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If Ghost Heat Allows 6Cmpl + 2 Clpl, Then The Following Should Be Allowed:


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#21 Aresye

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:07 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 17 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is why Power Draw system is infinitely better than Ghost Heat.Posted Image


Agreed. And hey, they could even use it to balance tech differences fairly well (ex: Clan lasers are more powerful but drain more power...)

#22 Jman5

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:07 PM

PGI needs to do one of two things. They need to update ghost heat rules, or they need to scrap it for something new.

Personally, I would suggest they link link all lasers together. I also think Clan UACs should probably be tied together as well. That's a problem that is just waiting to happen.

#23 PurpleNinja

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:37 PM

As a tabletop player I don't like ghost heat, but I think the heat implementation is very bad also. So there's no simple solution.

#24 cazidin

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:57 PM

View PostPurpleNinja, on 17 December 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

As a tabletop player I don't like ghost heat, but I think the heat implementation is very bad also. So there's no simple solution.


Ah, but there is a simple solution. Step 1.Remove Ghost Heat. 2.Launch the idea of Ghost Heat into the nearest black hole. It may take centuries for the rocket to get there but the idea will be gone. Forever. 3.Implement heat scale. 4.Buff IS SHS, DHS and clan DHS to compensate. 4.Meaningful penalties at the upper end of said heat scale. 5.??? 6.Profit and bacon.

#25 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:59 PM

Thats very, very disingenuous.

a 380m optimal range laser alpha with a 1.12 second duration is a completely different animal to a 600m 70 point PPFLD alpha. Hell, a long range 40 point PPFLD alpha is more dangerous than that imo.

Ghost heat simply puts caps on the number of identical or very similar weapons that can be boated together, because those are the absurdly powerful combos. No one runs 6xCMPL + 2CLPL , its far too hot to be useful. You could argue that the cap on C-ERML and C-MPL should be 4, not 6, but other than that i think it does its job.

#26 Kausteck

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:19 PM

6CMPL + 2CLPLS doesn't need ghost heat, it's an instant shutdown on non-mastered mechs if you fire them all anyway.

I can fire 8MPLAS on IS mechs without any issue, ignoring the ghost heat.

So yes ghost heat is broken, but not for the reasons you stated.

Edited by Kausteck, 17 December 2015 - 04:23 PM.


#27 Troutmonkey

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:20 PM

http://www.qqmercs.c...ence-and-clans/

This was written in 2013 and is just a relevant now as it was then. Most of his predictions have come true (Gauss dominating). I honestly think this, or a similar system is the best way to solve alpha strikes, TTK, and PPFLD

Quote

Introduction

This is an ambitious and comprehensive balance proposal that is meant to be read in full; that said, this is a serious read and there is a TL;DR for those of you lacking the willpower. The thread that developed into this article has garnered nearly 150 likes and a considerable amount of positive feedback in the MechWarrior: Online forums, and I encourage you to spam the developers with this proposal if you support it. I strongly believe that this is the best (and perhaps only) solution to most of our long-standing and forthcoming balance issues, and that’s why I’ve put such an inordinate amount of time and effort into this. I would like to personally thank Tombstoner for helping solve the biggest player communication issue (weapon group reticle colors) and Phaesphoros for the terrific HUD mock-ups.

The Problem

MechWarrior: Online is my kind of ‘mech combat – it’s gritty, it’s brutal, and face-offs between skilled pilots can take minutes. Unfortunately, the introduction of host state rewind for ballistic weapons had an unintended side effect: extreme, pinpoint damage now reigns as the undisputed king. Even before the latest PPC and AC/40 craze, the Splatcat was all about putting a ridiculous alpha in a relatively small location by face-hugging. It’s a problem that has persisted all the way through Open Beta and will become exponentially worse with the introduction of the Clans.

I will be the first to acknowledge that many aspects of the game’s balance need fixing: SRM damage, LRM coring/damage, SSRM coring, pulse lasers, hit detection, etc. I also won’t deny that hardpoint restrictions, penalties for overheating, tonnage limitations, and encouraging players to run lighter ‘mechs would cut back a lot of the cheese, but none of them are sufficient to solve the largest and most systemic balance problem that MechWarrior:Online (and all of its realtime predecessors) suffers from.

The crux of the MechWarrior: Online’s major balance problems is being able to deal more than 20 or 30 points of damage to a single location in a single click. Separately, neither massive alpha strikes nor convergence is a bad thing. Together, however, they create a nasty scenario where a couple of clicks is enough to vaporize an opponent. It’s bad, both in terms of gameplay and from a Battletech lore standpoint. There’s absolutely no incentive to fire two shots at 20 damage when you could fire one for 40 damage.

The Coming Storm

Most of the solutions I see being thrown around are solutions to the current symptoms of our problem: PPCs. Heat and PPCs are being debated ad nauseum simply because they are the flavor of the month. PPC boats are a serious problem, but to ignore large ballistics is a dangerous mistake. I fear that the Tunnel Vision about the current metagame will result in PGI ignoring the impending problems that will be introduced by new ‘mechs and the arrival of the Clans.

Not many people think ballistics are a huge problem right now, but I’d argue that’s only because we don’t have a particularly scary ballistics platform in the game. The AC/40 Catapult has to sacrifice speed, and the AC/40 Jagermech is really squishy because of its profile and XL. They’re still cheesy and too good for their weight, but they have exploitable weaknesses. If, however, PGI decided to drop a Mauler, Devastator, or Thunderhawk on us, there would be untold amounts of whine.

That exact thing could be said for PPCs: if we didn’t have any assaults that could boat 4+ PPCs, they wouldn’t be nearly as reviled. Heavies have to make serious sacrifices to boat them and don’t have the armor to take serious punishment, just like the current scenario with ballistics. When an assault starts boating something unbalanced, it becomes immediately apparent.

The minute PGI releases a ‘mech that can mount 4xUAC/5s plus change and has the ability tank a good amount of damage, the community will be ******** its collective pants. Even if they add ridiculous heat penalties to the autocannons, the Gauss rifle will continue to dominate. 2xPPC + 2xGauss and 3xGauss builds are impossible to solve with heat.

Even more dangerous than new ballistic ‘mechs are the Clan ballistic weapons. The Clan UAC/20 is a mere 12 tons and 8 critical slots. The double-tap will be able to put 40 damage on a single spot. Now imagine a ‘mech with jumpjets that mounts two of them. You’re imagining a stock Hunchback IIC, and it’s absolutely terrifying. Something drastic must be done to prevent Clan assault ‘mechs from being able to kill an Atlas with a single alpha.

My suspicion is that PGI’s plan is to avoid any assault ‘mech that can boat large ballistics simply because they have no good way to balance them – which is a really ****** solution. There’s no reason that balance issues should prevent awesome ‘mechs like the Mauler from showing up.

And if ballistics weren’t bad enough, Clan missiles will bring a host of problems: half-tonnage, no-minimum-range LRMs will make previous LRMageddons look tame, and lightweight SSRM6 packs will make the Splatcats of yesterday a laughing matter. Though the arrival of the Clans is not an immediately pressing issue, it’s better to have a system in place now than to ignore the horrible balance problems for later.

The Solution

Disclaimers: PGI has my complete permission to use this system as-is or with any modifications they see fit. I would be happy to sign anything needed to prevent intellectual property from being an issue. Also, none of this has anything to do with the “Targeting Computer” piece of equipment.

My solution is to implement a scale that represents the load on the targeting computer (TCL). Each weapon would, similar to heat, have an associated targeting computer stress value (TCS). When a weapon (or group) is fired, the stress value of all about-to-fire weapons are added to the load on the targeting computer. The targeting computer load automatically dissipates at a constant rate of 100 per second.

When the load is between 0 and 100 (inclusive), there are no ill effects. When it goes over 100, all missile locks and Artemis functionality are lost, convergence stops working, and you begin to take an accuracy penalty (cone of fire) to any shots fired. Locking capability, Artemis, and convergence are not restored until the load on the targeting computer reaches 100 or below.

From 101 to 200, the accuracy penalty gets progressively worse (the cone of fire expands). Each weapon fires at its own accuracy offset so that weapons mounted in the same component fire in different directions. The pilot can continue to drive the targeting computer load up to a maximum of 500 by continuing to fire, but the effects of a targeting computer overload reach their worst at 200.

To clarify, you can’t get away with one free alpha strike; TCL values are added and penalties are applied before the shots are fired. My proposed TCS values for all weapons can be found in The Numbers section.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 17 December 2015 - 04:26 PM.


#28 Khobai

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:24 PM

They should just link all lasers in the same ghost heat group and call it a day. That would prevent mixing and matching lasers from different ghost heat groups to circumvent ghost heat. Yes ghost heat is an awful mechanic, and Id like it removed eventually, but for the time being its all we have... its an easy fix they can do it in one patch.

Quote

6CMPL + 2CLPLS doesn't need ghost heat, it's an instant shutdown on non-mastered mechs if you fire them all anyway.


Like I said, all lasers should be in the same ghost heat group. That would prevent firing large lasers and small/medium lasers at the same time. No more huge laser alphas that circumvent ghost heat.

Quote

Homeless Bill said it best a few years ago, Ghost Heat is irrelevant. It's overcome in the mechlab.


itd be quite easy to make a ghost heat system that cant be circumvented. the only reason its irrelevant now is because weapons that should be in the same ghost heat groups are in seperate ghost heat groups. put them all in the same group and ghost heat becomes unavoidable.

ghost heat should only have ever been a stopgap measure until a better system was implemented though... the problem is PGI never bothered coming up with something better that actually addresses the core underlying issues of pinpoint damage and convergence.

Quote

Ah, but there is a simple solution. Step 1.Remove Ghost Heat. 2.Launch the idea of Ghost Heat into the nearest black hole. It may take centuries for the rocket to get there but the idea will be gone. Forever. 3.Implement heat scale. 4.Buff IS SHS, DHS and clan DHS to compensate. 4.Meaningful penalties at the upper end of said heat scale. 5.??? 6.Profit and bacon.


Implementing heatscale would just turn the game into ballistic warrior online. Its a terrible idea.

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2015 - 04:35 PM.


#29 Nightmare1

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:28 PM

I just wish they'd remove Ghost Heat entirely.

#30 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:29 PM

Um ghost Alpha? make it so the Game Calculates how much damage you push out?
and if its over lets say 38 is the base it increases heat by a % for Every Point over 38?
This would be easily Modified say 38 is too low, PGI can Change it to 42 in a HotFix?
Thoughts?

#31 BigBenn

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:29 PM

I vote for ramping UP the ghost heat via one of two ways:

1> Increase the penalty % so if you dare alpha all your lasers you WILL pay the price in and probably shut down.

or, my more preferred way:

2> lower the threshold number for boated weapons, especially lasers. (LL=2, ML=4, SL=5, 2=PPC, 2=AC2/5, 1=AC10/20).

Many light mechs are running around with 30 to 40 point (or more) alphas via all lasers. It should almost be suicide to alpha all of the same weapon type let alone the same boated weapon.

If you cant boat all of the same weapon what do you think with will do to the game??? I will tell you: it will diversify the weapon load outs on mechs. Or, it will force people to spread their weapons over two or three groups. The end result: far fewer alphas which will be good for the game.

Edited by BigBenn, 17 December 2015 - 04:31 PM.


#32 Khobai

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:37 PM

Quote

2> lower the threshold number for boated weapons, especially lasers. (LL=2, ML=4, SL=5, 2=PPC, 2=AC2/5, 1=AC10/20).


The problem is you have mechs like the nova with 12 energy hardpoints.

you cant really lower the threshold below 6 for clan lasers without making the nova totally useless.


Another option is simply to decrease the damage on clan lasers but also decrease the heat. So like the CERML could be 6 damage and 5 heat instead of 7 damage and 6 heat. Still better than an ISML but only 20% more damage instead of 40% more damage... its always been dumb that the CERML does 7 damage for a 1 ton weapon. That !@#$ shouldve been nerfed ages ago. CLPL is another weapon thats needs to be looked at as well.

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2015 - 04:43 PM.


#33 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:49 PM

View PostKhobai, on 17 December 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Another option is simply to decrease the damage on clan lasers but also decrease the heat. So like the CERML could be 6 damage and 5 heat instead of 7 damage and 6 heat. Still better than an ISML but only 20% more damage instead of 40% more damage... its always been dumb that the CERML does 7 damage for a 1 ton weapon. That !@#$ shouldve been nerfed ages ago. CLPL is another weapon thats needs to be looked at as well.

Sadly in the Initial Clan Talks it was Decided
the Canon C-ER-ML Stats of (7Damage for 5 Heat),
would become (7Damage for 6Heat) as apposed to IS-ML (5Damage for 4Heat),
they should have just gone with (6Damage for 5Heat) and weapons would be more balanced,

#34 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 04:57 PM

View PostJman5, on 17 December 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

PGI needs to do one of two things. They need to update ghost heat rules, or they need to scrap it for something new.

Personally, I would suggest they link link all lasers together. I also think Clan UACs should probably be tied together as well. That's a problem that is just waiting to happen.


Where exactly does a new (or veteran) player look up ghost heat values in game?

#35 Deathlike

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 05:06 PM

View PostLyoto Machida, on 17 December 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Where exactly does a new (or veteran) player look up ghost heat values in game?


smurfy... and not tell them the website addy (and tell them to google).

:P

#36 Cementi

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 05:49 PM

View Postadamts01, on 17 December 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

30 is weak dude. What would even be the point of bringing anything but a light if everyone had the same firepower and speed is generally better protection than armor? I've never owned an assault but I'm fine with them having a stupid high alpha, they weigh 3x as much as my Jenner. Now my Clan Oxide with a 74 point alpha, 140kph speed with full armor is just stupid.


The number is up for negotiation however the point is it should be weak to promote varied loadouts instead of boats or high alpha builds. Shift things toward a dps type game. Besides even at 30 all it takes is 4 or 5 people organized when firing to melt something instantly......instead of you know 1 or 2.

#37 TexAce

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 05:57 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 17 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is why Power Draw system is infinitely better than Ghost Heat.Posted Image


I proposed power draw so many times. I think Prosperity Park did in extent too. Only thing I got in return were harsh "lunatic" comments

Edited by TexAce, 17 December 2015 - 05:57 PM.


#38 Cementi

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:00 PM

Also if the heat penalty is well defined you could push past the 30 to say 40 or even 50. Sure you pay an extra 10 or 20 heat but you can choose when it is worth it.

Honestly though a heat system closer to TT rules is what should have been done. I know a direct transfer does not work but something closer would have helped.

#39 El Bandito

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 07:10 PM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 17 December 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Even that system would be a tank to balance when based on Engine size. The I.S. XL engine, that would afford more engine and thus Power to draw is just no a viable deal with many I.S. chassis. Lights, and some Mediums may get enough bonus/benefit, but heavy STD engines would suck up all the tonnage players would want to use for extra weapons that would draw said "extra" power.

So nope. Can't see a "Power Draw" system passing the "balance" muster test here on the Forums...

P.S. But if you have a completed and balanced set of Engines and their final individual "Power Ratings" that we could Test/Kick around, that would be cool...

P.S.S. Oh and the Clans engines, sans IIC, are locked down... Posted Image


Who says the Power Draw system has to be based on engine size? Posted Image It doesn't have to. Even if that has to be the case, Std engine can just get power draw quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 December 2015 - 07:14 PM.


#40 El Bandito

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 07:13 PM

View PostTexAce, on 17 December 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

I proposed power draw so many times. I think Prosperity Park did in extent too. Only thing I got in return were harsh "lunatic" comments


It usually takes a while for people to see an alternative path. I am personally confounded to see people still defending Ghost Heat on some threads. Ghost Heat is bad, and Paul should feel bad.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 December 2015 - 07:15 PM.






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