77 replies to this topic

[Merit Lef]

Make Ghost Heat kick in at 30pt alpha regardless what you fire.

[Khobai]

Quote

I proposed power draw so many times. I think Prosperity Park did in extent too. Only thing I got in return were harsh "lunatic" comments

power draw is just a repackaged form of ghost heat. its terrible for all the same reasons ghost heat is terrible.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

power draw is just a repackaged form of ghost heat. its terrible for all the same reasons ghost heat is terrible.

The point is to curb big alphas, and Power Draw system can do it better since it can include ballistics with low heat, such as Gauss.

Also, when implemented along with Forced Chain-fire, the Power Draw system is much more friendly to newbies than GH ever will be.

And unlike under Ghost Heat, the Forced Chain-fire will help everyone to fire their weapons at precise intervals without the aid of macros. I macro-d my 6LL STK-4N, to fire at 3 by 3 at precisely 0.5 second in between, and the result is like night and day. It will make things fair for everyone.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 December 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[Inveramsay]

kapusta11, on 17 December 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Put all medium and large clan lasers in the same linked penalty group and cap it at 5.

Cap clam ERML and MPL at 5

Put all IS medium and large lasers in the same GH penalty group and cap it at 6

Done.

The max you can get for clans is 2x LPL (since individual penalty stays) + 3x ERML. Well technically 3xMPL offer more damage but they don't sync well in burn duration and range with LPLs

The max you can get for IS is 3x LPL + 3x ML. Of course lesser loadouts like 2x LPL + 4x ML are still an option

My six LL stalker is giddy with the thought of the carnage about to ensue or my direwhale with however many LPL I can fit on it. Not very well thought through

[Khobai]

Quote

The point is to curb big alphas and Power Draw can do it better since it can include ballistics with low heat, such as Gauss.

Gauss already got curbed. Last thing it needs is another nerf.

[Ghogiel]

OP doesn't really know what ghost heat is. It's not an Alpha Strike tax, its simply a boating tax because some weapons are lolz if you can boat just them and only them. It's obviously not really there to curtail max potential alpha dmg at any rate.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

Gauss already got curbed. Last thing it needs is another nerf.

You are thinking too small. If Power Draw is implemented, then Gauss nerfs can be reverted--the whole reason Gauss was nerfed in the first place was because GH couldn't do **** against it. Power Draw system can help with balancing far more the GH ever could do.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 December 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[ChewBaka]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

power draw is just a repackaged form of ghost heat. its terrible for all the same reasons ghost heat is terrible.

Actually, if you bothered to read the suggestion on how to implement power draw, you will realize that its fundamentally different.

A power draw system stops big alphas by putting a hard limit on what sort of weapons and how many of them can be fired at once. It will force you to chain fire some of your weapons.

Ghost heat still allows you to game the system by mixing up your payload in a manner that doesn't break the weapon group rules. This is what many players are already doing which is why big alphas still happen.

Edited by ChewBaka, 17 December 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

A power draw system stops big alphas by putting a hard limit on what sort of weapons and how many of them can be fired at once. It will force you to chain fire some of your weapons.

which is different from ghost heat how? because thats what ghost heat does... forces you to chain fire your weapons. the only difference with power draw is that all weapons are basically in the same ghost heat group, making it more oppressive, and harder to circumvent. But ultimately both are horrible systems that seek to artificially limit how many weapons you can fire simultaneously.

disallowing alphastrikes is ridiculous. And thats exactly what a power draw system would do. it would eliminate alphastriking from the very game that coined the term "alphastrike". alphastriking IS battletech and getting rid of it eliminates one of the fundamental concepts of the game.

alphastriking isnt the root cause of the problem so it makes no sense to implement systems which treat it as such. The root cause of the problem is perfect aim/convergence; when all of a mech's weapons are allowed to hit the same location and utterly obliterate that single hit location. the problem is a lack of damage distribution mechanics and damage not being spread evenly enough across the hit locations of mechs.

alphastriking in battletech was perfectly balanced due to the fact that each weapon rolled a randomized hit location. But MWO skips that randomized hit location step and allows players to place all that damage in any one location of their choosing. And that right there is what causes the breakdown of the whole system. Im not advocating anything as ridiculous as random hit locations, but I do feel the game needs to implement more mechanics that help distribute damage across different hit locations (burst fire ACs, splash damage PPCs, longer burn times and lower damage on lasers, etc...). Thats a much better and more intuitive way to balance weapons that doesnt eliminate one of the very premises the game is based on (alphastriking).

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2015 - 11:05 PM.

[LordNothing]

take out ghost heat and replace with ghost duration. big alphas eat a lot of power and you dont want to max your power supply. so you make the fire control system do a longer burn. this gives the target time to twist and spread the damage.

[Mcgral18]

Merit Lef, on 17 December 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Make Ghost Heat kick in at 30pt alpha regardless what you fire.

Not all alphas are created equal.

Small lasers VS Large Lasers VS Gauss VS SRMs

6 ERSmalls is 30 damage, at 200M op
3 isLPLs is 33 damage, at 365M
2Gauss is 30 at 660M
3SRM6s is 36 damage, at 270M


You'll note the two middle ones are far more effective than the top or bottom options, and that the SRMs are the least effective of the bunch, despite having the highest damage.

[Black Ivan]

I learned to dislike Ghost Heat as a bad work around for problems. The Power Draw system sounds much more reasonable to me.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

which is different from ghost heat how? because thats what ghost heat does... forces you to chain fire similar weapons. the only difference with power draw is that all weapons are basically in the same ghost heat group, making it more oppressive, and harder to circumvent. But ultimately both are horrible artificial systems that seek to limit how many weapons you can fire simultaneously.

disallowing alphastrikes is ridiculous. And thats exactly what a power draw system would do. it would eliminate alphastriking from the game that coined the term alphastrike. alphastriking IS battletech and getting rid of it eliminates one of the fundamental concepts of the game.

You are putting too much stock on Alpha Strikes. Know that in your so highly valued Battle Tech lore, Alpha Striking was the rare occasion, rather than the norm, like what we have now. Even if PGi removes big alpha strikes from the game, I guarantee you MWO will still go on without a hitch. Probably for the better. I personally embrace longer TTK.

Sure, there are alternatives such as CoF and delayed convergence, but they are out of PGI's programming league.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 December 2015 - 11:09 PM.

[STEF_]

I'll beat an hyperdead horse here, but.....
Imo, all the issues are not for the big alpha, or the heat, or whatever... BUT: instant pinpoint magic convergence.

Sadly PGI refuses to solve this, so....

edit: on a side note, despite ghost heat, ttk is never been so short like in this period

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 17 December 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You are putting too much stock on Alpha Strikes. Know that in your so highly valued Battle Tech lore, Alpha Striking was the rare occasion, rather than the norm, like what we have now. Remove big alpha strikes from the game, and I guarantee you MWO will go on without a hitch. Probably for the better.

wut? alphastriking wasnt rare at all. quite a few mech designs were built around the premise of alphastriking every turn. like the awesome for example.

a three PPC build was balanced in tabletop because each of those PPCs had to roll its own hit location which split up the damage. But in MWO those three PPCs all hit the same location (which led to PPCs getting horribly nerfed). thats a HUGE difference when it comes to lethality.

Again thats where the fundamental breakdown occurs. Its convergence of all a mech's weapons onto a location of the players choosing thats causing most of the problems.

Besides theres no guarantee that power drain will entirely fix the problem, since ultimately its just another bandaid that ignores the underlying cause of the problem in favor of a quick fix.

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2015 - 11:21 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 11:09 PM, said:

wut? alphastriking wasnt rare at all. quite a few mech designs were built around the premise of alphastriking every turn. like the awesome for example.

a three PPC build was balanced in tabletop because each of those PPCs had to roll its own hit location which split up the damage. But in MWO those three PPCs all hit the same location (which led to PPCs getting horribly nerfed). that is a HUGE difference when it comes to lethality.

Again thats where the fundamental breakdown occurs. Its convergence of all a mech's weapons onto a location of the players choosing thats causing most of the problems.

As I mentioned above, implementing satisfactory convergence mechanics is beyond PGI capabilities for now. Also, Awesome is a fringe case--most mechs were not designed to carry, must less fire 3 PPCs in the first place. Lastly, even with the full customization we have in MWO, firing 3 PPCs was not problematic until people had put additional Gauss Rifle on top of those three, once the Highlanders came out. Hence the introduction of Ghost Heat, PPC nerfs and Gauss charge. With Power Draw system, those would not have been an issue.

[Ohmlink]

I'd rather they implement a COF of some sort. Its a familiar design choice and would resolve the issue of pin point damage, front line or not.

It simply breaks the armor system.

[kapusta11]

Inveramsay, on 17 December 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

My six LL stalker is giddy with the thought of the carnage about to ensue or my direwhale with however many LPL I can fit on it. Not very well thought through

Right, as if I haven't said that individual weapon penalty should stay...

[Kilo 40]

I just want to be able to fire 6 LRM5s(30 missiles) without ghost heat, just like 2 LRM15s(30 missiles) don't have ghost heat.

and while we're at it, 4 LRM10s(40 missiles) just like 2 LRM20s(40 missiles) with no ghost heat.

[Widowmaker1981]

1) Remove ghost heat from LRM5s, or increase to 6 Actually, just remove ghost heat from LRMs entirely.
2) Reduce ghost heat cap on C-ERML and C-MPL to 5
3) Link Gauss to PPC ghost heat
4) Buff PPCs back to decent velocity levels.
5) Stop complaining about ghost heat, it does its job fine.
6) Accept that you will sometimes get killed, and have a beer to get over it.
7) Profit.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 December 2015 - 12:36 AM.