pedals (all saitek), and a handmade infrared head tracker

[Wrel]

It's a 2006 joystick. It has most of the newer features of modern ones, but I know it's a niche piece of hardware so I didn't imagine they advanced much since then.

[wargonglok]

And a mic of course, this game is gonna be a sim so my flight sim kit should work.

[NWHHarrier]

Check out the hardware forums or search these boards for Thomas Hogarth's joystick roundup and review. nothing about MWO specifically there but the stick reviews might help out given your stick type.

As far as your concern, I honestly believe that anyone can be a pro aiming with a stick if they work at it.

[wargonglok]

Some of the new ones are amazing. Mine is like a 2009 or 2010 so eventually i will upgrade but for now Im fine

Play skyrim with you joystick, if you can use a bow with your joystick then it is more than good enough for mwo i would think

[Project_Mercy]

Joysticks are not designed to make radical and precise movements. They mirror the controls you find in modern aircraft where radical movements get you killed.

If the arms track as fast as a mouse, then the mouse will always be superior, and joystick usage will be low. if the arms have to "catch up" with the mouse (or, track at joystick speeds) then the joystick will be fine.

We had these discussions a lot a while back. PGI will have either done it, or not. If they haven't done it though, then the Artemis will never get made, because nobody's going to buy it, so you don't have to worry about using it.

[Wrel]

I guess my issue was the fact that the lower portion of the joystick is the spring/cone style that forces the cone down, keeping the stick centered. That requires you to use a bit more force to pop the stick out of the dead zone and start to crunch up the spring. Once you're out of that zone, it requires less force and you have better control. But say I aim, and I over aim a tad. Moving it back through the center, clunking the spring out, then back down to re-center, it's clunky as all hell. Maybe if there was a fluid-motion joystick that didn't have the clunk when you crossed the 0,0 point. I believe some of the more expensive Thustmaster stick have a fluid-motion style, but those are like $600.

@NWH: Thanks, I'll search for that.

[Saxophonist]

Well, I'm planning on using a 2010 model stick. If my LRM aim is off then... I'll stick with my mouse. I sure hope not though.

[Drop Bear]

i would have thought that instead of a spring they would have developed a ball and socket design where the end of the ball has a laser coming out the end that hits receptors so that as you move it around the receptor that is activated will corispond with how it moves. this would also help with fluidity as there would be no spring to get stuck. (maybe use a gel or a fluid to keep ball from rubbing on socket?) just a thought.

[Noahbash]

Wrel, on 11 July 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Sadly, with the end of the 90's came the end of most of those genres, and with them, the retirement of the joystick.

IL-2 Sturmovik would like to have a word with you...

The joystick has progressed, not regressed, in the last decade.

[NWHHarrier]

Wrel I have EXACTLY the same issue. Mine is a saitek x45 and uses the same "spring and plate" center mechanism. Especially when I tilt the stick left with light pressure it will not budge at all. The centering plate sticks to the little plastic ring that it rests on top of; fixes for this include silicone based lubricant (not petroleum based like Vaseline which will ruin plastic) to zip tying two coils of the spring together to reduce pressure on the plate, to taking a piece of glossy cardboard (playing card, cereal box) and cutting it into a circle with hole in middle, placing it between plate and lower ring base.

I like my stick but between it's design, and what I expect will be an inherent disadvantage vs mouse, I'm gonna run a lot of tests and see if I can get it going. if not, definitely check out that stick thread I mentioned there is sole great info there.

edited for stupid smartphone errors

Edited by NWHHarrier, 11 July 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Wrel]

Looking at some options, it seems that force-feedback joysticks don't have the spring/cone style stick bases. That makes sense, as the rigidity of the stick would be provided by the force-feedback motors instead of a manual spring. Perhaps I'll check around on some of those, like the Logitech G940 and see if they are more of a fluid stick.

Noahbash, on 11 July 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

IL-2 Sturmovik would like to have a word with you...

I said *most* of those genres came to an end.

But no, I get your point. That's why I asked. The spring centering seems so out-dated, I didn't know if there was a better option. it seems that any of the $250+ sticks that have force feedback might be a better option to avoid the deadzone clunk.

[machinegunn1]

i use an attack 3 joystick and that has worked well for me maybe you should give that one a go

[Jekrump]

Heck, I used the logitech extreme 3d pro back in 05 and never had a serious problem you're describing. Idk, I liked it for mw4 but for 3 I used a mouse for the finer aim.

[Mechteric]

LRM locks in MW4 are really hard anyway because they not only take a pretty long time (unless you got Artemis and BAP), but they also have zero tolerance for if your aim goes off target and lose your lock progress. Besides that it can depend on your joystick, for instance I find the Logitech Extreme 3D pro to be too springy/sensitive and therefore makes it harder to hit anything for me anyway.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 11 July 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Khan Warlock Kell]

I have used a joystick in previous incarnations of Mech warrior and never had much of a problem, I think its all in what you get used too. The one area in mercs where a mouse was a distinct advantage was in jump sniping. But i managed and like to think i excelled with a joystick.