56 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

I have been thinking about this, and besides just adding damage, which then just turns them into any ol weapons..

Making mechs hot, has always been lore, but in this game, i think it might be way to easy to abuse.. Though, perhaps, they only would add a certain amount of heat, or only allowed to use um for short times, with very long cool downs? I dunno..



But the one thought that i did have for um which might work... what about Crits on heat sinks, though armor.. So unlike most weapons which only crit after armor is lost right? Or is the just just tons lower? Heat sinks could do crits and break a heat sink, before armor is lost. The idea being, hold a flamer on a mech for a certain length of time, and if a heat sink is in that area, it would have a % chance to fail, and break.

So in a way, the flamer mech could be effecting the cooling abilities of another mech, but in effect could make it less efficient over time

balance would be how long duration, and how often crit.. ect.. the short range of flamers would at least keep them only to the shortest ranged brawlers.. and maybe give a reason to get the big guns into brawl range!


thoughts? And if not this.. what would you do?

[Alistair Winter]

Hard to say, without know what the problem is right now. I've always assumed that it was the stress of the servers from having people running continuously firing hitscan weapons over long periods of time. I imagine that there's too much traffic when you've got light and medium mechs firing 8+ flamers continuously for minutes at a time.

So maybe their solution will be to turn flamers into pulse laser-like weapons with short squirts instead of long sprays.

[Jun Watarase]

Well first i would put someone other than paul in charge of balance...

[FupDup]

Two paths are available:

A. Focus on the "utility" role, increase heat on target drastically and maybe add secondary things like lighting things on fire (if only MWO wouldn't explode from this).

B. Screw it and just jack up their damage, remove heat on target.

[JC Daxion]

Alistair Winter, on 12 December 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

Hard to say, without know what the problem is right now. I've always assumed that it was the stress of the servers from having people running continuously firing hitscan weapons over long periods of time. I imagine that there's too much traffic when you've got light and medium mechs firing 8+ flamers continuously for minutes at a time.

So maybe their solution will be to turn flamers into pulse laser-like weapons with short squirts instead of long sprays.

Well for one, I would make it so you could only mount a maximum of two... I forgot to add that part... Not sure how that would have to be coded though. as to me, that would make them much easier to balance a secondary effect.


But perhaps you are right about the hit scan.. But don't they just use the machine gun model? I am not sure.. but machine guns don't have issues.. granted you don't have 3-4 people railing machine guns that often.


But if that is the case.. Why not change both machine guns and flamers into Burst type weapons with cool downs.. I could see that being a lot of fun to use..

Flamers could use a Jet Jump like fuel meter.. when it runs out, you gotta wait for it to refill!

Edited by JC Daxion, 12 December 2015 - 10:12 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

They could just do what MW4 did and just have it fire a flame burst that hits a mech and lights it on fire in that area for a period of time to heat it up. Though even in that game they were pretty much a joke with their terrible range. You could overheat someone after awhile if you boated them, good luck killing them though.

Honestly though if I were making the flamers good in the current situation they are in I'd probably have them not have any exponential heat gen for the user, increase the damage per second, and allow them to do internal damage to the enemy after they have hit the max heat they can generate to the enemy.

Basically since they can't shut you down once you reach 90% heat they should at least do something, so doing overheat like damage wouldn't be too bad. Still a Nova with 12 small lasers would be better than a 12 flamer Nova, but at least the flamers would be more scary than laughable.

[JediPanther]

The only thing that would make flamers usable is if they did 60% less heat to the mech trying to use them. They are great if you want to over heat and shut down your own mech or over ride and suicide. I'd rather have a single machine gun and two tons mg ammo over a flamer any time. At least with the mg i'd do some damage to the enemy.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 12 December 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Two paths are available:

A. Focus on the "utility" role, increase heat on target drastically and maybe add secondary things like lighting things on fire (if only MWO wouldn't explode from this).

B. Screw it and just jack up their damage, remove heat on target.

And probably exponential heat GAIN as well.

Who cares if we get our first Heat Neutral weapon?
Right...The Nerfinator.

JC Daxion, on 12 December 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Well for one, I would make it so you could only mount a maximum of two... I forgot to add that part... Not sure how that would have to be coded though. as to me, that would make them much easier to balance a secondary effect.

That's easy, just a boolean of

if(flamerCount>2)
	ableToEquip=False

Or whatever PGI does.
Think of how HoverJets™ do it. They have a cap, if you exceed it, you can't mount any more. That part is a non-issue.

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But perhaps you are right about the hit scan.. But don't they just use the machine gun model? I am not sure.. but machine guns don't have issues.. granted you don't have 3-4 people railing machine guns that often.

It and the MG share the '-1.0' duration, being the only pair of constant fire weapons in the game, it makes sense.

Fun Fact: Hitscan used to break the game.
As in, literally cause the game instance to crash.
We had to ban Embers (when MGs sucked fewer balls) to finish some comp matches back in the da, because after the 4th crash it was taking too long.

Haven't put it to the test lately, but Lasers are less demanding due to the cooldown (and fewer Crit calculations? Likely marginal)

Quote

But if that is the case.. Why not change both machine guns and flamers into Burst type weapons with cool downs.. I could see that being a lot of fun to use..

I've seen a proposal of making the Flamer a 5 damage, x heat projectile weapon, which I fully support.
MGs, I guess so. As long as the damned CoF gets removed.

Edited by Mcgral18, 12 December 2015 - 10:20 PM.

[PerfectDuck]

Make them powerful, but not sustainable at such power. Think of a super soaker. At full strength, it blasts you good but then it starts to weaken in every aspect, damage heat and range. The cost for the user to still fire the flamer stays constant until it's pretty much not worth doing. Only by not firing it for a while will it slowly regain pressure back to full again. Balanced around this mechanic, they will be good for heating an enemy mech suddenly and might even be worth bringing but you can't rely on it alone.

Lore bonus for Firestarters? Faster flamer pressure recovery.

(Yes I understand that they're some kind of plasma weapon and not a traditional flamethrower in any sense, but as a gameplay mechanic what do you think?)

Edited by PerfectDuck, 12 December 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[Elizander]

Give the heat penalty a maximum cap. Let's say it lasts 30 seconds (just as an example).

One flamer burning you for 15 seconds can make it reach 30 seconds. 3 flamers burning you for 10 seconds makes it last 30 seconds. 10 flamers burning you for 3 seconds will make it last 30 seconds.

We can treat it like lava where you are constantly at some high threshold of heat (50%-90%) for the first (x) seconds then it slowly goes down. The heat scale penalty can depend on the debuff duration. 90% at 25-30 seconds, 80% at 20-25 seconds, 70% at 15-20 seconds and a faster drop from there.

I'd also extend flamer range but make it less effective at longer ranges, but still does something.

Edited by Elizander, 12 December 2015 - 11:54 PM.

[Black Fish]

This might sound a bit crazy, but how about changing them to omni-hardpoint? Or even be able to mount them without a hardpoint? If you limit their amout to 2 it might actually work, I mean they aren't really energy weapons right? They don't use energy from the engine they use fuel... and 1 ton ea would be a factor to consider... hmmmmm...

[Karl Marlow]

I saw an all flamer Executioner the other day. It was effective at putting me out of the fight and he did, eventually, manage to burn out all my weapons. He would have killed me too if the rest of my team hadnt finished blowing up all the other enemy mechs and came back to deal with him. I swear if he had 60 more seconds of applying those flamers to me I would have been...toast.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Black Fish, on 13 December 2015 - 12:02 AM, said:

This might sound a bit crazy, but how about changing them to omni-hardpoint? Or even be able to mount them without a hardpoint? If you limit their amout to 2 it might actually work, I mean they aren't really energy weapons right? They don't use energy from the engine they use fuel... and 1 ton ea would be a factor to consider... hmmmmm...

They actually do use energy from the engine, not fuel. The flamers, as deceptive as their name may be, vent plasma from the mech's fusion engine.

[Karl Marlow]

Dakota1000, on 13 December 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

They actually do use energy from the engine, not fuel. The flamers, as deceptive as their name may be, vent plasma from the mech's fusion engine.

Yeah. Thats why in TT there is a distinction between flamers and Vehicle flamers. The vehicles actually use fuel and IIRC have ammo for them

[DaZur]

Two-words... "Flammable Gel".

You hose a mech down with the flamer and it continues to burn for "x" amount of time...

It's a gift that keeps on giving.

[DAYLEET]

I would make flamers raise your own heat DISSIPATION while active and lower the enemy heat dissipation. You dont actualy increase their heat you just make them less efficient and you cant sink a lot of heat without sacrificing a lot of hard point.

More flamers shot at the same time would increase the benefit so one woudlnt be any use unless youre a light and an assault wouldnt be able to sink large amount or heat even when sacrificing all its energy point. Flamers shot unchained would gain no benefit.

They would do no actual damage.

Edited by DAYLEET, 13 December 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Set it to same properties as MG, so that MG+Flamer compliment eachother on massive critseeks.
1.0 dps, and MG needs this as well.

120 meters min/max range.
Needs an impact effect like AC's have so it blinds the target when he's facing you.
Convergence? Don't know, as long as it has this cone of fire that it does, it seems to work fine as is.

Maybe needs to have extra effects to disable or severely punish the target's ability to see in IRNV or FLIR vision modes, add in some kind of duration effect that knocks out vision mode use with static for X amount of time?

Removal of the heat multiplier over time, or reduction on the cap.

High crit vs internal/weapons/equipment, double crit for ammunition explosion/destruction rolls (cookoffs).

I think at this point, DPS becomes more important than the heat transfer effect.

To be honest though, simply removing the self heat multiplier would do the most for the flamer.
Its already capped to 90% transfer on enemy, so they can never be shutdown with flamers alone, so its a non issue.

[Kissamies]

I'd make them have a guaranteed ammo explosion crit if they hit a stripped location with ammo on it.

[monk]

Reposting since this topic comes up regularly. How about a fun new toy that does something useful. While recognizing that being "stun locked" is probably the least fun thing that can ever happen in a game, we can still make flamers a tactical and potential viable weapon option.

- method 1. Flamers fire a burst of plasma. This plasma burns and emits smoke on whatever it hits. If it hits a mech, the amount of plasma making contact will determine how much heat is generated to the enemy mech. This heat is applied in two ways. It causes a small spike while being hit (small spike...small), but the greater effect is that burning plasma on a mech causes heat dissipation issues. If you get a lot on you, you'll have a hard time cooling off until it eventually dissipates. Plasma on enemy mechs or the field (buildings, ground, etc.) will continue to burn and emit smoke until it cools, allowing it to be used for tactical maneuvers as well (a real point to thermal vision finally?). The more plasma the more heat. Flamers apply minimal heat to the mech using them. Plasma bursts can be up to 2 seconds. Flamers have a cooldown of 20 seconds. If a flamer is destroyed whilst firing there is a high chance it will explode causing damage to the host mech equivalent to an AC5 shell exploding (modifying this to be more like the large flamer rules). Flamers can shut down an enemy mech - there is no heat cap limit (as there is now) for flamers, however, due to the extremely long cooldown period, the ability for a single mech to "stun-lock" an enemy is minimized. Water will near instantly cool burning plasma, but will cause a steam cloud. Entering water almost immediately cools down the burning plasma.

- method 2. Same as method 1, except flamers also use ammo and can be fired continuously with no need to wait for cooldowns (i.e. treat them more like heavy flamers). Ammo is carefully adjusted to help prevent endless flamer heat spam, though as it's a dissipation affecting weapon, the problem of stun-locking mechs becomes less of an issue.

Edited by monk, 13 December 2015 - 01:31 AM.

[kapusta11]

From sarna:

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Introduced in 2025, the standard Flamer taps into a BattleMech's reactor to produce heat in the form of a plasma release^. An extremely short-ranged weapon, the Flamer is devastating against infantry, however damage done against other 'Mechs and vehicles is negligible, though it can raise the enemy unit's heat levels. The Flamer is also often used to set ambient objects such as trees aflame, making it useful for burning forests or cities in order to slow the enemy down or cover friendly movements. A clear example of such weapon usage in a 'Mech is the Firestarter BattleMech.

- Make flamers generate patches of burning ground
- Standing on burning groud generates heat
- Multiple flamers increase the time those patches last and heat they generate.
- Cap the heat from external sources so that it cannot be higher than 2 heat per second making 4-6 flamers a decent option but anything more will have no effect.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 December 2015 - 12:59 AM.