72 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

Kjudoon, on 13 December 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

I have hope. That is why i keep circling.

Like a bloody vulture.

[Kjudoon]

At times at times. Although sometimes i feel like a Specter keeping guns left... Or right.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Ragingdemon, on 13 December 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

As I'm sure most of you know if you take LRM's on a light mech they really don't have a roll, because of the tonnage, face time, ammo, maintaining target lock, etc. more so for IS mechs than clan. But I had an pretty rough idea to make LRM's more viable but not exploitable.

P.s. This is to just get the idea across.

For starters lets say we have a Raven who wants to run missiles. Typically light mechs just want to poke, move, poke, while exposing your self as little as possible so I propose LRM weapon specific quirks unique to weight class and variant.

So the Raven decides to run ML and 2 LRM 5's, to make LRM's not dead weight allow light mechs to fire LRM's without having to maintain your cursor on the box.

This change could also be applicable to higher weight class mechs(especially the missile variants) but to avoid another LRM apocalypse this new target retention is primarily for light mechs.

Please feel free to add to this idea because I would love to see light mechs be viable with LRM builds!

TL;DR Allow Lights and missile variant mechs to fire without maintaining your cursor on a target.

Step 1: take JR7-D and 4ML and 2 LRM5 and a bit of ammo. S

Step 2: Use LRMs like longish range streaks against the few mechs you can't out run and to scare enemies into hunkering down with supressing fire.

Step 3: Win games from time to time.

Jenner IIC can of course use 1 CLRM 15 or 2cLRM10 instead

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 14 December 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I've been running 2xLRM10 on my RVN-3L lately. I have 2xLRM5 on a Locust, but that's mostly a joke build. The RVN-3L with 2xLRM10 does alright though.

I don't mind ammo quirks, personally. I think the Shadow Cat needs ammo quirks to carry the gauss rifle effectively. (Please don't post stories about the time you did 800 dmg in your Gauss SHC, I know it can be done. That's not the point)

Improved missile speed would be an easier fix than changing the target lock mechanism. Together with ammo quirk, this would make a big difference.

I don't think it's going to happen tho. This is a non-issue for PGI.

[El Bandito]

adamts01, on 13 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

There's no doubt that assaults can make it rain pain worse than anything else. No question about it. But, in solo que, there's a 4 in 5 chance they're going to get out damaged by a Mist Lynx. Slow boats need spotters to be consistent.

My 8R can get its own locks and do more damage than most. Assault LRM boats are far from impotent in Solo-Q. Who cares about a Mist Lynx? The guy next to me can eat it up.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 December 2015 - 03:22 AM.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 14 December 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

My 8R can get its own locks and do more damage than most. Assault LRM boats are far from impotent in Solo-Q. Who cares about a Mist Lynx? The guy next to me can eat it up.

There are exceptions. Awesome for you that you do well in your LRM assault. Personally, I'm not afraid of any LRM assault with any single one of my mechs. The do seem to eat plenty of noobs though.

[ZenFool]

I prefer lrms on more mobile platforms. The ability to reposition is what makes them so much fun. My heavies and assaults all dutifully have their lasers and acs.
I get the feeling this thread is going to go funky come patch day. People won't be talking about buffing light lrm carriers, quite the opposite. As for me, despite my best efforts to laugh at my retooled huginn, I can only shake my head in delight.

[Nightmare1]

Why would you even bother putting LRMs on a Light? That's a waste of a Mech unless you're planning to troll.

[Kjudoon]

Nightmare1, on 14 December 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Why would you even bother putting LRMs on a Light? That's a waste of a Mech unless you're planning to troll.

Because sometimes they're better than all other missile weapons for what you're doing and your desired gameplay. And not all choices of bad (unfairly nerfed) weapons is because you're a troll. They can be functional. Not everything has to be meta.

You see, you don't need all the equipment to play hockey and have a great time. You can play with just a puck and a stick. Will it be 'professional grade'? no. But that's not the point. watching professionals is more fun than playing like professionals.

The same goes true for LRM lights when you don't play with tryhard munchkins who don't know how to just have fun playing sloppy and friendly.

Edited by Kjudoon, 14 December 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

To me, Ammo based lights, need an ammo quirk... +50 or 100% ammo

That makes no sense. The whole reason its a light is because it cant fit lots of ammo. If you start giving lights massive ammo quirks then theres no reason to play missile mediums like the trebuchet. Because a light can just do it better. So no I dont agree with that at all... the whole downside of a light mech is lack of tonnage, they shouldnt get freebie tonnage handouts.

Not every weight class is meant to use LRMs. Lights arnt meant to use LRMs. Lights are meant to use SRMs.

The biggest problem with SRM brawling in a light though is that it gets you killed faster than anything. Mechs like the commando die in one or two laser vomit volleys.... because weapon balance is still a farce for laser weapons.

Aside from clan lasers still not being balanced, 12v12 and all the deathballing are also a problem. Lights work best when theyre able to attack isolated enemy mechs but deathballing defeats the whole point of lights. For lights to excel we need gamemodes that discourage deathballing and force teams to split up more... because thats the environment lights need to be able to thrive.

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2015 - 08:33 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Nightmare1, on 14 December 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Why would you even bother putting LRMs on a Light? That's a waste of a Mech unless you're planning to troll.

It's not Just LRM's on lights.. Its any ammo based weapon on the IS side... Ravens to me are the only lights that can use SRM's fairly well.. the 30 ton and under have a lot of trouble.. Even a single UAC5 on a spider has issues.

Give lights specific ammo+ quirks.. Like, hugging i'd say doesn't need SRM boost IMO, but maybe an AC-2 bonus. Maybe the 2x or 4X get an LRM and SRM boost, commando's definatly need an SRM boost.. spiders, maybe ac2 or Ac5 or UAC boost.. ect


But not, not just troll, LRM10 or 15 on a raven can work fairly well with energy back up.. and so much more fun than that boring double LL peak and poke play.. but i guess to each his own.. I know i've pulled some really nice games with LRM15+4ML's

Khobai, on 14 December 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

That makes no sense. The whole reason its a light is because it cant fit lots of ammo. If you start giving lights massive ammo quirks then theres no reason to play missile mediums like the trebuchet. Because a light can just do it better. So no I dont agree with that at all... the whole downside of a light mech is lack of tonnage, they shouldnt get freebie tonnage handouts.

Honestly you are wrong about the lights, and it could be balanced... Case in point...

The commando 2D which i run with 3X SRM2's... the 2D i max out around 500-600.. the Deaths kneel a great match is 700-900 but can break 1k+ a number that you just can't hit in the 2D or 3A, and that is because of ammo limitations, nothing else.. Heck a spider with 2 medium pulse lasers can out damage any of the missile based commandos.. with 2 messily lasers.. which is using less weight than a pair of launchers and a ton of ammo... How does this make any since at all?

This says to me, there is an issue with ammo based lights Period.. and upping ammo for all mechs, could easily screw up balance on larger mechs, which is why the quirk system could be a great way to do it.

Do you have issues with energy heat reduction quirks?? thats free tonnage, so is range.. You are saving weight by not adding more heat sinks.. Or buy using normal lasers over ER, which means less tonnage, as you don't need as many heat sinks.. again FREE TONNAGE.

with that reasoning why would you play an HBK 4p, when you can break 1k damage in a firestarter for example..

Adding +100 rounds to a commando for instance.. (this would be 50%) if you were running 2 tons as in the example bellow. This is Not going to replace playing any medium missile mech period.. You would go from 33 shots, to 50.. Hardly a huge difference, but it would help a decent amount adding the potential for 180 more damage.. Something the deaths kneel for example only would need 8 alphas' to match.. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...23ac3a035e41f69


I do have to ask, how often do you play ammo based lights, and please post the builds.. Cause if you do play um and don't see an issue with many of them.. I really wonder what those great builds are..

Edited by JC Daxion, 14 December 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[InspectorG]

Ragingdemon, on 13 December 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

TL;DR Allow Lights and missile variant mechs to fire without maintaining your cursor on a target.

Only way to make crappy LRMs work for tiny lights would be to reduce convergence to like 0.5m ensuring all CT shots.

Even then i dont see a Commando/Locust having enough ammo to be worthwhile.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Ragingdemon, on 13 December 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

No, really, read the meme.

[JC Daxion]

InspectorG, on 14 December 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

Even then i dont see a Commando/Locust having enough ammo to be worthwhile.

You know, that SRM4's and LRM5's are the same weight.. and SRM4's are a very common used launcher on a commando 4A.. and you kinda make my point, why they need an ammo quirk... You can't run um with enough ammo to make um worth while..

In the days of 8v8 there were not really issues.. But having to kill 4 more mechs, and often they are heavies, or those damn dires.. which take for ever to chew through all that armor.. Between the spread, and lack of ammo it makes the mechs under powered. There is a reason why you don't see the 2A or 2D often.. and its not because its a bad mech.. it just lacks ammo, and that can be fixed through quirks..

unless of course you are in the group that thinks all lights should just Boat lasers...

[InspectorG]

JC Daxion, on 14 December 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

unless of course you are in the group that thinks all lights should just Boat lasers...

Im not against ammo quirks per se, i can separate game balance from reality... just not sure thats the fix.

BUT it does have a problem in that more ammo = more ammo explosions on a mech with little HP.

IMO, i would fix Flamers/ MG/NARC/TAG for lights.

Other half is BT had LRM/SRM lights because most mechs didnt run full armor(and not at double MWO value) and the Crit system was different.
Commandos with SRMs and 2 tons ammo were crit finders. Locust with 2 LRM5 and 1-2 tons ammo was the same. Or was anti-vehicle/whatever.

[JC Daxion]

InspectorG, on 14 December 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

Im not against ammo quirks per se, i can separate game balance from reality... just not sure thats the fix.

BUT it does have a problem in that more ammo = more ammo explosions on a mech with little HP.

IMO, i would fix Flamers/ MG/NARC/TAG for lights.

Other half is BT had LRM/SRM lights because most mechs didnt run full armor(and not at double MWO value) and the Crit system was different.
Commandos with SRMs and 2 tons ammo were crit finders. Locust with 2 LRM5 and 1-2 tons ammo was the same. Or was anti-vehicle/whatever.

well.. fixing all that stuff would be nice too..

I get what you are saying about ammo explosions,, But honestly right now, i would rather take my chances.. It's better than running out.

also, the higher crit chance from a light, could be interesting.. the idea being you get in close and can target parts more precise as you are just shooting a couple missiles at a certain location?

Like i was saying in a previous post, in the 8v8 world it was not such an issue, but 12v12, and forget about CW.. while i do run some ammo mechs in that, they are never lights. I just really wan't my 2D and 3A to be viable again for entire matches,, Not just screwing around at the start trying to bait people and such, then finish off the game when everyone gets red. verse playing my death's Kneel, which i can keep on the pressure the whole game..

I'm not really sure what the real answer is.. But adding ammo would be nice to try at least.. see if if brings out more ammo based lights. But at the same time, i wouldn't want to over power something like the huggin, which already can bring massive amounts of pain with i'ts pair of machine gun SRM's

Edited by JC Daxion, 15 December 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[Nightmare1]

JC Daxion, on 14 December 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

It's not Just LRM's on lights.. Its any ammo based weapon on the IS side... Ravens to me are the only lights that can use SRM's fairly well.. the 30 ton and under have a lot of trouble.. Even a single UAC5 on a spider has issues.

Give lights specific ammo+ quirks.. Like, hugging i'd say doesn't need SRM boost IMO, but maybe an AC-2 bonus. Maybe the 2x or 4X get an LRM and SRM boost, commando's definatly need an SRM boost.. spiders, maybe ac2 or Ac5 or UAC boost.. ect


But not, not just troll, LRM10 or 15 on a raven can work fairly well with energy back up.. and so much more fun than that boring double LL peak and poke play.. but i guess to each his own.. I know i've pulled some really nice games with LRM15+4ML's

Right, I understand all that as someone who plays missile variant Lights (COM and LCT come to mind especially). I'm just saying that, given the tonnage restrictions on Lights, there's no sense in putting an LRM system on one. No amount of quirking can really make up for the weight restrictions because at the end of the day, no matter how fast your missile fly, how quickly you can fire them, how far they can reach, how tight they can cluster, or how little heat they generate, you are still handicapped by the tonnage limit itself.

That is why I say that LRM Lights are trolls. They are fun trolls; don't mistake me! They are still trolls though because they don't have the ammo or armor to really be effective.

Since SRM and Streak systems are a bit more viable for Lights, I would like to see additional quirks for those instead of for LRMs. I feel that LRM quirks are a waste of space on Lights, whereas the SRM and Streak quirks would go a long ways towards making missile boating Lights more functional.

In the end, a single LRM 5 launcher may weigh the same as two SRM 2 launchers, but you won't have enough LRM ammo to really be viable while those twin SRM 2 launchers will definitely have the ammo needed. We also need to ask ourselves, "Do we really want superquirked LRM Lights running around?" Seriously, Lights do not typically have the roll of an LRM boat. Some, like the Owens, are designed with that in mind, but most Lights weren't. Trying to make them into something they aren't is great for trolling and just fun, but trying to quirk them to change the very nature and purpose of the Mech is ridiculous.

A better way to answer the problem for people who do want to run LRM Lights, would be to call for an increase to the ammo per ton for LRMs. That would help all LRM boats and definitely go a long way towards making Lights more viable as LRM carriers, especially for when we start seeing Mechs such as the Owens.

[Nightmare1]

Kjudoon, on 14 December 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

Unless you're planning to troll.

There, fixed. We actually agree, by the way. I love troll Mechs and have quite a few of them. Hence, that's why I'm saying that there's no point unless you want to troll. The LRM Locust is hilarious and a lot of fun, as is the LRM Raven. Simply because you can do it though, doesn't mean that you should. Lights, with the exception of a few chassis like the Owens, are not meant to be LRM boats. Demanding quirks so that you can play them as such is senseless; that's not the point of the chassis. It would be better to quirk the chassis to fit its roletype to help with role warfare.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with running an LRM Light. I didn't mean to give you that impression. I'm just saying, let's be realistic here. It would be more reasonable to have an ammo per ton increase for LRMs as a weapon system up to 200, rather than to superquirk Light Mechs to become beastly LRM launchers with legs.

[0bsidion]

Ragingdemon, on 13 December 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

As I'm sure most of you know if you take LRM's on a light mech they really don't have a roll, because of the tonnage, face time, ammo, maintaining target lock, etc. more so for IS mechs than clan. But I had an pretty rough idea to make LRM's more viable but not exploitable.

P.s. This is to just get the idea across.

For starters lets say we have a Raven who wants to run missiles. Typically light mechs just want to poke, move, poke, while exposing your self as little as possible so I propose LRM weapon specific quirks unique to weight class and variant.

So the Raven decides to run ML and 2 LRM 5's, to make LRM's not dead weight allow light mechs to fire LRM's without having to maintain your cursor on the box.

This change could also be applicable to higher weight class mechs(especially the missile variants) but to avoid another LRM apocalypse this new target retention is primarily for light mechs.

Please feel free to add to this idea because I would love to see light mechs be viable with LRM builds!

TL;DR Allow Lights and missile variant mechs to fire without maintaining your cursor on a target.

Well, as you can see from this thread, the whole idea of LRMs on a light is a hard sell. As far as them being viable, they already are. Optimal? Not so much.

I've run LRMs on light mechs for quite some time, and it can work. It was pretty entertaining running a LRM 15 rack back before the 3L Raven had dynamic missile hardpoints. Replace the NARC with that LRM 15 and you'd fire those 15 missiles one at a time. By the time it finished it was ready to fire again. It wasn't as effective as I'd hoped but it was entertaining.

Anyway, I know from experience 2 LRM 5 racks are underestimated. They've got a nice RoF and very little spread, even before the recent spread buffs. Before an enemies' armor is stripped they're good for suppression. After, they can be deadly if you catch them out of cover.

All that said, you're not likely to convince most people here to even consider LRMs on lights when laser vomit is so much more efficient. It's hard to blame them, with the limited tonnage available, lasers are the best bang for your buck.

Edited by 0bsidion, 15 December 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Even then i dont see a Commando/Locust having enough ammo to be worthwhile.

again the problem is 12v12. they need to make assault/conquest/skirmish 8v8 again (respawn gamemodes should remain 12v12 though). they went from 8v8 to 12v12, increasing the number of enemies by 50%, without also giving ammo a 50% increase, so of course ammo based weapons got screwed because of that.

but also 12v12 is problematic for lights because of deathballing, its hard for lights to even engage an enemy mech without getting completely obliterated by focus fired laser spam. They need to bring back 8v8 to reduce deathballing so lights are better able to thrive and perform their intended role.

8v8 fixes nearly all the problems lights are having and would help restore their role in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2015 - 10:02 AM.