482 replies to this topic

[BigBenn]

The MAD-3R has a 50% quirk for PPC velocity. After using the -3R quite a bit (mastered) I strongly believe a velocity boost is all the PPC family needs. Leave everything else alone.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Arctourus, on 17 December 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

The extra slot and one less ton may allow you to fit in one more DHS, making them slightly more attractive but not necessarily more powerful.

Thanks for putting a PPC inside my LCT-1V's CT slot. Now I can fire a PPC bolt every second!

[Arctourus]

exactly

[Bishop Steiner]

Arctourus, on 17 December 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

they need to have a decent velocity across the board.....a chassis might be optimized for a ppc in such a way that it recycles faster or cools better, but it shouldn't increase the projectile speed. I don't know a good number for it, but I know that they became rather poor when the speed was nerfed about a year back.

Other than that, you can't make them run too cool or recycle too fast or else they will be overpowered. I like speeding them up, maybe scaling the minimum range damage like Bishop suggested, but here's another thought. For the IS versions, maybe decrease their weight by one ton and decrease their slot size to 2 instead of three. The extra slot and one less ton may allow you to fit in one more DHS, making them slightly more attractive but not necessarily more powerful.

can't really change the physical characteristics, unfortunately, as it breaks the stock builds the game is built around

[Bleary]

BigBenn, on 17 December 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

The MAD-3R has a 50% quirk for PPC velocity. After using the -3R quite a bit (mastered) I strongly believe a velocity boost is all the PPC family needs. Leave everything else alone.

That and reliable hit registration. At least for the standard PPC. IS ER-PPCs still need a reason for existing.

Edited by Bleary, 17 December 2015 - 07:12 PM.

[Rhent]

PPC's need a ball and tail mechanic. PPC's can only do 5pts pin point and then there is a trail for 0.5 seconds that a player can torso turn to spread. Set PPC's speed equal to an AC/5 and see how it goes.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Rhent, on 17 December 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

PPC's need a ball and tail mechanic. PPC's can only do 5pts pin point and then there is a trail for 0.5 seconds that a player can torso turn to spread. Set PPC's speed equal to an AC/5 and see how it goes.

You're proposing an effective nerf to what's already an underpowered weapon system? A PPC bolt already travels faster than an AC5 shell, runs hot as balls, and really only has FLD going for it...

[Bishop Steiner]

Rhent, on 17 December 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

PPC's need a ball and tail mechanic. PPC's can only do 5pts pin point and then there is a trail for 0.5 seconds that a player can torso turn to spread. Set PPC's speed equal to an AC/5 and see how it goes.

because they need to see even LESS use than they do now.....

[Lightfoot]

ERPPCs are too hot when you have imposed DHS 1.5. It's okay that they cap out after sustained firing, it's not okay that you need 26 double heatsinks to run 2 of them. That breaks Battle Tech mech designs. AWS-9M, Adder, Nova Cat, etc. None of these mechs work as they do in Battle Tech due to uncontrollable overheating.

[Ultimax]

BigBenn, on 17 December 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

The MAD-3R has a 50% quirk for PPC velocity. After using the -3R quite a bit (mastered) I strongly believe a velocity boost is all the PPC family needs. Leave everything else alone.

Yeah there are dozens of goofball ideas that are constantly tossed around, but a serious velocity increase so your 7 ton, hot, skill shot weapon can actually be RELIABLE as a weapon choice is the primary issue.


It is exactly what was nerfed about PPCs and it's the main reason they aren't used.


There are some other issues, for example being a bit too hot, having no lighter weapons they can synergize with and min range on standard PPCs - but the single biggest issue is velocity.



Increase velocity. See what happens, adjust from there.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

So, as El Bandito pointed out, Russ is considering looking at MILD buffs to the PPC family to enhance use, and try to break the Laservomit Monopoly, but hopefully not replace it with a return to the PPC Meta.

So aside from better hit detection, what REALISTIC ideas do you have for making them more viable, but keeping in mind the razors edge they sit upon as potentially long range, PP-FLD weapons with no need of ammo?

And how to keep them somewhat distinctive?

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Raise Speed to 1400 m/s
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

-So: DMG 10, Heat 10, Velocity 1400 m/s, Range 90*-540/1080
*see minimum range scaling

2) The Inners Sphere ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt.
-Increase Projectile Velocity to 1500 m/s

-So: DMG 10, Heat 14, Velocity 1500 m/s, Range 810/1620


3) The Clan ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt
-Remove splash damage, increase base projectile damage to 12.5 or 13 dmg
-Leave velocity the same, or mild boost. Possibly shorter range? Hits harder, weighs less, 1 crit smaller, needs a trade off

-So: DMG 12.5/13, Heat 14, Velocity 1200-1300 m/s, Range 750/1500*
*(or 810/1620 if that is too much a trade off, but without the extra projectile speed, of limited use at extreme ranges anyhow)


these ideas are based off of a discussion I am having with Pariah Devalis, to improve the PPCs without (hopefully) overpowering them, but to give each some distinctive characteristics. Basically, the IS PPC is coolest, the IS ER-PPC the best long range, and the C-ER-PPC hit the hardest. Considering Clan Mythos and fighting style being a little more down and dirty seemed to fit, plus Clans often complain they are at a brawling disadvantage, this gives a PP-FLD alternative to the C-LPL.

***No claims the ideas are "perfect as presented", numbers may need to be tweaked, other ideas explored (hence my asking you, the forums) and for a certainty, Quirks re-assessed. But the less reliant a weapon is on quirks to be viable, the better, IMO.

Thoughts?

Not bad, but probably not enough unfortunately.


Those versions of PPCs would be improved from now, but not improved enough to use them over hitscan weapons that generate less heat and have synergy with other hitscan weapons.


If you can't have a reliable PPFLD alpha of at least 30 on a mech above 55 tons - it's just not going to be worth it at all.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 December 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[DerMaulwurf]

BigBenn, on 17 December 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

The MAD-3R has a 50% quirk for PPC velocity. After using the -3R quite a bit (mastered) I strongly believe a velocity boost is all the PPC family needs. Leave everything else alone.

I'd also like to see the min-range go. It was implemented as a panic move when PPCs were 7 heat a shot. Their abysmal sustained damage is already making them bad enough in brawls. There is no need for a magic no-damage field.

Bleary, on 17 December 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

That and reliable hit registration. At least for the standard PPC. IS ER-PPCs still need a reason for existing.

ER-PPCs need to be even faster, so you can make use of their range. Excellent accuracy with no charge up would be a very strong argument for their use.

[Curccu]

Arandmoor, on 17 December 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Don't touch heat.

Don't touch damage.

Bump the optimal range. PPCs are supposed to have longer ranges than lasers. Because of laser's ease-of-use advantage, PPCs could simply double-down on their range advantage to give them a niche.

so ERPPC optimum range 1600m? with current speed I would like to see you hit something... moving at that range. And I presume we would still have 2x max range so try to hit something 2000+ meters away.

Lockon StratosII, on 17 December 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

How about we drop damage (60-70%, also remove splash), drop heat (60-70%), drop cooldown (60-70%) and increase velocity (~2000m/s). Blasphemy, right?!

It's called AC2, one of the most useless weapons in the game, still after heat reduction and "massive" crit buff.

[Mcgral18]

Curccu, on 18 December 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

It's called AC2, one of the most useless weapons in the game, still after heat reduction and "massive" crit buff.

Dat 10% too stronk

[Widowmaker1981]

Imo, nice and simple

IS PPC: Increase velocity from 1100 to 1500. Make minimum range damage scale instead of cutoff instantly.

IS ERPPC: Increase velocity from 1200 to 1800. Reduce heat to 13

C-ERPPC: Increase velocity from 1200 to 1650. Change to 1.5/12/1.5 (or leave it at 2.5/10/2.5 and reduce heat to 14)

Link Gauss into PPC ghost heat.

[Matthew Ace]

Hypothetical Question:

If damage and cooldown was the only thing you are allowed to change, how much does it take for you to even consider using it?

Edited by Matthew Ace, 18 December 2015 - 02:41 AM.

[DerMaulwurf]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 December 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

Imo, nice and simple

IS PPC: Increase velocity from 1100 to 1500. Make minimum range damage scale instead of cutoff instantly.

IS ERPPC: Increase velocity from 1200 to 1800. Reduce heat to 13

C-ERPPC: Increase velocity from 1200 to 1650. Change to 1.5/12/1.5 (or leave it at 2.5/10/2.5 and reduce heat to 14)

Link Gauss into PPC ghost heat.

I'm surprised to see the words 'nice and simple' and 'ghost heat' in the same argument. But I guess there is at least someone who likes it for anything.

Also PPFLD or not, I don't see a reason to restrict 35 alpha damage, when my laser boats throw out 60.

[Widowmaker1981]

DerMaulwurf, on 18 December 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

I'm surprised to see the words 'nice and simple' and 'ghost heat' in the same argument. But I guess there is at least someone who likes it for anything.

Also PPFLD or not, I don't see a reason to restrict 35 alpha damage, when my laser boats throw out 60.

Ghost heat is only complicated if you are a moron.

Its a viable way of dealing with the power multiplication from boating weapons without destroying those weapons when not boated. Case in point: PGI suggested two options for dealing with the perceived problem of the DW with 2xGR 2xERPPC, which were either to link PPCs into the max 2 weapon restrictions on Gauss (which is functionally identical to adding gauss into the PPC ghost heat table) or to nerf the crap out of PPC velocity. They went with the nerf to the individual weapons because a load of people cried about needlessly complicted mechanics, and what happened? PPCs were completely ruined for any use.

There needs to be a mechanic limiting the power of boated similar long range energy weapons, because its a very powerful thing to do. Delayed convergence might work but it 1) doesn't nerf mechs with tightly clustered hardpoints like the BLR and 2) is not possible with HSR anyway. Ghost heat does the job. I don't see why people have such a problem with it.

You could probably also increase the ghost heat cap on (ER)PPCs to 3 from 2 to allow single Gauss + 2PPC, but youd need to make the multiplier very punitive to prevent twin gauss twin PPC

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 December 2015 - 05:17 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Apparently someone caught some footage of me brawling with an ERPPC.



I'm not sure I should have been able to beat a pair of hurt SRM brawlers with a Gauss+ERPPC mech...but because of the moderate cooldown on the PPC, it isn't the worst choice at that role (and far better than MGs).

Gauss nerf did hurt it in this role.
I'd like to effectively use the ERPPC past 500M (~2/3rds it's effective range), but the Gauss is far better at that range.

Heat, as seen with a Basic but not Doubled mech, is a concern with a single ERPPC (and 11 DHS). Heat is an alternative way to help them, but we've gone that route before, and it lead to Brawling ERPPCs.
If you touch up the cooldown and down on heat, I guess it cuts down on DPS, and velocity up at the same time allows for a better long range weapon, worse short range weapon.

cmon, you didn't beat them, their failaim beat them.

Still an amazing killshot.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 December 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Big Tin Man, on 17 December 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Guys, I know and respect a lot of your opinions here, but you are all missing the real problem that brought the nerfing of PPC's in the first place

#neverforget
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ac5bad163cac11d

This guy. 60 point PPFLD GGCLOSE GETREKT SCRUB with 15 points of splash damage. He also had a cousin with more armor, more heatsinks but only 2 CERPPC's.

You need to make your balance decisions to stop this from coming back, while improving PPC's to a point where they're useful for all others.

Simply buffing the speed and tweaking heat will bring this meta darling back in an instant. Don't kid yourselves, it will happen. The cooldowns were not usually relevant, as it typically would 1 shot KO a damaged medium, or drop a fresh IS XL Medium with a shoulder hit. Two alpha's in 5 seconds takes the shoulder off a king crab.

Maybe the answer is to link gauss, LL, LPL's and PPC's in the same ghost heat category as high energy weapons? Apply stupidly massive penalties for more than 3 shot at once? Some other draconian measure?

THE DIREWOLF MUST BE ADDRESSED.

30 heattreshold and all this issus are gone. especially when overhating has serious consequences.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 December 2015 - 05:45 AM.