413 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Aegis Kleais™, on 08 February 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Customization is, IMO, a critical aspect to the enjoyment of this game.

If I know I can only roll in one of the official variants, we've in essence limited the pilots's ability to tweak the Mech to their own personal strengths and instead have to go with a "lowest common denominator" variant which, chances are, may help them in some areas but hurt them in others.

Timber Wolf Prime...2 LRM20, 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, 1 MPL and 2 MG. If I want to drop the MG and MPL in favor of putting more armor on it, I can't. If I wanted to keep the LRM20's but drop the laser weaponry and instead bring bigger ballistics, I can't. Another variant may have the ballistics I want, but it comes with weaker LRM10's, which I didn't want to give up. Variants are good starter kits, but I really feel that we need the ability to create our own loadouts; yeah it might be more expensive in the end, but I'm willing to put more money down on the ability to do so.

A bunch of If's and I can't seem premature. The Dev have spoke of, or mention Customization and or a MechLab, on more than on occasion. You may be right, maybe you won't be allowed but without any real solid proof, saying that over and over seems counter productive.

Mayhaps that is this Months big surprise. MechLab in all its .... (fill in the blank)

[Aegis Kleais]

MaddMaxx, on 08 February 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

A bunch of If's and I can't seem premature. The Dev have spoke of, or mention Customization and or a MechLab, on more than on occasion. You may be right, maybe you won't be allowed but without any real solid proof, saying that over and over seems counter productive.

Mayhaps that is this Months big surprise. MechLab in all its .... (fill in the blank)

Speculation is all we have. Mix it with large doses of anticipation, and it's a recipe for mindless banter. It's the best we have to go on (which equates to 'nothing official') until some March Mech Goodness.

[Kael Tropheus]

So if we allow massive customization:
What is the point of being an omni-mech? You just negated half the clan advantage.
Whats the point of individual mech types? All mechs are created for a reason on the field. Allowing massive changes to weapons not only negates this but negates chassis individualism. If a mech chassis with its official weapons doesnt suit your style, pick a different mech. They were built the way the were built for balance purposes. Allowing customization in a PvP game absolutely destroys the feel of battletech and any idea of balance.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Kael - this arguement has been going on since the forum opened. The arguement for comes down to 1) I want it 2) Standard mechs suck 3) We've always been able to do it. Logic has no place in many of the arguements,

[Durant Carlyle]

Aegis Kleais™, on 08 February 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Customization is, IMO, a critical aspect to the enjoyment of this game.

If I know I can only roll in one of the official variants, we've in essence limited the pilots's ability to tweak the Mech to their own personal strengths and instead have to go with a "lowest common denominator" variant which, chances are, may help them in some areas but hurt them in others.

Timber Wolf Prime...2 LRM20, 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, 1 MPL and 2 MG. If I want to drop the MG and MPL in favor of putting more armor on it, I can't. If I wanted to keep the LRM20's but drop the laser weaponry and instead bring bigger ballistics, I can't. Another variant may have the ballistics I want, but it comes with weaker LRM10's, which I didn't want to give up. Variants are good starter kits, but I really feel that we need the ability to create our own loadouts; yeah it might be more expensive in the end, but I'm willing to put more money down on the ability to do so.

Some things about your post, Aegis...

1. According to TT rules, the Timber Wolf is only one point short of having maximum armor on it (230 out of 231). Other games have evidently stripped armor off of the chassis for whatever reason, making you think you need more.

2. According to TT rules, you cannot change the armor anyway. Even on OmniMechs It's fixed like the engine, gyro, etc.

3. OmniMechs (Clan or Inner Sphere) are just a tad different than standard Inner Sphere designs as far as customization goes.

4. Most 'Mechs have multiple variants. It should be fairly easy to find different ones to suit individual pilots.

5. The semi-variety of variants makes for pilots who are more widely skilled -- they know how more weapons work and can adjust to them better than pilots who concentrate on certain loadouts.

6. Why are variants the 'Lowest Common Denominator"? Explain.

7. As you can tell, I'm hoping they stay true to their word about sticking to TT rules and give us some MechLab options, but not all of them like MW2 and MW3 did. Ripping out the engine for a larger/smaller one or XL/Light/etc, no; buying a more advanced variant that already has the engine tech you want, yes. Adding or subtracting heat sinks, yes; switching heat sink types, no. Adding or subtracting armor or switching armor type, no; buying a variant that has more/less armor or the right type, yes. Changing internal structure type, no; buying a variant with the right type, yes. If you cannot find a variant that has exactly what you want, then either make do with one that mostly fits your priorities or have it customized by a specialist company.

8. You want that super-customized standard IS 'Mech? Fine. Buy a variant that's similar, take it to a customization company, pay a huge C-Bill fee up front, wait a few weeks or months (in the meantime, you're piloting a regular variant - *gasp* oh no!) and then take delivery. Any regular maintenance fees are increased, as are repair fees when the 'Mech gets damaged, due to its non-standard design.

9. In other words, the 'Mechs shouldn't just be XX-ton easily-customizable walking armories. They each need their own unique style or feel, and that includes the weapons loadout as well as the visuals.

[Aegis Kleais]

Durant Carlyle, on 08 February 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Some things about your post, Aegis...

1. According to TT rules, the Timber Wolf is only one point short of having maximum armor on it (230 out of 231). Other games have evidently stripped armor off of the chassis for whatever reason, making you think you need more.

2. According to TT rules, you cannot change the armor anyway. Even on OmniMechs It's fixed like the engine, gyro, etc.

3. OmniMechs (Clan or Inner Sphere) are just a tad different than standard Inner Sphere designs as far as customization goes.

4. Most 'Mechs have multiple variants. It should be fairly easy to find different ones to suit individual pilots.

5. The semi-variety of variants makes for pilots who are more widely skilled -- they know how more weapons work and can adjust to them better than pilots who concentrate on certain loadouts.

6. Why are variants the 'Lowest Common Denominator"? Explain.

7. As you can tell, I'm hoping they stay true to their word about sticking to TT rules and give us some MechLab options, but not all of them like MW2 and MW3 did. Ripping out the engine for a larger/smaller one or XL/Light/etc, no; buying a more advanced variant that already has the engine tech you want, yes. Adding or subtracting heat sinks, yes; switching heat sink types, no. Adding or subtracting armor or switching armor type, no; buying a variant that has more/less armor or the right type, yes. Changing internal structure type, no; buying a variant with the right type, yes. If you cannot find a variant that has exactly what you want, then either make do with one that mostly fits your priorities or have it customized by a specialist company.

8. You want that super-customized standard IS 'Mech? Fine. Buy a variant that's similar, take it to a customization company, pay a huge C-Bill fee up front, wait a few weeks or months (in the meantime, you're piloting a regular variant - *gasp* oh no!) and then take delivery. Any regular maintenance fees are increased, as are repair fees when the 'Mech gets damaged, due to its non-standard design.

9. In other words, the 'Mechs shouldn't just be XX-ton easily-customizable walking armories. They each need their own unique style or feel, and that includes the weapons loadout as well as the visuals.

1&2. Understandable, however, it has been stated that the game will not be a pure TT conversion and these topics might seem to be fair game for features that didn't transpose according to TT rules into MWO.

3. Understood. The OmniMech technology was a significant handicap over IS capabilities.

4. Yes, but even if a Mech comes with 10 variants, the ability to fine-tune and allocate resources exactly as YOU see fit, I feel, is a very important feature in the game that many players might want to explore. In the event you find a Mech that you love, but no variant that meets your needs, you would be forced then to have to just deal with what the Mech came with.

5. This is true, though it could all boil down to the "Jack of All Trades/Master of None vs. Jack of 1 Trade/Master of One". Diversification is a double edged sword; good and bad at times.

6. Don't take "LCD" as a form of quality. I mean it more so as a form of commonality. In that, Variant A of Mech Chassis B will always be the same as Variant A of someone else's Mech Chassis B. There is no variance beyond that.

7. You do sound like a purist, and there's no problem with that. I think one of the neat features being a purist has going for it is the feeling of amazement you get when OmniMech technology becomes available and you have to pit your Mechs and their set variances against these Mechs who allow more finite control over loadouts. So that, in and of itself, would be an enticing proposal.

But, even for the features you listed, I feel that you would have to have about 20-30 variants per chassis to really get to a level where the player would be able to find a variant that is "good enough" for them, unless part of the appeal to variants is the fact that for your fave chassis, there might be a chance you DON'T find something that is up your alley (and if so, would have to just keep looking for something else)

8. Hey, I got nothing against regular variants; I'm sure we're all gonna have to start humbly SOMEWHERE, and I'm fine with that. But the idea of an (expensive) and (delay-incurring) variant is one I haven't thought about. I just took this all at the face value of stock Mech vs. its list of official variants.

9. Well, maybe to please both sides, we make it so that IS Mechs operate in the manner you speak of, choosing stock or variants based on what is available and moreso having the Mech dictate what you can and can't do with it; When Clan tech comes along, you then have an open choice of customization with Clan Tech, or may even just stick with the more strict loadout of the IS tech, especially if you find a variant that's up your alley. That way, both sides can enjoy a strict/loose abiding of the rules when the tech comes.

[TheRulesLawyer]

MaddMaxx, on 08 February 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

Actually, most players are simply to lazy to look it up for themselves and as such Sturm has to do it. Bless his little heart.

I don't think its them being lazy. I think its them willfully ignoring the lore in favor of the incorrectly implemented mechlabs in previous games.

[MaddMaxx]

Aegis Kleais™, on 08 February 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Speculation is all we have. Mix it with large doses of anticipation, and it's a recipe for mindless banter. It's the best we have to go on (which equates to 'nothing official') until some March Mech Goodness.

I have to ask, not based on these posts per say, but why does it seem most Speculation seem to fall on the negative side of the equation? "It can't", "They won't/don't", "It cannot" all seems the norm, with a sprinkle of appreciation thrown in from time to time.

An example might be that your first Mech is a Prime and the first changes/tweaks you make (within whatever MechLab restrictions are applicable) is your Variant B, the next Variant B. Then when you level those to Elite 1 you can mix and match which you use based on Contract needs, known Planetary environmental conditions, etc etc etc. Or you buy another Prime and begin again.

Why not speculate on the positive side. "It might", "It should/could" etc etc. Is it the ever present possibility of some disappointment really loom so large?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 February 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

TheRulesLawyer, on 08 February 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I don't think its them being lazy. I think its them willfully ignoring the lore in favor of the incorrectly implemented mechlabs in previous games.

So in other words, for many, even the Clan Omni Mechs are not good enough despite their starting with already vastly superior designs and weapons Tech?

[Bluewolf1118]

I like the hard-points for specific weapons types. It's more realistic and makes more since. As some people have already said, certain mech variants are supposed to have specific weapons types on specific points (i.e. Uziel PPC "arms" and Catapult LRM "ears")

[Exilyth]

There's no option for "allocate components to critical spaces (like in the TT)" in the poll...

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Thats the MW2/3 version I think. Please note lack of other alternatives.

[Outlaw Wolf]

If given the option, I would say being able to fit any weapon into a slot is technically doable. If they were to go to the MW4 style, then I would say that only the missile slots should be missile only, because a laser can easily replace a regular balistic weapon by swaping a few parts.

[Strum Wealh]

Outlaw Wolf, on 08 February 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

If given the option, I would say being able to fit any weapon into a slot is technically doable. If they were to go to the MW4 style, then I would say that only the missile slots should be missile only, because a laser can easily replace a regular balistic weapon by swaping a few parts.

If they do go a more "MW4-esque" hardpoint route, I could see different slot types as a good way to differentiate BattleMechs from OmniMechs.

BattleMech slot types:
1.) Energy
2.) Ballistic
3.) Missiles
4.) Equipment

OmniMech slot types:
1.) Omni Direct Fire (allows Energy, Ballistic, and Equipment)
2.) Omni Missiles (allows Missiles and Equipment)

The type and distribution of slots would vary from chassis to chassis, as well as between variants of a given chassis.

Having that kind of set-up would emphasize the more flexible nature of OmniMechs' weapon and equipment loads (in contrast to the inflexible nature of the basic 'Mech components), while still placing some (reasonable, IMO) limitations on what one can and cannot do with any particular 'Mech.
By contrast, the non-OmniTech BattleMechs would have more restrictive weapon and equipment placement options, but would - unlike their OmiMech brethren - be able to modify a number of their basic components.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 08 February 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Well, if I could choose, and those were the only options...
...I would have a 'Mech customization system like the one in MechWarrior 3, with the usage of critical space points and all, however, depending upon the extent and complexity of the alterations planned for a chassis, they'd cost C-bills and take any time from some few hours to day or two to be completed, sort of like repairs.

That's not to say you couldn't exchange the missile launchers in a Catapult for a PPC or two; you might just have to remove each of the two LRM15s it mounts, and replace them with another weapon, one at a time, if you wanted to use it in the next match.
Omnis could always get their weapon loadout modified in a couple of hours.

Of course, critical points are not spread evenly thorough the chassis, so it's not possible to put suff wherever you like.

And taking the information from recent developer announcements into account, you may not want to load your entire chassis with Medium Lasers as that would not only make them particularly susceptible to be destroyed by enemy weapons fire, but also force you to turn towards - or away from, if they're installed in the back of the torso, I dunno - your enemy if you want to use them, further exposing them - so boating would be viable, yes, but not particularly dominant, well, except for Clan 'Mechs.

All just high, conceptual speculation, surely.

Edit, because I was appearingly high, myself...

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 08 February 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[Kael Tropheus]

You are still forgetting the basic structure of mechs. IS mechs were designed from the ground up with their weapon loads in mind. You run into all kinds of issues switching and swapping with abandon. Energy issues to power them, ammo feeds from the torso from bays that didnt exist in the original models. Even the Official varients require feats of engineering to make work correctly.

Since this is supposedly going to be a reboot, I have a feeling we will be limited(thats a great thing) to official varients only with equipment modules being added as they are bought and earned. No need to ruin Battletech with customization. Theres a reason things have what they have and there is no reason to change them.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Kael Tropheus, on 08 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

You are still forgetting the basic structure of mechs. IS mechs were designed from the ground up with their weapon loads in mind. You run into all kinds of issues switching and swapping with abandon. Energy issues to power them, ammo feeds from the torso from bays that didnt exist in the original models. Even the Official varients require feats of engineering to make work correctly.

Since this is supposedly going to be a reboot, I have a feeling we will be limited(thats a great thing) to official varients only with equipment modules being added as they are bought and earned. No need to ruin Battletech with customization. Theres a reason things have what they have and there is no reason to change them.

Yes, no need to ruin Battletech.
But what about MechWarrior?

Many fans of the computer game franchise expect to able to customize their 'Mechs, with varying degrees of freedom and could be disappointed if there wasn't such an option in MechWarrior Online, if not at launch, then later.
I for one might be such a fan, having been spoiled by EarthSiege 2, Starsiege, and only then by MechWarrior 3 and 4 - I would still play, and enjoy MechWarrior Online, but what of the others?
And there are rules in the tabletop for customization, which many players used, not to mention the legendary customized 'Mechs in cannon, such as the Yen Lo Wang; many players would be ecstatic with the prospect of fielding a one-of-a-kind, rare 'Mech, and be known for it.

In that way, couldn't customization be a way of getting people to put more money in this game?

If that is so, then it would be good to have it at some point later in the game, in my opinion.
But I'm not disputing yours - really, I'm not.

[guardiandashi]

[color="#ffa504"]Aegis Kleais™[/color] I am going to pick on you just a little about your timberwolf prime arguement

in an omnimech the POD weight and space is completely up for grabs. what this means is if I want to take a timberwolf prime I cannot dismount/change any "fixed" equipment (like the masakari's massive load of 20! fixed double heat sinks ) without making a "new mech chassis" however an omnimech CAN be customized like any other battlemech, however if the work is not done at a factory, and the prerequisite reenginering is not done than that "customized" omnimech becomes a standard battlemech.

on the other hand if you do not mess with the base chassis but only tweek the pod configuration I CAN take a timberwolf prime and dump the 2 machine guns, the er small laser, and the 1 ton of mg ammo, and replace them with an extra 2 tons of lrm ammo and call it a timberwolf prime B, or a timberwolf xyz configuration and its cool
I can also take the twolf prime, and dump the 2 er large lasers the er small, the mg's and ammo, and the medium pulse laser, and replace the er large lasers with er ppc's and that is also fine.

additionally in game that "refit" either one ... is only going to take ~ 30 minutes to an hour if the needed pods are available.

now lets go with a conventional battlemech lets say a marauder, if I want to take a MAD-5D marauder
which is equipped with 300xl, 16 dhs, 14 tons of armor, jump jets, 2 er ppc's 2 medium pulse lasers, 1 large pulse laser, 1 streak srm2 with 1 ton of ammo and case. I could probabally get away with removing the case, but I could not move it to the other torso, or install it without access to a mech factory if I wanted to pull the large puilse laser I can do it, but its going to take about 2 hours to do so, removing and replacing the medium pulse lasers with standard mediums? again ~2-4 hours per gun if I wanted to pull the srm2 streak, and the large pulse laser (freeing up 8.5 tons) I could do it and replace the large pulse laser with a LRM15, and 2 tons of ammo swapping the srm bin to a lrm bin, and adding an additional ton of ammo) this would be legal, but would likely take (in game) hours to accomplish, wheras an omni mech based on the marauder chassis could do it in under an hour.

[Yeach]

Exilyth, on 08 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

There's no option for "allocate components to critical spaces (like in the TT)" in the poll...

see http://mwomercs.com/...ed/page__st__40

[Pinkamena Pie]

Kael Tropheus, on 08 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

You are still forgetting the basic structure of mechs. IS mechs were designed from the ground up with their weapon loads in mind. You run into all kinds of issues switching and swapping with abandon. Energy issues to power them, ammo feeds from the torso from bays that didnt exist in the original models. Even the Official varients require feats of engineering to make work correctly.

This is my reasoning for making player-fitted weapons and equipment less effective/efficient as the originally fitted items.
This would let the customisation crowd still have their cake, but would still keep more emphasis on canon mechs and varients. Even better, it would mean that the penalty for making small characterful tweaks would be close to insignificant overall, whilst pilots who insist on abusing customisation by completely rebuilding mechs into something different would be the ones facing significant performance penalties.