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If Ghost Heat Allows 6Cmpl + 2 Clpl, Then The Following Should Be Allowed:


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#61 TexAce

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 01:16 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 17 December 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:


You are putting too much stock on Alpha Strikes. Know that in your so highly valued Battle Tech lore, Alpha Striking was the rare occasion, rather than the norm, like what we have now. Even if PGi removes big alpha strikes from the game, I guarantee you MWO will still go on without a hitch. Probably for the better. I personally embrace longer TTK.

Sure, there are alternatives such as CoF and delayed convergence, but they are out of PGI's programming league.

View PostKhobai, on 17 December 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:


which is different from ghost heat how? because thats what ghost heat does... forces you to chain fire your weapons. the only difference with power draw is that all weapons are basically in the same ghost heat group, making it more oppressive, and harder to circumvent. But ultimately both are horrible systems that seek to artificially limit how many weapons you can fire simultaneously.

disallowing alphastrikes is ridiculous. And thats exactly what a power draw system would do. it would eliminate alphastriking from the very game that coined the term "alphastrike". alphastriking IS battletech and getting rid of it eliminates one of the fundamental concepts of the game.

alphastriking isnt the root cause of the problem so it makes no sense to implement systems which treat it as such. The root cause of the problem is perfect aim/convergence; when all of a mech's weapons are allowed to hit the same location and utterly obliterate that single hit location. the problem is a lack of damage distribution mechanics and damage not being spread evenly enough across the hit locations of mechs.

alphastriking in battletech was perfectly balanced due to the fact that each weapon rolled a randomized hit location. But MWO skips that randomized hit location step and allows players to place all that damage in any one location of their choosing. And that right there is what causes the breakdown of the whole system. Im not advocating anything as ridiculous as random hit locations, but I do feel the game needs to implement more mechanics that help distribute damage across different hit locations (burst fire ACs, splash damage PPCs, longer burn times and lower damage on lasers, etc...). Thats a much better and more intuitive way to balance weapons that doesnt eliminate one of the very premises the game is based on (alphastriking).


My proposal for power draw put another bar onto the HUD right next to the heat bar. If you alpha strike and went over your limit your targeting computer could not handle the load and thus give up resulting in convergence turning off and the weapons shooting everywhere like with JJs. Or just spreading a bit depending on amount of overload.

The fundamental difference to current ghost heat was that it was extremely easy to understand and visualize. Ghost heat is the exact opposite. No new player can get a grasp on it.

Question how is the multiplier for streaks in ghost heat? Where is the table? Do you have the link? Do I have to go to an external site (smurfy) to actually see the numbers? See how crazy that is? It's a total mess. It's nowhere explained and not one of the new players gets it fully.

Thags the biggest reason why it has to go and get replaced by something that everyone gets after looking at it. It would take literally one sentence to explain it.

"Firing alpha strikes can result in a massive power draw which the fusion engine inside the mech can not handle and which shuts down several components inside the mech like the targeting computer and others." There. Done. Understood.

And just use the damage of each weapon as its power load. Make the cap somewhere around 40 points and call it a day. This way you easily know that if you alpha above 40 damage points you risk losing your convergence. The 40 damage points power load cap can be a variable per chassis if needed. This would also allow double heat sinks to get their real 2.0x multiplier back since not so much would depend on just heat as the balance tool.

Edited by TexAce, 18 December 2015 - 01:52 AM.


#62 Lily from animove

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 01:28 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 17 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is why Power Draw system is infinitely better than Ghost Heat.Posted Image


heat is basically some kind fo power draw system. just caled "heat" instead of power. However PGI decided to give us too much power to throw around.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 December 2015 - 08:02 AM.


#63 El Bandito

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 01:31 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 18 December 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

heta is basically some kind fo power draw system. just caled "heat" instead of power. hwever PGI decided to give us too much power to throw around.


That's the issue. Ghost Heat doesn't curb ballistics, or workarounds by mixing medium and large lasers. Power Draw does.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 December 2015 - 01:33 AM.


#64 Jun Watarase

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 01:32 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 17 December 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Why jump through all these hoops for ghost heat instead of just lowering the heat cap and adjusting heat on weapons such that it is not possible to fire a huge alpha without shutting down? It would be so much easier for everyone.


Because that does absolutely nothing to stop the ballistic boats with massive alphas. Unless you make them as hot as lasers, but then nobody would use ballistics because they would be lasers that weighed a lot...

Edited by Jun Watarase, 18 December 2015 - 01:32 AM.


#65 Lostdragon

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 06:24 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 18 December 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:


Because that does absolutely nothing to stop the ballistic boats with massive alphas. Unless you make them as hot as lasers, but then nobody would use ballistics because they would be lasers that weighed a lot...


I don't think stopping ballistic boating is on anybody's radar, ballistic boats have a lot of drawbacks already that lasers don't have, mainly ammo, weight, lack of proper convergence when leading, and lots of slots. Besides, ballistic boats already run hot as it is, especially if you double tap UACs. I run a dakka wolf build with no ghost heat and I use a coolshot almost every match.
I do hold one controversial opinion that might get me burned at the stake, but I believe Gauss rifles need to have heat added to them. No matter what you do to the charge ups, cooldowns, etc. you are never going to stop people from firing one or more GRs along with umpteen lasers or PPCs unless you put some heat on those things (or come up with some new ghost mechanic, but let's not even go there).

#66 1453 R

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 06:26 AM

In response to the original post specifically...:
A thing I wrote once.

#67 Lily from animove

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 06:26 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 18 December 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:


That's the issue. Ghost Heat doesn't curb ballistics, or workarounds by mixing medium and large lasers. Power Draw does.


why do you think when power draw would ehavily limit AC usage would people still use wepaons they can't fire? heat is exactly like power usage, now just imagine you slap a lot more heat onto your Ac. No one would use them anymore. Also why should an Ac draw much power? Aren't they conventional wepaons that just work like regular guns? that would not even by logic need a lot power.

#68 TheCharlatan

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 06:28 AM

Of course!
Because Ghost Heat isn't convoluted enough... Posted Image

Can we please get rid of it and finally adjust the heat scale?

#69 Karl Streiger

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 06:58 AM

Lilly is right
power = heat

you don't need another limiting system just do the one you have right:

of course you can mix both:

for example firing a Laser creates heat because lasers have a notorious bad efficiency and so the discharging capacitors produce much waste heat.
And of course reloading causes some additional heat.

just a very very quick painting
Posted Image
Consider this when using a fixed heat capacity of 30.

I screwed the x-axis but you should get the idea,
alpha firing is bad - because of the discharge spike and constant chain firing doesn't help either when you don't have sufficient heatsinks

#70 El Bandito

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 07:19 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 18 December 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

why do you think when power draw would ehavily limit AC usage would people still use wepaons they can't fire? heat is exactly like power usage, now just imagine you slap a lot more heat onto your Ac. No one would use them anymore. Also why should an Ac draw much power? Aren't they conventional wepaons that just work like regular guns? that would not even by logic need a lot power.


Why do you even assume ACs will take too much power to operate? Who told you that? You are simply thinking about issues that does not exist. As with anything, the power draw system values can be tweaked. The whole point of power draw is to curb big alphas, so an AC20 for example will have far larger power draw per round than an DPS weapon like the AC2.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 December 2015 - 07:27 AM.


#71 ExplicitContent

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 07:53 AM

is the propulsion for an AC round not from a powder charge? I mean, logically, there is no reason for an AC round to draw any power. Your ammo does explode after all, so they already possess their own potential energy. I do think it would be a good idea for lasers to draw power, else, how do they fire? Perhaps tying in a battery system? Chassis dictates size of the storage cell and thus the alpha draw it could support, engine size determines the rate of recharge, but maybe have the recharging affect speed? It's all an interesting and complex system, but would be inherently difficult for a noob to understand, but since when has that stood in the way?

#72 nehebkau

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 07:59 AM

@op

Consider this petition signed.
(bump)

#73 Night Thastus

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 08:03 AM

The system is extremely arbitrary and confusing for new players. If they want to keep it, fine, but we need a better indication. Someone awhile back posted an example of the heat meter that had an extra little chunk of heat show up in a different color if it was "ghost heat" thus making it not "ghost" anymore, but visible to the players.

If they aren't willing to do at LEAST that, then the system needs to be removed completely. There are ways to balance, and this isn't it, at least not in this form.

#74 Lily from animove

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 08:05 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 18 December 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:


Why do you even assume ACs will take too much power to operate? Who told you that? You are simply thinking about issues that does not exist. As with anything, the power draw system values can be tweaked. The whole point of power draw is to curb big alphas, so an AC20 for example will have far larger power draw per round than an DPS weapon like the AC2.


you said this, or at leats it would be implied by logic

View PostEl Bandito, on 18 December 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:


That's the issue. Ghost Heat doesn't curb ballistics, or workarounds by mixing medium and large lasers. Power Draw does.


because when you choose power draw similar low as heat then you are using the same as heat. So the only way your answer has logic to my post would be giving ballistics a lot power draw as well. Because if not you stick with the same problem we already have.

#75 Greyhart

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 08:48 AM

Well all this is nice but at the moment according to my poll 66% of people think ghost heat is ok.

http://mwomercs.com/...host-heat-poll/

So there is no reason to change it at all.

I know I was surprised too, but there you go. We may think there is something wrong but the majority don't.

#76 Alwrathandabout42ninjas

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 09:12 AM

lol. no. The all energy chassis from the IS side does not need a nerf. If anything they need a buff. They already have less range then clan weapons and you want to take away the poor grasshoppers ability to fire 7-8 energy? Stupid. People will just run around in generic 3 LPL builds all day. Every mech will be the same.

View PostGreyhart, on 18 December 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Well all this is nice but at the moment according to my poll 66% of people think ghost heat is ok.

http://mwomercs.com/...host-heat-poll/

So there is no reason to change it at all.

I know I was surprised too, but there you go. We may think there is something wrong but the majority don't.


I also think the current system is fine. If you nerf energy any more then everyone will just run best energy with ballistics and missiles, and the poor Grassshopper will be left in the dust, crying in the corner, dieing inside.

#77 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 09:15 AM

I feel you could just remove ghost heat entirely and just deal with the normal heat of firing all those weapons at once in the first place. It might lead to some higher alphas in some mechs like PPC boats, but with how hot PPCs already run all it would do is allow them to put out the damage of a laser boat's alpha once before they overheat anyway. It would be much easier for new players anyway.

Simply put I don't like ghost heat and don't feel it really adds much.

Edit:

Just think, 4 CLPL or 2 CLPL+6ERMLs. without ghost heat some people might actually run less damaging builds just for the sake of weapon similarity.

Edited by Dakota1000, 18 December 2015 - 09:16 AM.






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