64 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Antares102, on 14 December 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

Crazy idea incoming:
How about reducing ALL damage values by 80%?
AC5 would do only 1 damage then.
And please dont give me the lore argument. Many weapons including lasers and SRM already have their damage values fidled with.

You could easily make this lore friendly by adjusting the cooldown and rate of fire so that each weapon does its TT prescribed damage over 10 seconds,

[Antares102]

Hotthedd, on 14 December 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

You could easily make this lore friendly by adjusting the cooldown and rate of fire so that each weapon does its TT prescribed damage over 10 seconds,

Alphas would still be very high and could instakill one mech.
With reduced damage values and same cooldowns you simply CANNOT kill a mech in one blow even if 5 guys shoot one alpha at it.
Point is currently you can get alphas up to 100 (Mad Dog). If this was only 20 or even 10 then TTK would go up accordingly.

Edited by Antares102, 14 December 2015 - 05:34 AM.

[Midax]

Heat penalties would help a lot. Movement penalties can really punish a poorly planned alpha. You will twist slower and have a harder time rolling damage plus have a harder time taking cover.

[Hotthedd]

Antares102, on 14 December 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

Alphas would still be very high and could instakill one mech.
With reduced damage values and same cooldowns you simply CANNOT kill a mech in one blow even if 5 guys shoot one alpha at it.
Point is currently you can get alphas up to 100 (Mad Dog). If this was only 20 or even 10 then TTK would go up accordingly.

I think you misunderstand me.

Let's take your AC/5 at 80% reduction for example: It would do 1 point of damage per trigger pull, but could fire 5 times in 10 seconds. (Of course ammo would need to be increased per ton by the same 80%, and heat per trigger pull reduced) Therefore the Alpha strike would ALSO be one fifth as damaging. TTK goes up due to spread, but DPS remains the same.

Edited by Hotthedd, 14 December 2015 - 05:42 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

Hotthedd, on 14 December 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

You could easily make this lore friendly by adjusting the cooldown and rate of fire so that each weapon does its TT prescribed damage over 10 seconds,

That's the whole problem we have. Why does a ppc make 10 dmg with a 4(?) sec. cooldown? In Battletech it does 10 dmg but all weapons have a 10(!) sec. cooldown. If you would translate it correctly to MWO it should only dmg for 4 dmg by 4 sec. cooldown. It could be so easy to increase the ttk.

And we could easily remove the doubling armor und buffed structure quirks because even without them the ttk would increase. All what u need for this is changing some numbers. O.o

Edited by Steve Pryde, 14 December 2015 - 05:52 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Steve Pryde, on 14 December 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

That's the whole problem we have. Why does a ppc make 10 dmg with a 4(?) sec. cooldown? In Battletech it does 10 dmg but all weapons have a 10(!) sec. cooldown. If you would translate it correctly to MWO it should only dmg for 4 dmg by 4 sec. cooldown. It could be so easy to increase the ttk.

And we could easily remove the doubling armor und buffed structure quirks because even without them the ttk would increase. All what u need for this is changing some numbers. O.o

Why? Bad game design. The developers played MW2, MW3, and MW4 and kept the worst part of those PvE games. Sean Lang likes AlphaStrikeWarrior, so MW:O will always be AlphaStrikeWarrior.

...unless your question was rhetorical.

[adamts01]

UncleTouchy, on 14 December 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Ghost heat in its current values work best on paper.
How the idea of ghost heat was implemented in this game, dosent work.

1: Lower heat cap significantly.
2: Increase heatsink(true/poor) dissipation.

Ghost heat did work, there aren't 14 spl novas running around with 84 point alphas.

Lowering the heatscale and increasing cooling helped my 61 point laser vomit timby. Even if they cut it in half I could still alpha and would have an even higher dps.

Even cut in half, the cheetah could still alpha, and with increased cooling it could actually sustain that for a good long while.

I'm all for changing things up, but it's not so simple.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Dumbest idea I've heard in a while OP. Gratz.

[GorlockTheDestroyer]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Ghost heat did work, there aren't 14 spl novas running around with 84 point alphas.

Lowering the heatscale and increasing cooling helped my 61 point laser vomit timby. Even if they cut it in half I could still alpha and would have an even higher dps.

Even cut in half, the cheetah could still alpha, and with increased cooling it could actually sustain that for a good long while.

I'm all for changing things up, but it's not so simple.

Heat cap is not heat scale.
Heat scale is ghost heat.

So your timby comment, though true in that is was helped(very little), is wrong in how you've applied it here.

The issue with your cheetah comment is also wrong as you've misinterpreted heat scale vs heat cap.
Yes the cheetah can alpha and with a lower heat cap would fill his heat bar up to a significant number. Forcing him to bug out rather than hang around and alpha away at will.

Also having a simple idea to form a foundation, then going chassis variant specific in quirks, helps the bulk of mechs first. For those mechs that need to alpha to be viable on the battle field, quirks should be applied, such as certain light mechs.

[Tarl Cabot]

Steve Pryde, on 14 December 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

That's the whole problem we have. Why does a ppc make 10 dmg with a 4(?) sec. cooldown? In Battletech it does 10 dmg but all weapons have a 10(!) sec. cooldown. If you would translate it correctly to MWO it should only dmg for 4 dmg by 4 sec. cooldown. It could be so easy to increase the ttk.

And we could easily remove the doubling armor and buffed structure quirks because even without them the ttk would increase. All what u need for this is changing some numbers. O.o

Review Solaris 7 (2.5sec rounds vs BT 10sec rounds) documentation. The large energy weapons had longer cooldown timers (delays) of 5 to 7.5 sec, ballistics 2.5-5 sec (except AC2), SRM 2.5sec, LRM 5sec.

There would also been to be a hard cap on Heatscale. If heatsinks were to continue to have an effect on the cap, it should be a percentage, around 50% or less. PGI has demonstrated the HS can have separate components.

Then the heat scale would need to have more than the max threshold before action is taken, thresholds where a mech starts slowing down, a similar movement effect such as the current C-XL exhibits after losing a side torso but in increments 20/40/60/100 or 33/66/100

As for ghost heat, if still needed, remove the larger bang and divide it up into increments on the weapons themselves when firing more than one weapon, adding 10%, increasing as the damage potential increases (placeholder). C-ERML: 1= 6heat / fire 2 = 12+1.2=13.2 heat each, fire 3 = 18+1.8 = 19.8 heat each

Below is from another thread, showing how Solaris workup would affect the firing of an ERPPC on its terms.

Spoiler

Tarl Cabot, on 12 December 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...cs/page__st__20

For TT based on 10sec rounds is one thing, but the closest you will get to it is the Solaris VII instead of the default BT settings. And do not forget, whether it be TT or SVII, there are no additional heat threshold being used.





Hellstar 4ERPPC / 30 DHS / max 64kph (4/6 hex speed)

Solaris VII 2.5sec rounds
120 heat cap (4*2.5=10sec)
2pt/DHS
30DHS equipped
60 cooling pts
60 Heat per ERPPC (15 heat pts ERPPC * 4 multiplier/same as heat scale)
3 Delay (Fire Round 1, Rd2/Rd3/Rd4, Fire Rd5)
(only Heatscale in effect is shutdown, as per MWO)

Hellstar runs 6 hexes
2pts heat running
Rd1 - Fire 3 ERPPC
Heat spikes to 182pts (180+2)
30 DHS cools mech to 122 at end of Rd1/shutdown

Rd 2 no action, heat drops to 62 at end of Rd2

Rd 3 mech starts up and runs another 6 hexes
2pts heat
Heat scale at 64pts
Heat scale drops to 4pts at end of Rd 3.

Rd 4 mech still running, ERPPC will be ready next Rd
2pts heat
Heat at 0pts at end of Rd4

***********************************
Solaris VII 2.5sec rounds but using MWO cooldown timer for ERPPC - 2delay/round (5secs

120 heat cap (4*2.5=10sec)
2pt/DHS
30DHS equipped
60 cooling pts
60 Heat per ERPPC (15 heat pts ERPPC * 4 multiplier/same as heat scale)
2 Delay MWO (Fire Round 1, Rd2/Rd3, Fire Rd4)
(only Heatscale in effect is shutdown, as per MWO)

Hellstar runs 6 hexes
2pts heat running
Rd1 - Fire tic 1 - 2 ERPPCs
Heat spikes to 122pts (120+2)
30 DHS cools mech to 62pts at end of Rd1

Rd 2 mech continues running 5 more hexes
2pts heat
Heat rises to 64pts
Fires tic2 - 1ERPPC
Heat spikes to 124pts
Rd2 - cools down to 64pts

Rd 3 mech runs another 6 hexes
2pts heat
Heat rise to 66pts
Fires tic3 - 1ERPPC
Heat scale spikes to 126pts
End Rd3 cools to 66pts / tic1 would be ready in Rd4.

Rd 4 mech still running
2pts heat
Heat rises to 68pts
Pilot can fire tic1 again (120heat), heat up to 186/cooldown 126pts for shutdown, or change to chain fire.

*****************************
Simply trying to put things into perspective, that MWO in many aspects is closer to Solaris VII and its 2.5 sec rounds than it is to BT's 10 sec rounds, especially since S7 has cooldown timers (delays). Every PC game has interpreted the heatscale and cooldown timers scaling differently since then.

If you take firing those weapons in MWO, without the ghost heat, and current MWO heat scale 30+(# HS*type). For a TW with 26DHS (10 true + 16semi)

Alpine firing 1 ERPPC gets to 14%, 2 ERPPC gets it up to 35%ish, 3 kicks in ghost heat approx 86%.

River City - 1 abt 21% / 2 abt 43% / 3 w/GH 94%

The 3ERPPC is closer to where it hits the heat scale when compared to S7. Reducing or locking the heat capacity to a lower level, increasing the cooldown timer on long range energy weapons would have the potential of having players reconsider their weapon load. Then also adding 1 or 2 additional heat thresholds that would restrict speed, more line like the current C-XL/ST loss movement penalty (and remove side penalty from it), has additional potential of more changes to load outs.

/shrugs I do not see any of that happening though. So we will continue with the laser vomit and the few mechs that can dish it out on both sides

MWO is neither BT nor S7, but part of balancing items out is to have something on both sides. And the majority of the MW games negated several balancing aspects, but then they were also not aimed for a purely PVP environment either.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 December 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[STEF_]

Scanz, on 13 December 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

group gost penalty for
LL - from 3 to 2
ML and SL - from 6 to 5
srm from 4 to 3

Never read anything about instant pinpoint convergence, right?

[Nightshade24]

El Bandito, on 14 December 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

1. I want 8v8 for Solo-Q. Insta TTK increase.

2.




MW4 doesn't even have laser duration or Gauss charge. You can die in MW4 in two alphas from a single mech even piloting an Assault mech.

Acctually.... MW4 has a mechanic that you can't kill a person until he has 1 hp left in a segment.... so assuming your load out isn't 4 x Long tom cannon direct hit or those crazy 5 Clan ER PPC+ designs... you need about 3 in the same place.... just nit picking.... 3 alpha strikes isn't much of a difference to 2 when you compare to MW: O's... 5-ish+? ^^

[Hotthedd]

UncleTouchy, on 14 December 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

For those mechs that need to alpha to be viable on the battle field, quirks should be applied, such as certain light mechs.

I believe that if certain mechs NEED to Alpha in order to be viable, that is a problem of game design.

[GorlockTheDestroyer]

Hotthedd, on 14 December 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

I believe that if certain mechs NEED to Alpha in order to be viable, that is a problem of game design.

OMGFK##### yes there is, but they arent gonna do anything about it.

Minimum
Viable
Product

In know you're trying to be snarky with your comment but you've earned this like.

[Antares102]

Hotthedd, on 14 December 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

I think you misunderstand me.

Let's take your AC/5 at 80% reduction for example: It would do 1 point of damage per trigger pull, but could fire 5 times in 10 seconds. (Of course ammo would need to be increased per ton by the same 80%, and heat per trigger pull reduced) Therefore the Alpha strike would ALSO be one fifth as damaging. TTK goes up due to spread, but DPS remains the same.

Well ok misunderstood then. But I thought reducing the DPS and increasing the TTK was the discussion here.
We need lower DPS and lower alpha at the same time.

Edited by Antares102, 14 December 2015 - 06:59 AM.

[Hotthedd]

UncleTouchy, on 14 December 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

OMGFK##### yes there is, but they arent gonna do anything about it.

Minimum
Viable
Product

In know you're trying to be snarky with your comment but you've earned this like.

I wasn't trying to be snarky at all. I was highlighting one of your points for emphasis.

Antares102, on 14 December 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

Well ok misunderstood then. But I thought reducing the DPS and increasing the TTK was the discussion here.
We need lower DPS and lower alpha at the same time.

I won't disagree. I was trying to reconcile your original point not being lore friendly to show how it COULD fit into the lore/rules.

[adamts01]

UncleTouchy, on 14 December 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Heat cap is not heat scale.
Heat scale is ghost heat.

So your timby comment, though true in that is was helped(very little), is wrong in how you've applied it here.

The issue with your cheetah comment is also wrong as you've misinterpreted heat scale vs heat cap.
Yes the cheetah can alpha and with a lower heat cap would fill his heat bar up to a significant number. Forcing him to bug out rather than hang around and alpha away at will.

I'm not totally solid on what's trying to be said still.... So by heat scale, you mean the rate at which heat is added? So make the weapons hotter?

And also, after 2 or three shots you have to cycle your weapons in the cheetah, you don't usually bug out. Increasing cooldown would make that mech more dangerous, no matter what you did with the cap. Making the weapons hotter would lower it's dps of course, but that would be a universal nerf to even he crappy mechs that barely eek out an existence with lasers as it is.

[C E Dwyer]

Increase cool down, DPS instantly lowered.

DPS is where it is, because that is where P.G.I. or as some might say, Sean Lang wants it

[NextGame]

Add some new armour types that actually do stuff to mitigate types of damage, problem solved (other than out of timeline)

http://www.sarna.net.../Category:Armor

Option 2, stop whining about your mech getting junked yet again due to your piloting skills or lack thereof

No more nerfs.

Edited by NextGame, 14 December 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Jae Hyun Nakamura, on 13 December 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

Isn't increase of TTK exactly what PGI did in the last patch?

Not really.