482 replies to this topic

[jaxjace]

As has been stated, a velocity buff across the board, nothing major but much love to reg PPC (Quirks scaled back accordingly)

Leave clan 15DMG ERPPCs alone, give them 1 less heat.

Allow IS to fire 3 PPC at once but not ERPPC

Increase IS LP burn time by a fraction of a second
Reduce Clan LP burn time by a fraction of a second
Reduce Clan LP Max range in line with the ER medium
Reduce Clan LP Optimal Range to 550ish

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 18 December 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

30 heattreshold and all this issus are gone. especially when overhating has serious consequences.

With the added benefit of removing every single heavy and assault with no ballistic hardpoints from the game entirely! awesome!

[Aiden Skye]

PPC = heavy draw weapon. Goose waffle = charging weapon. Goose waffle already drains enough energy to dim the cockpit lights when charging. There should not be enough energy to fire 2-3 ppcs on top of that. So limit the amount of ppcs and goose that can be fired at the same time. Fix ppcs from there.

[Almond Brown]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

It's a text tweak in the XML. Hardly difficult at all.

PPC

Buff back to 1500m/s or 1400m/s
Use same exponential curve that Clan LRMs use for min damage range @ 90m.

IS ERPPC

Buff to 2000 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14 or 13.5

Clan ERPPC

Buff to 1500 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14

Requirk all PPC quirks.

You cannot allow PPC velocities to creep up even near that of the Gauss Rifle, otherwise, quirked or not, the Synergy is just to good and then all you would see GR and (er)PPC builds and yup the Laser Meta is done, but the alternative in not really any better...

[Widowmaker1981]

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

You cannot allow PPC velocities to creep up even near that of the Gauss Rifle, otherwise, quirked or not, the Synergy is just to good and then all you would see GR and (er)PPC builds and yup the Laser Meta is done, but the alternative in not really any better...

So link Gauss to PPC ghost heat or limit firing PPCs with Gauss. That combo isnt a good excuse for PPCs to suck.

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 December 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

With the added benefit of removing every single heavy and assault with no ballistic hardpoints from the game entirely! awesome!

better this way than to bow to the tyranny of ghost heat

and btw. the value heat dissipation can be changed

[Almond Brown]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 December 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

So link Gauss to PPC ghost heat or limit firing PPCs with Gauss. That combo isnt a good excuse for PPCs to suck.

We have seen, many times in the past, what happens when "weapons" get buffed or nerfed as a whole. Why not just "quirk" more Mechs for (er)PPC's and let that be the decider. Someone mentioned the BJ-3 as an issue. Well leave its 40% Velocity quirk (+ the other PPC +3 energy based quirks). Then do the same for Ballistics ffs.

But of course, lets just LINK everything to everything then make a 40% heated Mech go Blind and fall over as according to many around here, actually being allowed to "fight" with your BattleMech should be a debilitating scenario...

Besides ,the Gauss Rifle generates 1 Heat. Multiply any number by 1 and that number remains unchanged.

Edited by Almond Brown, 18 December 2015 - 06:31 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 18 December 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

better this way than to bow to the tyranny of ghost heat

and btw. the value heat dissipation can be changed

It doesnt matter if you increase dissipation, because if you turn lasers into dps weapons, they are outclassed by ballsitics that cause screenshake and have no heat issues to start with. In order to not be dominated by DPS ballistics lasers must be able to burst. 30 heat cap removes their ability to burst, and they become suck, destroyer of nothing.

[Karl Streiger]

Aye right but the ammunition possible on our mechs let me giggle - and yes Lasers should not be able to create dps as ballistics or even missiles.
They should be the long term strategy - but when did you run dry the last time?
3 or 4 tons of ammo per weapon is the rule not the exception.
We know that you can't use rnr but what about a ammo cap? For example just twice the ammo capacity the Stock mech had +/- ammo storrage Modules or quirks

[oldradagast]

Velocity buff needed, and that idiotic and random minimum range on the normal PPC needs to go. They can tweak it to reduced damage, damage spread, or something, but having the ball of lightning magically deal no damage at 89m but full damage at 90m just breaks immersion, looks silly, and makes the PPC even less useful vs. lasers which lack minimum ranges. Of course, I'm also for removing hard minimum damage range on IS LRM's, too - give them the same scaling damage as Clans - for similar reasons.

Heat could probably be looked at, and as we all know, there are hit-reg or hit-box issues with PPC's, where they explode if they get too close to terrain, but pass right between the fingers on a mech's hand if given a chance.

Karl Streiger, on 18 December 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Aye right but the ammunition possible on our mechs let me giggle - and yes Lasers should not be able to create dps as ballistics or even missiles.
They should be the long term strategy - but when did you run dry the last time?
3 or 4 tons of ammo per weapon is the rule not the exception.
We know that you can't use rnr but what about a ammo cap? For example just twice the ammo capacity the Stock mech had +/- ammo storrage Modules or quirks

Eh... ballistics are already heavy and require aiming and are not the meta; I don't see how nerfing them with ammo limits, thus encouraging even more energy-based builds, is a good idea. People don't play laser vomit because of DPS; they play it for the instant damage and perfect accuracy, neither of which you get with ballistics.

[Karl Streiger]

You have to nerf ammunition to get a better non forgiving heat system - sound that logic no it doesn't - maybe thats the reason we don't have it yet

Or in better terms run two large Laser and deal 16dmg in 7.5s when you have 16 S
T hs - or run a ac5 that can deal damage much fester but really run empty after some shotas

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 December 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

With the added benefit of removing every single heavy and assault with no ballistic hardpoints from the game entirely! awesome!

well, she did say "overhating" would have serious consequences!

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

We have seen, many times in the past, what happens when "weapons" get buffed or nerfed as a whole. Why not just "quirk" more Mechs for (er)PPC's and let that be the decider. Someone mentioned the BJ-3 as an issue. Well leave its 40% Velocity quirk (+ the other PPC +3 energy based quirks). Then do the same for Ballistics ffs.

But of course, lets just LINK everything to everything then make a 40% heated Mech go Blind and fall over as according to many around here, actually being allowed to "fight" with your BattleMech should be a debilitating scenario...

Besides ,the Gauss Rifle generates 1 Heat. Multiply any number by 1 and that number remains unchanged.

why quirk 80 mechs when one can implement INTELLIGENT fixes to the weapon itself?

Quirks should be MINOR, and icing on the cake. They already ARE the cake in many cases. We certainly don't need more reliance on them.

Here's the deal...maybe because I'm a BAD I get away with it.... but I am willing to bet I use more PPCs than almost any Tier 1 commenting...because "1337s" don't use "bad" weapon with regularity. And I run em on almost everything, because... I like lightning. PPCs and ERPPCs are NOT actually BAD atm, even unquirked. But they are far from being a dominant factor, currently. The lie is that one NEEDS 2000 m/s to make them work, etc. Truth is, people want them to be ezmode again. Fill the skies with lightning.

There is a reason I was very specific about the number recommended, and part of that is to leave room for mechs like the AWS-8Q and 9M, the CPLT-K2, the WHK to have that little "extra" something for PPCs with quirks. But the speeds and such I recommended would leave the unquirked ones in a decent place. The danger is that the nature of PPCs makes it super easy to slip from "UP" to "OP". I would prefer to leave them a shade "under optimal" as a whole, to keep PPCgaddeon from returning.

Lastly, as an iterative buff, it leaves room to be tuned up a notch if still felt insufficient, instead of the usual 0 to OP in 2.3 second approach.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 December 2015 - 08:12 AM.

[Malagant]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

It's a text tweak in the XML. Hardly difficult at all.

PPC

Buff back to 1500m/s or 1400m/s
Use same exponential curve that Clan LRMs use for min damage range @ 90m.

IS ERPPC

Buff to 2000 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14 or 13.5

Clan ERPPC

Buff to 1500 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14

Requirk all PPC quirks.

I am curious why you think IS ERPPC should be 500m/s faster than the clan version?

[Barantor]

As an add on to the speed buffs for PPCs and the breaking they do of ECM I propose that they also break all target locks for 1 sec after you are hit. This would disrupt LRM mechs that are targeting your side and give the PPC a bit more purpose. A light with a PPC suddenly becomes a lot more of a threat as well as you try to track it's dance around you.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

why quirk 80 mechs when one can implement INTELLIGENT fixes to the weapon itself?

Quirks should be MINOR, and icing on the cake. They already ARE the cake in many cases. We certainly don't need more reliance on them.

Here's the deal...maybe because I'm a BAD I get away with it.... but I am willing to bet I use more PPCs than almost any Tier 1 commenting...because "1337s" don't use "bad" weapon with regularity. And I run em on almost everything, because... I like lightning. PPCs and ERPPCs are NOT actually BAD atm, even unquirked. But they are far from being a dominant factor, currently. The lie is that one NEEDS 2000 m/s to make them work, etc. Truth is, people want them to be ezmode again. Fill the skies with lightning.

There is a reason I was very specific about the number recommended, and part of that is to leave room for mechs like the AWS-8Q and 9M, the CPLT-K2, the WHK to have that little "extra" something for PPCs with quirks. But the speeds and such I recommended would leave the unquirked ones in a decent place. The danger is that the nature of PPCs makes it super easy to slip from "UP" to "OP". I would prefer to leave them a shade "under optimal" as a whole, to keep PPCgaddeon from returning.

Lastly, as an iterative buff, it leaves room to be tuned up a notch if still felt insufficient, instead of the usual 0 to OP in 2.3 second approach.

I also use PPCs a great deal, despite them not being all that optimal - but i think they should be slightly 'OP' compared to lasers, simply because they have a higher skill ceiling. The lowest skill ceiling being the most effective is bad for ttk overall.. but it does help to reduce the gap between the best and the average..

[Mcgral18]

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

I am curious why you think IS ERPPC should be 500m/s faster than the clan version?

It's 1 ton heavier, 5 less damage (effective or not) and 1 crit slot larger.

That should yield a better weapon in some form, ease of use in this case.

[Summon3r]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

So, as El Bandito pointed out, Russ is considering looking at MILD buffs to the PPC family to enhance use, and try to break the Laservomit Monopoly, but hopefully not replace it with a return to the PPC Meta.

So aside from better hit detection, what REALISTIC ideas do you have for making them more viable, but keeping in mind the razors edge they sit upon as potentially long range, PP-FLD weapons with no need of ammo?

And how to keep them somewhat distinctive?

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Raise Speed to 1400 m/s
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

-So: DMG 10, Heat 10, Velocity 1400 m/s, Range 90*-540/1080
*see minimum range scaling

2) The Inners Sphere ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt.
-Increase Projectile Velocity to 1500 m/s

-So: DMG 10, Heat 14, Velocity 1500 m/s, Range 810/1620


3) The Clan ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt
-Remove splash damage, increase base projectile damage to 12.5 or 13 dmg
-Leave velocity the same, or mild boost. Possibly shorter range? Hits harder, weighs less, 1 crit smaller, needs a trade off

-So: DMG 12.5/13, Heat 14, Velocity 1200-1300 m/s, Range 750/1500*
*(or 810/1620 if that is too much a trade off, but without the extra projectile speed, of limited use at extreme ranges anyhow)


these ideas are based off of a discussion I am having with Pariah Devalis, to improve the PPCs without (hopefully) overpowering them, but to give each some distinctive characteristics. Basically, the IS PPC is coolest, the IS ER-PPC the best long range, and the C-ER-PPC hit the hardest. Considering Clan Mythos and fighting style being a little more down and dirty seemed to fit, plus Clans often complain they are at a brawling disadvantage, this gives a PP-FLD alternative to the C-LPL.

***No claims the ideas are "perfect as presented", numbers may need to be tweaked, other ideas explored (hence my asking you, the forums) and for a certainty, Quirks re-assessed. But the less reliant a weapon is on quirks to be viable, the better, IMO.

Thoughts?

i can get behind all your ideas, my only point to add would be that ALL ppc variety weapons have the same speed. id be happy to keep splash dmg on the c-erppc if we got a reduced point of heat and like you said for the other ppc's 1400-1500ms MINIMUM..... i still think these weapons should be blue lightning as they were described in the books

bottom line im happy with any ppc buff as they are my weapon of choice for the 1 simple reason, they look awesome when they hit a target oh and htey look far better then little laser box weapons we have lol

[Malagant]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

It's 1 ton heavier, 5 less damage (effective or not) and 1 crit slot larger.

That should yield a better weapon in some form, ease of use in this case.

Because that is not a massive advantage at all is it?

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

why quirk 80 mechs when one can implement INTELLIGENT fixes to the weapon itself?

Quirks should be MINOR, and icing on the cake. They already ARE the cake in many cases. We certainly don't need more reliance on them.

Here's the deal...maybe because I'm a BAD I get away with it.... but I am willing to bet I use more PPCs than almost any Tier 1 commenting...because "1337s" don't use "bad" weapon with regularity. And I run em on almost everything, because... I like lightning. PPCs and ERPPCs are NOT actually BAD atm, even unquirked. But they are far from being a dominant factor, currently. The lie is that one NEEDS 2000 m/s to make them work, etc. Truth is, people want them to be ezmode again. Fill the skies with lightning.

There is a reason I was very specific about the number recommended, and part of that is to leave room for mechs like the AWS-8Q and 9M, the CPLT-K2, the WHK to have that little "extra" something for PPCs with quirks. But the speeds and such I recommended would leave the unquirked ones in a decent place. The danger is that the nature of PPCs makes it super easy to slip from "UP" to "OP". I would prefer to leave them a shade "under optimal" as a whole, to keep PPCgaddeon from returning.

Lastly, as an iterative buff, it leaves room to be tuned up a notch if still felt insufficient, instead of the usual 0 to OP in 2.3 second approach.

Na. It isn't because "you're a bad." My stats scream T1 but I have about 3k less games than the average T1 player so it put me in T2 for 'reasons.' ERPPCs are fast enough for a mid range fight (though a hair slow for long range), and people are just being lazy. ERPPC feel fantastic as a high lead skill weapon. Reminds me of a Spinfusor. Except spinfusors actually deal damage that matches up with the need to lead.

The damage and the heat is not commensurate with one another on both IS and Clan ERPPC. At all.

Sure, it feels great to nail that evasive ACH at 700 meters with two ERPPC, but the damage output any one PPC/ERPPC produce for the efforts is depressing.

I'd rather continue the theme going on where the IS get weaker but colder guns, and the Clans get hotter but stronger ones. 13 or 14 heat IS ERPPC with 15 heat but 13 damage pinpoint Clan ERPPC would be fantastic.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 December 2015 - 09:05 AM.