57 replies to this topic

[Ted Wayz]

For me the biggest announcement of the night was all the things that are not scheduled to be worked on. Things this community wants. For Russ it was the 100k tournament.

But riddle me this Russ, how can you have a viable e-sport without roles? This isn't CS and you won't have mechs sitting in doorways waiting for a body to appear in the slight sliver of light down an alleyway. So how can MWO be a viable e-sport game without roles?

The sad thing is Battletech, the game MWO is loosely based on (and that is being generous), roles meant everything. PGI was handed a simple blueprint on how to design an e-sport game. But instead Russ is trying to make it look like other e-sport games, and IMHO not doing well.

So how about we have lights that function as lights and assaults that function as assaults instead of everything as DPS? The game as a whole would benefit.

Your opinion?

[Naelbis]

Russ needs to stick to running the overall company and hire someone else to run the game.

[Kraftwerkedup]

They need to Kickstarter up 1.5 million and hire Lars Gustavsson away from DICE's reserve pool of creative designers. He hasnt done much since 2013, but is soley responsible for Battlefield 2s "role warfare" which was excellent.

Thats about the only way I see "role warfare" ever existing in a meaningful way.

Someone who has experience doing it needs to be hired to do it.

There werent roles in PGIs hunting games, why on earth do they think they can deliver that, without Jordan? Bryan cant deliver that. Russ and Paul cant. Jordan is making "role warfare" for his own Battletech game....so...whose left?

Id honestly put Tina in charge of it over Russ and Paul.

That said, Esports wont catch on. Sure people will show up to win free money, because why wouldnt you. If you have 10.0 KDR, why not get some free cash from people throwing it at you?

But will people tune in to watch people play like they do CS? Of course not. Not only is the player base not big enough, but matches are incredibly boring to watch in 3rd person free cam.

"Oh the ball is clashing with the other ball. Good ridge poking. More good poking. See some poking there? Yeah more poking. OH A JUMP POKE. The balls are shifting. Shifting. Theres a kill! Annnnnd its over! Great match everyone"

No one wants to watch that for entertainment.

Watching TCAF and MS fight it out is like watching old people chase each other around in powered wheel chairs. Its hilarious and sad.

Its a hell of alot of fun to PLAY...but mind numbing to watch. Pros poke and scram. Watching two deathballs wiggle for minor tactical terrain advantage for 15 minutes poking each others shoulders is not going to garner a huge audience of rabid fans.

Take everything you imagine would make watching a mech battle in real life, and do the opposite of that. Thats what an actual comp on comp match is like.

Id rather listen to the TS channels like a radio broadcast. Thats considerably more entertaining.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 13 December 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

I agree about Lars. I would like to see many Battlefield staples make their way to this game. My favorite would be to add the hacker role from Hardline (not sure he had a hand in that one) as a mech commander role.

[Zolaz]

Soccer is more entertaining to watch than MWO.

[Aresye]

Ted Wayz, on 13 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

But riddle me this Russ, how can you have a viable e-sport without roles? This isn't CS and you won't have mechs sitting in doorways waiting for a body to appear in the slight sliver of light down an alleyway. So how can MWO be a viable e-sport game without roles?

Roles do exist...in competitive play.

That's what I love most about the anti-comp, casual mindset. You all complain about not having the very things that literally exist within arms reach, if you'd just pay attention to watch what's actually happening.

But no. Instead of observing light mechs actually doing scouting, or assault mechs working to position themselves perfectly for support fire, all you guys see is, "Ewww, they're all in meta mechs," or, "Oh look, a deathball, so original."

You want to see role warfare? Build yourself a competitive team for MRBC, RHoD, or any other league. Try pulling a deathball or using scouts as brawlers against even a moderately competent team, and you'll soon realize how important roles truly are.

[MauttyKoray]

Ted Wayz, on 13 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

For me the biggest announcement of the night was all the things that are not scheduled to be worked on. Things this community wants. For Russ it was the 100k tournament.

But riddle me this Russ, how can you have a viable e-sport without roles? This isn't CS and you won't have mechs sitting in doorways waiting for a body to appear in the slight sliver of light down an alleyway. So how can MWO be a viable e-sport game without roles?

The sad thing is Battletech, the game MWO is loosely based on (and that is being generous), roles meant everything. PGI was handed a simple blueprint on how to design an e-sport game. But instead Russ is trying to make it look like other e-sport games, and IMHO not doing well.

So how about we have lights that function as lights and assaults that function as assaults instead of everything as DPS? The game as a whole would benefit.

Your opinion?

The tournament crap just disappoints me. There's all this E-sport bullcrap talk and I thought we were over this. Now the ugly child rears its head again and they're having a tournament with a prize pool of $100,000?! Great to know why development is moving so slowly, that 100 grand could probably make a decent chunk of funding for some more development costs.

If they want to have E-sport focus at one point, sure whatever, but now isn't the time. When the game still needs heavy balancing from the rushed botching that occured post-IGP in a half assed attempt to balance the IS with Clans, there should not be any focus on a tournament with real money prizes.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Roles
1.Shooter

2.Target
?

[XX Sulla XX]

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 December 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Roles do exist...in competitive play.

That's what I love most about the anti-comp, casual mindset. You all complain about not having the very things that literally exist within arms reach, if you'd just pay attention to watch what's actually happening.

But no. Instead of observing light mechs actually doing scouting, or assault mechs working to position themselves perfectly for support fire, all you guys see is, "Ewww, they're all in meta mechs," or, "Oh look, a deathball, so original."

You want to see role warfare? Build yourself a competitive team for MRBC, RHoD, or any other league. Try pulling a deathball or using scouts as brawlers against even a moderately competent team, and you'll soon realize how important roles truly are.

I agree I think there are roles in MWO. The only thing I am not sure about is how watchable 12vs12 is. Maybe with better broadcasters it would be better.

[Elizander]

XX Sulla XX, on 13 December 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I agree I think there are roles in MWO. The only thing I am not sure about is how watchable 12vs12 is. Maybe with better broadcasters it would be better.

The observer UI for MWO is still quite bad for me (considering there haven't been any improvements).

The information the viewer is getting is minimal to non-existent.

[Zordicron]

Who is fronting this 100K worth of money? PGI? Or some other source?

[YueFei]

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 December 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Roles do exist...in competitive play.

That's what I love most about the anti-comp, casual mindset. You all complain about not having the very things that literally exist within arms reach, if you'd just pay attention to watch what's actually happening.

But no. Instead of observing light mechs actually doing scouting, or assault mechs working to position themselves perfectly for support fire, all you guys see is, "Ewww, they're all in meta mechs," or, "Oh look, a deathball, so original."

You want to see role warfare? Build yourself a competitive team for MRBC, RHoD, or any other league. Try pulling a deathball or using scouts as brawlers against even a moderately competent team, and you'll soon realize how important roles truly are.

Someone watching sandlot/backyard American Football:
"What the hell is going on, there are no roles, everyone just runs around like headless chickens waiting for one guy the throw the ball somewhere."

Whereas someone watching organized American Football gets a totally different experience, seeing various players in different roles. Hell, even different personnel packages on different plays.

[Ted Wayz]

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 December 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Roles do exist...in competitive play.

That's what I love most about the anti-comp, casual mindset. You all complain about not having the very things that literally exist within arms reach, if you'd just pay attention to watch what's actually happening.

But no. Instead of observing light mechs actually doing scouting, or assault mechs working to position themselves perfectly for support fire, all you guys see is, "Ewww, they're all in meta mechs," or, "Oh look, a deathball, so original."

You want to see role warfare? Build yourself a competitive team for MRBC, RHoD, or any other league. Try pulling a deathball or using scouts as brawlers against even a moderately competent team, and you'll soon realize how important roles truly are.

You are so funny. I have been on teams that wanted to be competitive. I have been in the Raven 3L providing ECM and marking targets since early days. I have been a unit commander directing traffic and marking targets.

The comps showed what they will run in the latest Tukayyid or were you asleep. They weren't clamoring to run IS. So yeah, expect a bunch of ECM clan mechs with lasers. Don't expect to see missiles.

So....what roles do non-ECM lights have in this game which there are ton of them? So what roles do missiles boats have in this game? How many brawlers do you think we will see? Have you heard of tanking in other games? Not in this one. Assaults will generally not be used by comp teams and have no role.

I can go on and on but it is tiring having to constantly explain things to you. Sorry you have been previously butthurt by my past posts and feel a need to reply even though you bring nothing to the table but "You should all believe I am a good player".

But feel free, I have time.

[Kraftwerkedup]

You just have to realize that you cant actually as a spectator, tell what roles people are playing, even when youve played with and against the comp teams.

Its totally fun to BE the assaults vying for support positions, the lights harassing, and the general "rope the enemy team into the position we want them to be in to make our move"

Its totally obscure and pointless to watch it.

Thats why alot of people look at pro teams and think "sandlot football", because thats exactly what it looks like. Its not like that, but thats what it looks like. Its boring as ****.

[Chuck Jager]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 13 December 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

Roles
1.Shooter

2.Target
?

How many time do I have to tell you Stempy.
I'm the pitcher and your the catcher.

[EgoSlayer]

MauttyKoray, on 13 December 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

The tournament crap just disappoints me. There's all this E-sport bullcrap talk and I thought we were over this. Now the ugly child rears its head again and they're having a tournament with a prize pool of $100,000?! Great to know why development is moving so slowly, that 100 grand could probably make a decent chunk of funding for some more development costs.

If they want to have E-sport focus at one point, sure whatever, but now isn't the time. When the game still needs heavy balancing from the rushed botching that occured post-IGP in a half assed attempt to balance the IS with Clans, there should not be any focus on a tournament with real money prizes.

You're assuming that $100,000 is taking away from development, when in reality its likely sponsors providing most, if not all, of that in the form of cash and merchandise, and PGI's contributions are likely in game things like Mech packs and or MC so their net spend will be pretty low.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 13 December 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[coe7]

Anyone saying that there is no role warfare in MWO, does not understand what the hell is going on at all on comp battlefield. Its filled with role warfare and especially on lights who do majority of brunt work on comp matches, ranging from scouting to flanking and taking down assaults.

Comp. matches are won and lost based on your teams light mech scouting and what lights people bring to comp matches are heavily based on need of scouting and how much scouting does the team want to do to execute the tactic. Choice of medium and heavy mechs are often done based on what you are planning to do with your assaults and assaults are selected on overall battle plan.

Competitive MWO, such as MRBC, RHoD and other leagues is 100% role warfare. Problem is not that there is no roles, problem is that jump from normal MWO to understand what goes on in a comp match is way too big. This is pretty obvious when you watch a newbie team such as PGI's own team get absolutely crushed in the lowest of all divisions when they actually face a comp team playing a rolewarfare based MWO match.

TLDR. OP is flat out wrong and does not know what the hell he is talking about.

[Alistair Winter]

EgoSlayer, on 13 December 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

You're assuming that $100,000 is taking away from development, when in reality its likely sponsors providing most, if not all, of that in the form of cash and merchandise, and PGI's contributions are likely in game things like Mech packs and or MC so their net spend will be pretty low.

I feel like there's a lot of assumptions going around on both sides of the fence.

[Alistair Winter]

coe7, on 13 December 2015 - 10:46 PM, said:

Anyone saying that there is no role warfare in MWO, does not understand what the hell is going on at all on comp battlefield.

This is pretty obvious when you watch a newbie team such as PGI's own team get absolutely crushed in the lowest of all divisions when they actually face a comp team playing a rolewarfare based MWO match.

TLDR. OP is flat out wrong and does not know what the hell he is talking about.

If role warfare isn't happening at any level of gameplay except the top 1% of players - the sort of players who have time to custom design mechs for a pre-determined gameplan and train together several times per week - then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.

If PGI's own team - the guys responsible for actually making the damn game - doesn't understand role warfare, then the game practically doesn't have role warfare.

To say there is zero role warfare in MWO is an exaggeration, but it's an acceptable one. There's a chasm of difference between MWO and F2P games like Armored Warfare, Star Conflict, etc, where you have role warfare even at the very lowest levels of gameplay, and everyone understands how it works after 1 hour of playing the game.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Its also a difference in terms.

Theres a big difference in systemic roles, supported by meaningful game mechanics, and defacto roles filed primarily because of limitations of the ruleset ala 3/3/3/3, drop decks, etc.

Then there are solo pilots who are "comp" as well.

So while there might be roles because you HAVE to take some light mechs, and those feel fun and solid to play at a high level, doesnt mean that A) people who are watching have any idea its like that, because it just looks like two deathballs surging at each other vying for position for 10 minutes, and B.) that meaningful "role warfare" as pitched over the years, exists.


You sure dont see LRMs at the top 1%.

Weth meh Vindicator Snipers and Brawlers lol.

I think theres plenty of people who are well versed with comp play, who find watching it pretty boring. I dont think that means they dont "understand" it.